Horrible People in Video Games: Let's actually talk about it.

[Psychobabble]

Sorry OP, I understand your point but my personal issue with the characters and story in GTA V is they are horribly cliche and poorly written. It has nothing to do with them being too edgy, just not interesting or likeable due to being made to be dicks for the sake of being dicks, and coming across as very 2 dimensional.

If you like the way the characters a written then more power to you. But please stop trying to rationalize that there is something wrong with the people that don't as it's a matter of personal taste and opinion. One size does not fit all.

I think you missed the point of what I said. Were they really written to be dicks for the sake of being dicks? Or are they a satirical look at criminals in the real world. To you they may seem cliche, but they are a reflection of criminals in modern America. Some criminals in the real world are just dicks for no reason(and I'm not counting the mentally ill when I say that). So I can't really take the point of the characters being dicks for no reason as a negative considering the fact that GTA V is satire. That's just my personal opinion.

To be honest I think both of us have missed the point. Not for any failing on our individual intellectual parts, but because we both hold very different outlooks on the characters that constitute the major portion of the actual game story.

For you they seem to be characters from something grandiose like The Tempest. Whereas to me they seem to more closely resemble characters from Gilligan's Island.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Isnt that why we read books and watch movies. To experience life, situations and people that are different to us? I dont have to be a serial killer to enjoy watching Saw or Hostel. Same with war movies or crime movies. If some people are offended by character in a certain piece of entertainment, thats fine, nothing wrong with that.

Thing is, in a game i dont want to play me and have the same experience and morals as i have in my life. Otherwise that game would suck.

 

[gargantual]

There was a bit of controversy surrounding the GTA V review on the Escapist.

A 3.5 out of 5. And that score was given mainly due to the fact that you play as 3 morally horrible people. Now I have to ask, why is this a negative against the game? I thought that horrible people were supposed to make you feel uncomfortable.

I seriously think the portrayal of morally corrupt protagonists in video games is improving because they actually have the player feeling like what they are doing is wrong. Which to me is a good thing. It shows that the player has some sense of morals (provided they pay attention to that in games).

This is a discussion we need to have in gaming. I'm not asking for the GTA V review to be changed or anything so base as that. I'm just thinking that maybe morally corrupt protagonists making the player uncomfortable should not be considered as a negative.

Let's look at Hotline Miami.
Play as a contract killer. Though the aesthetic of the game has a retro feel, the animations turn the game from a happy go lucky go and fucking kill people game into something a bit more real. Seeing headless enemies using their last bit of energy of life to crawl to safety in futility makes you feel like you've killed a person rather than just killing "game enemy #237". Enemies claw at their faces when you throw pots of boiling water at them. Dead bodies twitch. And you have no reason to do this other than to get paid.

There are very few games that can cause the player to feel wrong about that they are doing and yet still be called a good game and captivating enough to finish. The two games I mentioned do a better job of this than Manhunt of all games.


I just feel that if we are going to argue that games can be art, we have to be willing to be made uncomfortable by the games we play just as we can with movies and paintings. We've seen games that make gamers uncomfortable through a sad story so many times, I think its time to have games make the player question their own moral integrity more often.

What do you guys think? Can you also name any other games that do what GTA and Hotline Miami have done in terms of having you question your morality limits?

Another game that comes to mind for me is Spec Ops: The Line.

Sure a healthy amount of self-critical games could be useful in the scene, but I'd rather ones that celebrated constructive activities or relegated repetitively violent gameplay situations reasonably to areas in a game world that are too hostile to peacefully travel through. I.E. some RPGs. Particularly JRPGS. Youre on a quest but sometimes have no choice but to travel through dangerous areas and battle monsters within. When in towneships as a character you engage reasonably with other npcs, and have to consider resources and XP for your entire party. Male or female. Everyone is an important team utility given their distinct advantages in some situations. The framework for balance and some noble character aspirations kinda do already exist in this setup, come to think of it.

 

[WhiteFangofWhoa]

Well with one or two exceptions the cast of Twisted Metal are a bunch of bloody psychos (Sweet Tooth enjoys talking about when he tortured and killed his family). But you don't feel uncomfortable about blowing up/running over civilians since they're polygon stick figures without any character whatsoever. Also at least in the second game every character gets some ironic punishment for winning.

I haven't actually played GTA5 yet and don't care too much about spoilers, do Trevor and the others (but especially Trevor) get some kind of punishment at the end for killing so many people in the pursuit of simple, unjustified, lazy greed? Or is the overall message that crime really DOES pay, and it is the true American dream when you strip away all the glamour and old-school Mafia honour? If so there's your controversy right there since most people, particularly adults (and me), wish to believe their country and people stand for more than that. That's on top of the usual GTA 'murder whomever you like and kick prostitutes in the crotch' malarkey that gets alarmist news networks hopping.

From the initial look of it, you are three vile villainous characters with few sympathetic or redeeming qualities, and you win in the end. Now the same could be said for the Overlord games, but those were far more cartoony.

 

[Mikejames]

I can't give much opinion on GTA, but I've seen the theme done in several ways.

There are games like Fable and Knights of the Old Republic, where people enjoy playing evil characters simply because it gives you the disparate choice between being a knight of justice and an unrepentant dick. The experience is different, and the contrast almost humorous.

There are games like Spec Ops: The Line and Telltale's Walking Dead, where it's taken more seriously. They work because it succeeds in driving morally grey characters to do terrible things with the loss of morality being a main theme.

Then you have games like God of War, where you're forced to play a psycho who kills countless innocents in the name of his personal revenge. I realize that Kratos isn't supposed to be heroic, that he's this unrelatable force of rage, but just because the writers intentionally made him unlikable doesn't mean I enjoyed him as a character.

 

[NoMercy Rider]

Unfortunately, I don't have time to read all the replies so far, but I will throw in my own argument.

Generally, I play video games as a sense of escapism from the real world. Video games provide a unique experience that isn't typically duplicated in day-to-day life. I don't think there are very many people, for example, that can claim to be special ops, and even if they can, it probably wouldn't be as exciting as that portrayed in video games.

With all that being said, I am generally a mellow and kind person. Every once in awhile I enjoy playing "the other side" of society, to be a complete asshole and villain. This is probably one of the biggest reasons why I have enjoyed GTA so much. I am able to be a complete asshole and cause countless devastation, something I wouldn't even dare to do in real life (a prison sentence or death sentence doesn't exactly appeal to me).

Also, for some odd, unexplainable reason, I have always been a fan of the "gangster" culture, maybe again attributing it to a lifestyle I would never live. Not so much the "thug" culture of Franklin, but more of the old school mobsters (Sopranos for Life!).

 

[Fox12]

There was a bit of controversy surrounding the GTA V review on the Escapist.

A 3.5 out of 5. And that score was given mainly due to the fact that you play as 3 morally horrible people. Now I have to ask, why is this a negative against the game? I thought that horrible people were supposed to make you feel uncomfortable.

I seriously think the portrayal of morally corrupt protagonists in video games is improving because they actually have the player feeling like what they are doing is wrong. Which to me is a good thing. It shows that the player has some sense of morals (provided they pay attention to that in games).

This is a discussion we need to have in gaming. I'm not asking for the GTA V review to be changed or anything so base as that. I'm just thinking that maybe morally corrupt protagonists making the player uncomfortable should not be considered as a negative.

Let's look at Hotline Miami.
Play as a contract killer. Though the aesthetic of the game has a retro feel, the animations turn the game from a happy go lucky go and fucking kill people game into something a bit more real. Seeing headless enemies using their last bit of energy of life to crawl to safety in futility makes you feel like you've killed a person rather than just killing "game enemy #237". Enemies claw at their faces when you throw pots of boiling water at them. Dead bodies twitch. And you have no reason to do this other than to get paid.

There are very few games that can cause the player to feel wrong about that they are doing and yet still be called a good game and captivating enough to finish. The two games I mentioned do a better job of this than Manhunt of all games.


I just feel that if we are going to argue that games can be art, we have to be willing to be made uncomfortable by the games we play just as we can with movies and paintings. We've seen games that make gamers uncomfortable through a sad story so many times, I think its time to have games make the player question their own moral integrity more often.

What do you guys think? Can you also name any other games that do what GTA and Hotline Miami have done in terms of having you question your morality limits?

Another game that comes to mind for me is Spec Ops: The Line.

The important thing is that it's creating dialogue, which is important. It's difficult to pull off a cast of unlikable characters, however, because you don't really care what happens to them, which removes motivation from the game. I think that's what the review was saying. Not that you're necessarily wrong, I mostly agree with you, but it's a fine line to walk, and is very difficult to do well. I thought TLoU walked that line perfectly. So did Silent Hill 2, and Spec Ops: The Line. However, I think it's more effective if there's an element of choice. I did some terrible things in The Walking Dead, but they were my decisions, which makes it harder to live with. If the game tells you to push X to punch a baby, and you don't have a choice, you just feel kind of gross, but not really responsible.

Again, you can have a scripted narrative and still pull this off, like in TLoU, but it's difficult.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

That's honestly a big part of why Game reviews are so subjective: people's taste are subjective.

Some people think Kratos is the worst character ever, some people think he's awesome. Neither side is right or wrong here, they just have different preferences. You can argue that the reviewer should have tried harder to not include his personal preferences in the review, but it can be very difficult to look beyond "I don't like the main characters at all" when reviewing a game and try and focus completely on whether or not the game is well made. It'd be like trying to give a completely unbiased review of "Heart of the Swarm" when you can't stand Kerrigan.

 

[Racecarlock]

I never questioned my actions, although the torture scene did shock me a bit, but more because I was thinking about how others might respond.

They're pixels. The violence is about as relevant and important as in a WWE match. They surround it with a bunch of drama, but am I supposed to care about pixels that don't make up my protagonist?

Besides which, they have been made to more resemble players. Franklin's for the people who like driving, michael's for the people who like money, trevor's for the people who like planes and mayhem.

I am quite surprised people don't get this. I mean, how many people have rampaged, stolen cars, and been generally greedy in every GTA at this point?

I am also glad the game didn't try to make me feel bad about my actions, because that would be like a pokemon game having a PETA advertisement in it.

 

[briankoontz]

Most video game protagonists are horrible people - "monsters" after all don't exist in reality so mass murdering thousands of them in the name of saving the world makes me think a trip to the psychologist is in order for the typical protagonist with his grandiose vision of the highly beneficial effects of genociding "monsters".

My problem is not with role-playing as terrible people - my problem is both that there is little other option in games and that people like Greg Tito apparently just now realizes what a typical game protagonist *is*. Better late than never, I guess.

 

[Racecarlock]

Most video game protagonists are horrible people - "monsters" after all don't exist in reality so mass murdering thousands of them in the name of saving the world makes me think a trip to the psychologist is in order for the typical protagonist with his grandiose vision of the highly beneficial effects of genociding "monsters".

My problem is not with role-playing as terrible people - my problem is both that there is little other option in games and that people like Greg Tito apparently just now realizes what a typical game protagonist *is*. Better late than never, I guess.

Interesting, very interesting. Do you think there is room in the industry for games where you're feeding poor people or delivering food to charity? Because I think there are many people who would play games about being good people.

 

[Nouw]

I haven't played Hotline Miami, so I can't comment.

;_;

Go buy it, nouw.

Or you can just wait for a sale .

 

[lacktheknack]

I haven't played Hotline Miami, so I can't comment.

;_;

Go buy it, nouw.

Or you can just wait for a sale .

I already have it...

It's #53 in my backlog.

 

[Nouw]

I haven't played Hotline Miami, so I can't comment.

;_;

Go buy it, nouw.

Or you can just wait for a sale .

I already have it...

It's #53 in my backlog.

All in due time then....

*Patiently waits.*

 

[briankoontz]

Most video game protagonists are horrible people - "monsters" after all don't exist in reality so mass murdering thousands of them in the name of saving the world makes me think a trip to the psychologist is in order for the typical protagonist with his grandiose vision of the highly beneficial effects of genociding "monsters".

My problem is not with role-playing as terrible people - my problem is both that there is little other option in games and that people like Greg Tito apparently just now realizes what a typical game protagonist *is*. Better late than never, I guess.

Interesting, very interesting. Do you think there is room in the industry for games where you're feeding poor people or delivering food to charity? Because I think there are many people who would play games about being good people.

The majority of people in real life are good people, so you could make a role-playing game centered around pretty much anyone.

If you want to stick with the "bad boy" theme of gaming but have it be more realistic and less murderrific, how about a role-playing game centered on the social aspects of climbing the corporate ladder? It would feature in-company politics, stresses of various types which affect out-of-office social life. If executed well many of us would be happy to play it, and the opportunity for innovation is through the roof there (through the glass ceiling?).

I agree that games need to teach us something - we don't want to roleplay ourselves in a game because we already "roleplay" ourselves 24 hours a day. I'm not proposing that games become boring or tedious.

How about roleplaying as a sweatshop worker? The game could illustrate the limited choices we have to force us into such a life - perhaps our family could be poor farmers so the first game choice would be whether to stay on the farm or go to the city to take a sweatshop job. Then the realistic effects of our choices are executed through the gameplay. One aspect of sweatshop gameplay would be attempting to organize the other workers and the various obstacles to doing so.

Or how about roleplaying as a prostitute? The struggle to deal with pimps, customers, avoid STDs, deal with a society hostile to the profession, perhaps an attempt to "upgrade" one's life by moving from prostitution into the porn industry.

Once one takes the blinders off and realizes that not every game has to be about combat, monsters, enemy soldiers, and murder, a wealth of options become available.

 

[Racecarlock]

Most video game protagonists are horrible people - "monsters" after all don't exist in reality so mass murdering thousands of them in the name of saving the world makes me think a trip to the psychologist is in order for the typical protagonist with his grandiose vision of the highly beneficial effects of genociding "monsters".

My problem is not with role-playing as terrible people - my problem is both that there is little other option in games and that people like Greg Tito apparently just now realizes what a typical game protagonist *is*. Better late than never, I guess.

Interesting, very interesting. Do you think there is room in the industry for games where you're feeding poor people or delivering food to charity? Because I think there are many people who would play games about being good people.

The majority of people in real life are good people, so you could make a role-playing game centered around pretty much anyone.

If you want to stick with the "bad boy" theme of gaming but have it be more realistic and less murderrific, how about a role-playing game centered on the social aspects of climbing the corporate ladder? It would feature in-company politics, stresses of various types which affect out-of-office social life. If executed well many of us would be happy to play it, and the opportunity for innovation is through the roof there (through the glass ceiling?).

I agree that games need to teach us something - we don't want to roleplay ourselves in a game because we already "roleplay" ourselves 24 hours a day. I'm not proposing that games become boring or tedious.

How about roleplaying as a sweatshop worker? The game could illustrate the limited choices we have to force us into such a life - perhaps our family could be poor farmers so the first game choice would be whether to stay on the farm or go to the city to take a sweatshop job. Then the realistic effects of our choices are executed through the gameplay. One aspect of sweatshop gameplay would be attempting to organize the other workers and the various obstacles to doing so.

Or how about roleplaying as a prostitute? The struggle to deal with pimps, customers, avoid STDs, deal with a society hostile to the profession, perhaps an attempt to "upgrade" one's life by moving from prostitution into the porn industry.

Once one takes the blinders off and realizes that not every game has to be about combat, monsters, enemy soldiers, and murder, a wealth of options become available.

I probably wouldn't buy those games since they don't sound very fun, but apparently there is a large enough crowd of people wanting things like that that games like the cart and papers please were made, so there is definitely a niche. It's not MY niche, but there are plenty of people in it.