House and Senate overwhelmingly pass atrocious relief bill. Trump slams it and says he'll veto.

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Dreiko

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I don't think you're thinking this through. When have Democrats ever pushed for policy that put money into people's hands irrespective of their position in life? I don't think that's ever happened, or ever will.
I'm talking about the people who identify as democrats not the politicians here. I know the current democrats never have nor never will do such a thing, which is why I am all for replacing them for those who will based on the popular support and dire need for such actions.
 
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Agema

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I don't think you're thinking this through. When have Democrats ever pushed for policy that put money into people's hands irrespective of their position in life? I don't think that's ever happened, or ever will.
I take it that you have never heard of welfare programs and the minimum wage, then.
 

Agema

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Didn't the people who were asked to vote on the bill get, like, 2 hours to read 5,000 page bill before voting on it?
I think it was six hours, but...

Given that I can read and analyse a ~5000-word scientific article in a couple of hours, this isn't quite so bad as it seems. Although I do not think it is good practice as a general rule either, particularly as some bits of law may require very careful scrutiny due to unforeseen consequences.

The other thing to consider is many politicians will already be fairly well aware of what's it in and why already - it's not like these things just appear without any discussion and preparation. In some cases, it is likely to be a sort of teamwork thing where a few party members have gone through it with a fine tooth comb and they tell everyone else what the score is - the everyone else trusting them not have lied or screwed up.
 

Seanchaidh

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I take it that you have never heard of welfare programs and the minimum wage, then.
He's talking about the Dems not doing universal programs, which he's basically correct about though it seems irrelevant to the conversation.

Didn't the people who were asked to vote on the bill get, like, 2 hours to read 5,000 page bill before voting on it?
I think it was six hours, but...

Given that I can read and analyse a ~5000-word scientific article in a couple of hours, this isn't quite so bad as it seems. Although I do not think it is good practice as a general rule either, particularly as some bits of law may require very careful scrutiny due to unforeseen consequences.

The other thing to consider is many politicians will already be fairly well aware of what's it in and why already - it's not like these things just appear without any discussion and preparation. In some cases, it is likely to be a sort of teamwork thing where a few party members have gone through it with a fine tooth comb and they tell everyone else what the score is - the everyone else trusting them not have lied or screwed up.
Wait, is it words or pages?

In any case, this sort of way of passing bills is severely antidemocratic. On top of everything else that is severely antidemocratic.
 

Agema

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Wait, is it words or pages?
Words.

5000 pages will be about the size of the USA's entire national tax code. There's no chance a government bill will be that long.
 

Seanchaidh

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Words.

5000 pages will be about the size of the USA's entire national tax code. There's no chance a government bill will be that long.
5000 pages sounds really long, but 5000 words sounds way too short.

I think it actually is pages.


It's pages, although the pages are not exactly 12 point single-spaced novel-format. Perhaps on account of the poor eyesight of some members of Congress? Or so that many people can look at the same page at once? I don't know.

Spending bills are lists of concrete, independent things, not a program for approaching an issue which needs to be generally comprehensible to lawyers and judges and accountants (and possibly even people who want to follow the law), so I don't think it's weird that they'd be longer.
 

immortalfrieza

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I think all this time spent analyzing the motivation behind Trump vetoing the bill or asking for 2k is a waste. I don't care why he does something I think is good, I just care for the good thing to be done.
Which is how the U.S. government works. Anything actually beneficial to come out of any government actions are only incidental to what they are actually trying to do, which is screw over the American people and line their own pockets. This is because not a single one of the politicians gives a crap about the American people at all, much less doing their actual jobs of improving the country. They're all hopelessly corrupt to every last man and woman at all levels of government and the whole system is designed to ensure that this will always be the case.
6000 page bill? That's insane! The way the American government works is bonkers if stuff like that can even get passed. Surely it would make sense to limit the scope of a vote to one particular issue. If you want to vote on streaming, then vote on streaming, if you want to vote on tax write offs then vote on tax write offs. How does it make any sense at all to lump everything under the sun under one bill and vote on it all at once?

I hope this doesn't impact let's players at all.
It's a tactic as old as the government itself. Take a bunch of things nobody wants designed to screw everybody over and line the pockets of the politicians, lump them together with the things people actually want, emphasize the latter while downplaying the former, and vote on it all as one thing. This is because they know that doing what they should and splitting all this into separate bills and voting on them would result in the screwing everybody over and lining their pockets part to be shut down immediately. By lumping the bad with the good, they turn what should be a cut and dry "HA HA HA. No." into a big political issue where you're a "monster" trying to destroy America for the crime of simply seeing the bill for what it is.
 

Agema

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5000 pages sounds really long, but 5000 words sounds way too short.

I think it actually is pages.


It's pages, although the pages are not exactly 12 point single-spaced novel-format. Perhaps on account of the poor eyesight of some members of Congress? Or so that many people can look at the same page at once? I don't know.

Spending bills are lists of concrete, independent things, not a program for approaching an issue which needs to be generally comprehensible to lawyers and judges and accountants (and possibly even people who want to follow the law), so I don't think it's weird that they'd be longer.
Yep, fair enough, you're right, 6000 pages. Wowsers.
 
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Drathnoxis

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Yep, fair enough, you're right, 6000 pages. Wowsers.
With what seems to be an average of ~200 words a page, that comes to 1 118 600 words. With your reading/analyzing speed of ~41 words/min (may not be an accurate number, but taken from 5000/2 hours) it would take 454 hours to read the whole thing, or 19 straight days. Even if you read at 10x the speed you still couldn't get through the whole thing in less than 24 hours. In order to make it though it in 6 hours you'd need to read 3107 words/min or 15 1/2 pages a minute.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Which is how the U.S. government works. Anything actually beneficial to come out of any government actions are only incidental to what they are actually trying to do, which is screw over the American people and line their own pockets. This is because not a single one of the politicians gives a crap about the American people at all, much less doing their actual jobs of improving the country. They're all hopelessly corrupt to every last man and woman at all levels of government and the whole system is designed to ensure that this will always be the case.
Cut out that both sides bullshit. Its wrong and its poison to our political system.

 

Seanchaidh

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With what seems to be an average of ~200 words a page, that comes to 1 118 600 words. With your reading/analyzing speed of ~41 words/min (may not be an accurate number, but taken from 5000/2 hours) it would take 454 hours to read the whole thing, or 19 straight days. Even if you read at 10x the speed you still couldn't get through the whole thing in less than 24 hours. In order to make it though it in 6 hours you'd need to read 3107 words/min or 15 1/2 pages a minute.
Apparently we need to elect speed-readers to Congress.
 
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Asita

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Yep, fair enough, you're right, 6000 pages. Wowsers.
Just to expand on this for illustrative purposes:

Brandon Sanderson's Way of Kings is 1252 pages long
Alexandre Dumas's The Count of Monte Cristo (unabridged) is 1312 pages long.
Victor Hugo's Les Miserables is 1462 pages long
Wu Cheng'en's Journey to the West is around 1800 pages long

The four books combined end up around 5826 pages, only 233 pages (4.17%) longer than this 5593 page bill.
 
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Houseman

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Alexandre Dumas's The Count of Monte Cristo (unabridged) is 1312 pages long.
Victor Hugo's Les Miserables is 1462 pages long
I'm surprised that War and Peace is shorter than those two books... It certainly felt longer. The audiobook is like 163 hours
 

Agema

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Just to expand on this for illustrative purposes:

Brandon Sanderson's Way of Kings is 1252 pages long
Although the spending bill will be a more interesting read.
 

Agema

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I'm surprised that War and Peace is shorter than those two books... It certainly felt longer. The audiobook is like 163 hours
It is longer - much longer. The font size in most out of copyright classics is very small compared to modern books.
 

Asita

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I'm surprised that War and Peace is shorter than those two books... It certainly felt longer. The audiobook is like 163 hours
...The audible version by Frederick Davidson is 61 hours. Whose reading is 163?
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
That infographic is nice, but what is being described is the normal process of our legislative bodies, not criminal behavior, so number of indictments and so on is perfectly irrelevant.
You do realize that the infographic goes with the article I linked after it, right?