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IamLEAM1983

Neloth's got swag.
Aug 22, 2011
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I'm inclined to agree with Bob. Everyone and their mother has commented on how backward Twilight is as a moral vehicle and how clumsy it is as a piece of fiction, but Meyer can't possibly be some sort of one-woman conduit for regressive attitudes and odd sado-masochist tendencies. Take a look at Twilight, at the Host, at Fifty Shades of Grey - and you realize that there's a certain subset of the female gender that's beginning to speak out.

I think Meyer's more the result of a kind of reactionary bent at how, among other things, Disney has been trying to twist its "Princess" line-up into a strong, positive set of role models. They'll never retcon Cinderella into a career woman or Sleeping Beauty into an overworked female tycoon, but you definitely get the sense, starting with Ariel and going up to Tiana, that Disney has been trying to leave the whole "submissive woman waiting for her prince" angle behind for a more can-do approach to things. It makes sense, as this is what women have turned out to want and need. Nobody wants to grow up to be some sort of June Cleaver mom-slash-Homemaker of the Year. At least, not anymore.

And, well, Meyer and her ilk feel like a sort of reaction to this; like there's a group of women going "You know what? We actually do miss the romantic and slightly dangerous aspects of being submissive and meek or unable to sort ourselves out without a man! Isn't there some kind of mystique behind the thought of finding your very own troubled Prince Charming and fixing him with your gentle love?"

I don't agree, of course, but I think it makes sense, culturally. For every big change in every society, there's going to be people nostalgically looking the other way. While we're moving ahead with our stronger female characters on the whole, there's an entire social strata that needs and wants something that feels like an excessively serious take on "The Story of O".

Plus, don't forget that very sane women who wouldn't want to be abused or treated like dirt sometimes end up wanting to read stories where this happens to female protagonists. This is more or less what structures the entire romance novel industry, and it's a pretty basic part of escapism.

I'm intentionally simplifying, of course - but boys like to escape to power fantasies and *some* normally very contented and capable women like to escape to fantasies of emotional needs not being fulfilled, and to see that fictitious demand addressed in a dangerous manner. Something along the lines of the Cullen-Swan couple is obviously going to feel a lot more exciting and dangerous than your average Happy Joe and Jane Normal couple, no matter how scummy it might feel.
 

vid87

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May 17, 2010
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The way Bob put the whole "it can't be possible that she hasn't noticed these problems" combined with how other works - "50 Shades" or "Beautiful Creatures" (men choose destiny, women fated) - along with the frankly astounding phenomenon of the uproar over how insane the last Twilight movie turned out (written by the same woman who did all the other films and is currently running the show "Red Widow" which features a bad-ass mom/assassin) gives me this really weird feeling that this is all intentional subversive trolling: these women ABSOLUTELY know the problems with these stories are obvious and stupid and are producing them to piss off those who actually care about equality and empowerment and create cultural change for the better....or maybe not, but good God could you imagine?
 
Jan 12, 2012
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Entitled said:
bearlotz said:
The "Soul" aliens are basically the Yeerks from the Animorphs series.
batti said:
wait, why does the plot of The Host strangely sound like Parasyte?
The Gentleman said:
Huh, I pegged it as a "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" if-they-won fan fiction...
And the Goa'uld from Stargate.

The body-snacher parasite alien concept is not original, but it's usage here as a protagonist, and the setting after the human defeat, ARE very unique takes on the trope.

It really leads to the thought that Meyer wrote it after first hearing about the concept, before learning more details about how the subgenre usually follows, so she simply didn't know that she is doing anything unusual by making the alien the POV protagonist or by using it for a four-person-three-body love triangle.
Her twisting of the trope is unusual (but not entirely unheard of; the Tok'ra of Stargate are essentially the same thing on a species-wide level) and there's nothing wrong with the idea. However, I really doubt that she did not have a decent understanding of body-snatchers or internal arguments in possessed people, because those are pretty common themes. I'm pretty sure she knew that she was making something unusual, just as she knew that turning vampires and werewolves from sexy monsters into sexy sometimes-dangerous people was an unusual spin.

Bearlotz: I thought of Yeerks too.
 
Jun 23, 2008
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As a NaNoWriMo vet of years, I've seen a certain magic that can happen just by someone writing and writing and writing. Preferably so with a few peers around: They get a sense of grammar. They get a sense of literary flow. They get a sense of what doesn't suck. They get a sense of what makes for an awesome story.

And I am jealous as fuck not for me, but my fellow Wrimos that Stephanie Meyer's drivel got published while their carefully crafted and re-crafted prose does not.

I really don't care that her religion informs her creepy stalker-vampire plot. If she applied a bit of grammatical syntax (or at least indicated she knew she wasn't) I'd feel better. If she actually bothered to make her stuff readable and not sound like mary-sue fanfiction, I'd think she earned her cred.

I don't blame Mrs. Meyer. I blame the publishers who put her books on the shelves. I blame the people who bought and devoured her drivel. I blame the state of affairs that that is what makes money and informs a huge swath of what human relationships should look like.

And yes, I know I sound completely elitist. It's literature. We should ALL be elitist. YOU ALL SHOULD BE MORE LIKE ME!

238U
 

Zydrate

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Apr 1, 2009
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I might enjoy the Host a bit more (despite being a gay female who is utterly tired of romance triangles in general) because it doesn't butcher accepted and functional lore. Vampires have a bit of wiggle room to be creative, but fucking sparkles? Really?

Ultimately it's how the female protagonist acts around and with the two boys (Men?).

Does she act on her own accord?
Or does she exist soley to be the eventual romantic partner of one of them? (Or both, this is 2013 after all)
 

Entitled

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Aug 27, 2012
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ccdohl said:
It seems incredibly pretentious to call the woman's work clumsy, or to say that she is untalented despite the fact that her books are adored by many people around the world. The thought is that she is untalented, and her readers are just idiots.

Sure, I am not really a fan (saw most of the movies, never read the books), but it seems like everyone's starting point is that Meyer is an untalented hack. Maybe we should take a step back and reconsider that premise.
It's entirely possible that she has a good skill for picking up themes and narratives that interest a large audience, and at the same time a bad writer in terms of wordcraft.

There ARE several badly executed elements in her novels that any experienced analyst would consider clumsy, and these are NOT the same elements that har fandom adores, but the ones that it ignores.

J.K.Rowling also managed to push some very universal and effective buttons of her audience with Harry Potter, but she managed to do so while even the more elitist art analysts have admitted that her work is at least professionally/decently/skillfully put together, she is not a hack who just happened to have an interesting premise and a viewpoint.
 

Epic Fail 1977

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Dec 14, 2010
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MovieBob said:
Are you familiar with the term Outsider Art?
Nope.

MovieBob said:
It more or less means what it sounds like it means; an art world term for artwork made by people who are not themselves part of said world, i.e. they don't have formal art education, training or even don't self-identify as artists.
OH MY GOD are you serious? Am I reading this right? Formally educated "art people" have an actual named category into which they put all art that is created by plebs who lack a formal education in art? Oh my god. Oh my god. I think I need to sit and think about this fact for a while. And then read about it.
 

Entitled

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Aug 27, 2012
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ccdohl said:
I can accept that. I just think that maybe it's a little pretentious to say that she has done something wrong and that her audience just ignores it. If there is a right way to write a book, those people who love these books don't know it, and it hasn't affected their enjoyment.
There is a difference between pretentiousness (as an attitude/mannersim), and elitism (as the sociological worldview that some people are more valuable authorities on a given issue than others).

Sneering at Twilight fans, or calling them "unwashed masses" and "rabid fangirls", who are too stupid to learn about the intricacies if "proper literature", is pretentiousness.

The claim that there are skilled literary critics that can notice details that average Twilight readers don't, is elitism as a worldview.

The latter doesn't necessarily have to imply that Twilight fans are inferior beings, (it might very well be that the literary connisseours are the ones who are obsessing over useless details), but it's still a fact that the technical details of writing ARE there, and they can be interpreted.

Issue reminds me of http://xkcd.com/915/
 

Baresark

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Dec 19, 2010
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As someone who attended college studying fine arts, I really enjoyed this take on the overall ideas of how the literary world sees Stephanie Meyers works, as related to the concept of Outsider Art. I'm with you completely, the whole thing that the overall "art community" does with outsider art is completely uncomfortable. I once got into an interesting debate at a sandwich shop with a guy who eavesdropped on my conversation about, only to have him accuse me of not knowing anything about art because he is an artist and is by extension, within that community, which I could never understand (he didn't know my qualifications, if such a thing even exists in this sense). Very insightful article.
 

Baresark

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Dec 19, 2010
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Professor James said:
I wonder if there has been a personal response from ms. Meyer on all the feedback she gets?
Haha, her official response is in the form of cashing fat checks.
 

Camaranth

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Feb 4, 2011
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Like her or not Meyer created something the popular conscious really ......consumed?....(I wanted to write enjoyed or devoured but it just feels wrong). Being an "Outsider artist" probably helped her, not being aware of set tropes and choosing to ignore how common lore stated things should work. I'll admit I when I first read the book I thought sparkling vampire to be an interesting idea and then I read the rest of the book.

Here's the thing I don't read to criticize the work. I don't read looking for sentence structure or grammar (assuming that what is written isn't so bad as to be unreadable). These things help to enjoy what I'm reading but they, mostly, register subconsciously.

I'm reading to enjoy the story. Most people are the same. If you can spin a tale that people are interested in you don't need a formal education in how things are supposed to be done to make people read it.
 

Baresark

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Dec 19, 2010
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Falseprophet said:
With regards to Twilight, I have no problems with people bringing up the stupid characters, the plots where nothing happens, the sexual politics, etc. I get annoyed when people start arguing "vampires and werewolves don't work that way", as if zoologists have observed these fictional creatures in their natural state and made broad conclusions about them. I get this from the vampire LARPers I used to hang out with, many of whom perfectly accept that vampires from different fictional universes almost never work exactly the same, but for some reason Twilight is the one singled out for this.

You're damn right, Captcha!
I couldn't agree more. They were nitpicking that so bad when that was probably the only good part (as in a new fresh idea governing the two very fictional species) of the story. All I could think was, "all of the bad parts of that series, the lackluster writing, the shallow characters, the just uncomfortable and unbelievable character interactions, and your complaint is that werewolves and vampires aren't really like that?"
 

Orange12345

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Aug 11, 2011
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I don't know bob, it seems to me that Meyers books are just the "Expendables" of the movie industry. They are not trying to be art they are just trying to be fun and enjoyable and there's nothing wrong with that just because it's not aimed at the "bro's"
 

MovieBob

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Dec 31, 2008
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Epic Fail 1977 said:
MovieBob said:
Are you familiar with the term Outsider Art?
Nope.

MovieBob said:
It more or less means what it sounds like it means; an art world term for artwork made by people who are not themselves part of said world, i.e. they don't have formal art education, training or even don't self-identify as artists.
OH MY GOD are you serious? Am I reading this right? Formally educated "art people" have an actual named category into which they put all art that is created by plebs who lack a formal education in art? Oh my god. Oh my god. I think I need to sit and think about this fact for a while. And then read about it.
More or less, though in fairness it at least started out with mostly noble intentions. The animating idea was that, by the mid-20th Century, the art world and art-academia world had gotten much too intertwined; so you basically had multiple generations where most of the artists were people who went to art school (and thus had overly similar backgrounds and frames of reference) and too much of the art getting made and shown was reacting/decontructing/commenting on or about OTHER art more than anything else - and that this wasn't healthy, because you were missing out on art being made as honest creative expression of the self. So, applying "art world" exposure and critical-analysis to things like "amateur" paintings or roadside wood-carvings or "junk sculptures" that might possibly be brilliant but otherwise wouldn't be noted.

Unfortunately, it got commodified on the upscale/trendy "collectors scene" VERY quickly and it became more about the "characters" making the art than the art itself (i.e. "this is interesting, but it'd be worth MORE if the 'artist' was a one-eyed hillbilly frog-catcher who'd never seen a TV before!") which is where the condescending angle crept in.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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valium said:
I get the feeling that the "art critics" judging "outside art" as Bob puts it in this article, might actually be absolutely correct, but that fact is drowned out by it being seemingly blind hate.
Yeah, I'm not sure the problem is the critics so much as the hate bandwagon.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not a Twilight fan. I just think the bandwagon is a little ridiculous.