Horizon Zero Dawn leaked review?

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Digital Foundry's technical analysis work in progress -


http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-horizon-zero-dawn-ps4-pro-performance-analysis


Guessing the building is drawn in full detail at all times being close quarters. I've noticed this anomaly in other games too. What's odd though is that they didn't show any footage of the massive creatures, but apparently the house was the worst performance they encountered....ok then.

 

[Zhukov]

If anything from last gen thru now has been proven, it's that we should be steering towards more self-authored game design, with scripted, cinematic stuff being reserved only for games where there is little gameplay to be had in the first place. See Telltale.

I used to think something like this. "Cutscenes are a failure on the part of the developer" and whatnot. Not anymore though.

For one thing, "self-authored game design" is shit, has always been shit and will always be shit unless some miraculous new technology comes along. Game design is a skill and the vast majority of people playing games don't have it. Give players "the tools to make their own game and tell their own story" and 99.9999% of them will be making shit.

That said, I would prefer that developers not use cutscenes for things that are possible within the game's mechanics. If your game is a shooter and you need a scene which is all talking, then sure, cutscene it up. But if the scene is, I dunno, an exciting evacuation under fire or something, then let me play it. For example, there's a scene in Mass Effect 3 where two characters have a brief competition shooting at bottles. It happens entirely within dialogue, with the player choosing whether or not they hit the final target or deliberately miss. It would have been so much better if they'd let players actually take the shot using the aim-and-shoot mechanics that are already a core part of the game. If they want to deliberately miss then they can, well... deliberately miss.

Also, despite not much liking Dark Souls I would actually like to see more games use its approach to storytelling. Mostly for games with shit stories. That way they can focus on the (hopefully good) gameplay, pack whatever story dross they've come up with into incidental details or descriptions or whatever and save me having to watch their shit story or listen to their shit dialogue.

 

[stroopwafel]

Also, despite not much liking Dark Souls I would actually like to see more games use its approach to storytelling. Mostly for games with shit stories. That way they can focus on the (hopefully good) gameplay, pack whatever story dross they've come up with into incidental details or descriptions or whatever and save me having to watch their shit story or listen to their shit dialogue.

The story in Dark Souls is actually really good though. It would have worked well as a straightforward narrative but breaking it up in item descriptions, environmental storytelling and the occasional NPC dialogue with this level of consistency shows a degree of skill which I think is outside most other developer's abilities. More than flavour text it creates the entire mood of the game and everything in the game comes together as one coherent vision(something brought down just a little by an unpolished final third). The game's creator apparently loves to read and enjoys playing with language and that creativity definitely shows in the game. It's a style that is unique to this one game though and I don't think it would necessarily work for other games.

I'm not overly critical of videogame stories as long as the cutscenes are not too long. They have been a staple of games since the PS1 days which is like what 20 years now. An easily digestible and largely spoon fed narrative will always draw larger crowds than no story or cutscenes or a story that is difficult to comprehend. In general I think the quality of stories in games have improved though, again, compared to 20 years ago. I absolutely loathe scripted sequences though. Espescially those that forces the player to slow-walk.

Anyways impressions of Horizon are looking good so far. Good to see there is finally an actually decent game coming from my home country for once.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Since when is reading item descriptions part of gameplay?

When you're still interactive with it and don't have to wait for anything else to play out. Imagine how frustrating it would be to play Souls if every time you find something a cutscene or scripted event is triggered to explain it.

To me, Dark Souls is basically the game telling me no story and having me read a book to get said story. In fact, just taking time out to read a single in-game book would be better because Dark Souls is basically scraps of a book that you have to put together. That's not at all what I would ever refer to as good storytelling. I wouldn't call basically pausing the game to read something interactive storytelling. Item descriptions adding some flavor/world building/extra bits/etc is perfectly fine but you shouldn't tell a story through that. There's many ways to tell a story without static cutscenes or scripted events. A Bastion-like narration springs to mind.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Was going to post that review link, ninja'd by nat's first pubic hair. I don't see why people such as Batman, Bond and Geralt can get by as strong, unchallenged unflawed protagonists, but females are instead some conspiracy infiltration to taint the medium of everything for everyone. Curious double standard seems to pop up every time.

I haven't played it yet, so no idea if Aloy is interesting or a Mary Sue like Bond and Batman, but why is Geralt namedropped as an unflawed protagonist?

I mean he's an Anachro-Liberal but he felt pretty sharply flawed what with his bad decison making skills, inability to maintain a stable relationship and can potentially be so bad at parenting his daughter dies?

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Since when is reading item descriptions part of gameplay?

When you're still interactive with it and don't have to wait for anything else to play out. Imagine how frustrating it would be to play Souls if every time you find something a cutscene or scripted event is triggered to explain it.

To me, Dark Souls is basically the game telling me no story and having me read a book to get said story. In fact, just taking time out to read a single in-game book would be better because Dark Souls is basically scraps of a book that you have to put together. That's not at all what I would ever refer to as good storytelling. I wouldn't call basically pausing the game to read something interactive storytelling. Item descriptions adding some flavor/world building/extra bits/etc is perfectly fine but you shouldn't tell a story through that. There's many ways to tell a story without static cutscenes or scripted events. A Bastion-like narration springs to mind.

you played the game, right? It's not like you only get plot from the items; there's dialogue, events and scenery to inform you of whats going on with stuff in item descriptions for off screen specifics.

Things like Anor Londo where you can find out its an illusion, the fight with Sif, Darkstalker Kaathe, the Pale Lady, Gwyn himself, all of that stuff tells a story in elements of the game while its got enough vagueness for you to fill in your own blanks.

Really, Item Descriptions is like a confirmation codex to fill in blanks in your own story which (personally) I think works better than nigh omnipresent narration.

 

[Zhukov]

I haven't played it yet, so no idea if Aloy is interesting or a Mary Sue like Bond and Batman, but why is Geralt namedropped as an unflawed protagonist?

I mean he's an Anachro-Liberal but he felt pretty sharply flawed what with his bad decison making skills, inability to maintain a stable relationship and can potentially be so bad at parenting his daughter dies?

Greatest swordsman ever who can also sling magic spells. Ladies man sex machine. Muscular and handsome. Exotic hair, cool cat eyes and dramatic facial slash scar (which doesn't discourage aforementioned ladies). Immune to disease and infertile (so no unwanted medieval consequences from all that medieval fucking.) Unnaturally long-lived. Literally hunts monsters for his day job. Cynical and detached free agent. Tragic outcast.

So yeah. Mary Sue as fuck.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Since when is reading item descriptions part of gameplay?

When you're still interactive with it and don't have to wait for anything else to play out. Imagine how frustrating it would be to play Souls if every time you find something a cutscene or scripted event is triggered to explain it.

To me, Dark Souls is basically the game telling me no story and having me read a book to get said story. In fact, just taking time out to read a single in-game book would be better because Dark Souls is basically scraps of a book that you have to put together. That's not at all what I would ever refer to as good storytelling. I wouldn't call basically pausing the game to read something interactive storytelling. Item descriptions adding some flavor/world building/extra bits/etc is perfectly fine but you shouldn't tell a story through that. There's many ways to tell a story without static cutscenes or scripted events. A Bastion-like narration springs to mind.

The thing is, when someone plays a Souls game, they're discovering everything for themselves vs having it done for them. If I was planted within that virtual world, I would be discovering its contents like that, not ripped out of it all by a cutscene or some scripted event.

I'm not familiar with Bastion, so not sure how it would fit here.

 

[Zhukov]

The thing is, when someone plays a Souls game, they're discovering everything for themselves vs having it done for them.

Haha,

Most of them "discover everything" in a Youtube lore video after someone else has put all the pieces together for them.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

you played the game, right? It's not like you only get plot from the items; there's dialogue, events and scenery to inform you of whats going on with stuff in item descriptions for off screen specifics.

Things like Anor Londo where you can find out its an illusion, the fight with Sif, Darkstalker Kaathe, the Pale Lady, Gwyn himself, all of that stuff tells a story in elements of the game while its got enough vagueness for you to fill in your own blanks.

Really, Item Descriptions is like a confirmation codex to fill in blanks in your own story which (personally) I think works better than nigh omnipresent narration.

I only know the very very basic frame of the storyline in Dark Souls. It's storytelling method did nothing for me. I didn't find out anything about Anor Londo being an illusion. Important details shouldn't be missable. The illusion stuff in Bloodborne was handled much better. I came for the gameplay, which was rather disappointing. I didn't say that a Souls game should use narration like Bastion, I'm merely brought up a storytelling method that doesn't require cutscenes or scripted events as an example.

The thing is, when someone plays a Souls game, they're discovering everything for themselves vs having it done for them. If I was planted within that virtual world, I would be discovering its contents like that, not ripped out of it all by a cutscene or some scripted event.

I'm not familiar with Bastion, so not sure how it would fit here.

I don't mind piecing together things if I find the world interesting. I like reading notes and whatnot in Dishonored. I definitely think the audience should be told at least the very basics of the story through some means. Part of discovering and learning the world is talking to other people in said world. If I was put in some world and everyone I talked to basically dicked me around with constant vagueness, it would be highly annoying. Asking someone to sit you down and tell you everything and you being told nothing are two extremes, neither of which I care for. The Bastion example was not to say a Souls game should use that storytelling method but just to show there's an inbetween of a Souls game and say a The Last of Us. Bioshock allowed you to discover its twist in the game world.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

So what's a happy medium here?

Another perspective is that perhaps in this age of instant gratification players seem to expect nearly everything to be laid out for them. The problem is that it's not even all that fun when passive entertainment like movies do it, and it's even less satisfying in an interactive medium. I'll bring up Wolf Among Us again as it's my favorite Telltale game: it's a great blend of story and gameplay, even if the gameplay is pretty basic. You unravel the story as you go through your actions, and for that reason it sticks in my mind more than games that rely merely on cutscenes to move things forward between the action.

A couple generations ago I might not have thought about it as much, as this was pretty much the norm, but little by little more games have been segueing storytelling and gameplay. I suppose I've just been increasingly drawn to the idea that the interactive element of games shouldn't have to limit itself to just gameplay, or at least have such a barrier between the two that there's a constant connnect/disconnect pattern.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Yeah, reading through all those descriptions to piece the story together isn't very engaging. My problem with it is that the player character has no way of learning this information, so it's meaningless. How do they know where this item came from, the lore behind it? They're supposed to be your avatar, becoming more informed as you role-play. I find it lazy.

Ha, I never really thought about like that but, yeah, it doesn't really make sense.

So what's a happy medium here?

Another perspective is that perhaps in this age of instant gratification players seem to expect nearly everything to be laid out for them. The problem is that it's not even all that fun when passive entertainment like movies do it, and it's even less satisfying in an interactive medium. I'll bring up Wolf Among Us again as it's my favorite Telltale game: it's a great blend of story and gameplay, even if the gameplay is pretty basic. You unravel the story as you go through your actions, and for that reason it sticks in my mind more than games that rely merely on cutscenes to move things forward between the action.

A couple generations ago I might not have thought about it as much, as this was pretty much the norm, but little by little more games have been segueing storytelling and gameplay. I suppose I've just been increasingly drawn to the idea that the interactive element of games shouldn't have to limit itself to just gameplay, or at least have such a barrier between the two that there's a constant connnect/disconnect pattern.

I don't really know what the happy medium is. I'm not a creator or artist at all. I think I'm halfway decent at figuring out why I like or dislike something after I've experienced it, but I don't really know how to go about making something I'd like. I think a wide variety of things work whether a minimalist Team ICO game or the cutscene heavy TLoU.

I think saying cutscenes shouldn't be used is only limiting because there are certain moments that they simply do the best. Yeah, it sounds good saying games should always integrate story and dialogue into gameplay but that doesn't always work best either. A character having an emotional moment/scene while you loot the room is like you being on your phone while a friend is telling you something important.

I guess one element that I do find important is that game giving you agency and it reacting to your actions/decisions. That's the main reason why people were so attached to their Commander Shepard in Mass Effect and the ending caused the reaction it did vs other games with equally bad or worse endings (like AssCreed3). Obviously, you don't have to make a full on role-playing experience like Mass Effect, you can do little things. Binary Domain did something sorta interesting with your actions/dialog towards your squadmates. There's a cool thing in Dishonored 2 were you can do something in the past that changes the present, along with a few other things that react to your actions. The Telltale games obviously fall into that as well.

I thought about something that could've been done in TLoU as well to keep the story from being so static. If Joel had the choice to do something bad (well, at least seemed bad to Ellie as she's a kid) that was the right thing at the time and then Ellie being happy with Joel for not doing it. Then during the section you play through as Ellie she has to make basically the same choice in a similar situation thus realizing Joel was wrong for doing what she wanted. Then Ellie ends up being mad at you (Joel) when they meet back up for not properly preparing her basically. Of course, if you did do the right thing, she's mad at you initially but then understanding and thankful later.

I think a game giving at least some agency to the player pulls you much more into the game (even if just a few things have actual effects) because when you know your actions can change things, the story/characters cease being completely static elements and you care more about them.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

I haven't played it yet, so no idea if Aloy is interesting or a Mary Sue like Bond and Batman, but why is Geralt namedropped as an unflawed protagonist?

I mean he's an Anachro-Liberal but he felt pretty sharply flawed what with his bad decison making skills, inability to maintain a stable relationship and can potentially be so bad at parenting his daughter dies?

Greatest swordsman ever who can also sling magic spells. Ladies man sex machine. Muscular and handsome. Exotic hair, cool cat eyes and dramatic facial slash scar (which doesn't discourage aforementioned ladies). Immune to disease and infertile (so no unwanted medieval consequences from all that medieval fucking.) Unnaturally long-lived. Literally hunts monsters for his day job. Cynical and detached free agent. Tragic outcast.

So yeah. Mary Sue as fuck.

But the dude does HAVE flaws, mutant superhuman shit asaigned, he's not great socially, not as smart as he makes out and is quite rightfully disliked by characters in universe and isnt portrayed as always in the right.

Idealised avatar, yeah, but not Mary Sue