How Are Comics Still Niche?

[omega 616]

For me it's just no real upside.

You have the cost of the things, the question of where do you start, the question of place to put them, then when do you stop etc.

I really do want to start getting those fables books, wish I would have known of them years ago and bought them from issue one. I think when I start getting paid, I will start buying them ... though if amazon is anything to go buy, I wont be buying the £1,000+ ones.

 

[Vault101]

Distribution and public perception

I think most people don't know that there are comics beyond super Heros..abs who the hell wants to put up with all of that bulllshit? I don't care about universes or following a character until I die...

Since they even relegated to specialised shops there's no easy "in" for most people who have no idea where to start

 

[Vault101]

Personally, between the silly costumes, the crappy dialogue, and the ridiculous storylines, I've never been able to take DC or Marvel comics seriously. The films sometimes seem to mitigate the ridiculousness of it a little bit, but to be honest I'm not a huge superhero movie fan, although I do like Nolan's stuff.

That said, I do like some webcomics (albeit most of these are just for quick laughs, but I do like some serious ones like Gunnerkrigg Court and Dresden Codak). If DC and Marvel made intelligent, thought-provoking comics with relatable, likable characters, I'd probably give them a try.
...

You know Vertigo and Image exist...

 

[V4Viewtiful]

the question of where do you start

A good series doesn't need a place to start, pick up the first one you see, like it? keep collecting.

Every Comic is someone's first.

the question of place to put them, then when do you stop etc.

That's what graphic novels are for.

 

[ScrabbitRabbit]

That said, I do like some webcomics (albeit most of these are just for quick laughs, but I do like some serious ones like Gunnerkrigg Court and Dresden Codak). If DC and Marvel made intelligent, thought-provoking comics with relatable, likable characters, I'd probably give them a try.

Sometimes they do, but they tend to be one-shot alternate-continuity stories, not superhero-related (and largely the brainchild of one creative person) or major arcs with one major creative force.

The big issue I have is that writers are constantly undoing and retconning each other's plots and interpreting characters in wildly differing ways. It results in messy and convoluted lore and kills absolutely all tension as nobody ever really dies.

 

[Quadocky]

Why is it that; despite all the movies, games, merchandise, and live action tv adaptations; the comic book industry is still so small?

VERY hard to get into. Seriously, despite being a geekazoid, comics are a WHOLE new level of Nerd that I could never comprehend. There is also the fact that going into a comic book store is like going into some seedy underground market, floors never cleaned, loud people tossing dice and playing cards on some tables in the back, the smell of cigars (read: Nachos) in the air. Not to mention the awkward posters of busty women hung about here or there. (its like a strip club for manchildren is what I am getting at :v)

I've been to like 3 comic book stores and they all live up to the stereotypes in some way or another. Its spooky.

But once you get over it, looking at the impenetrable wall of comics your heart would sink as you realize that its an entirely different would and cause me to reflect as to why standard consumers don't know anything about video games aside from simple cellphone games or facebook time wasters.

The issue is: There is a HUGE canyon created by the lack of knowledge of comics or video games. If one is not well versed in either you are going to have a hard time finding something good or something you want.

 

[fix-the-spade]

Why is it that; despite all the movies, games, merchandise, and live action tv adaptations; the comic book industry is still so small?

The books are expensive.
The writing and pacing for the majority of comics is terrible, but they are still expensive.
Distribution is terrible, for anything beyond Marvel, DC and Rebellion you're going a specialist store in the UK, or the internet. If you're going to either you're a hobbyist, hobbyists don't provide volume sales.
Pay for a comic artists is beyond terrible, so quality tends not to stick around.
Pay for writers isn't much better, so they go write young adult fantasy and TV scripts.
The major publishers increasing obsession with homogeny of art and writing (especially DC).
The major publisher's obsession with T&A for teenage boys.
The prevalence of bait and switching, with an amazing cover artist, then content by someone else entirely.
The industry and fan base's obsession with continuity and minutia, people want to be entertained, not enrolled in an alternate history class.

Comics have an image problem that none of the big players are interested in fixing, they're aimed squarely at teen boys and the story, art style and scripts more often than not reflect that. Comics also lack a visual punch, in their heyday comics could show things far beyond what the movies could, now your average comic from DC or Marvel has neither the budget nor the time behind it to match the scope and spectacle of their movies. It's very easy to get people hyped for a movie with thirty seconds of action scenes, much harder with comics.

At it's deepest I think it's a problem with stagnation more than anything else, the big two like what they have and see no need to change it.

 

[Ikasury]

continuity... there is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much continuity bs to try and take in if you so much as crack open an omnibus... and even then its cherry picked... and now they keep constantly 'resetting' (least for DC) the ENTIRE UNIVERSE that its kinda ridiculous, so you try to get some level of understanding about what's been kept and what's been hawked, only to still get confused...

the only thing about comics that they seem to do consistantly is evolve in art style, their plots are still ridiculous and the universe continuity is still like trying a single wisp of sugar string from a thing of cotton candy...

i think most 'normal' people are too lazy to try delving into those depths and hash out a sense, let alone ya know, READ ANYTHING!! even if its only DIALOGUE!! RAWR!! (i cannot tell you how many people i've suggested a comic only to get the response 'but that's reading' and serious dimwit, its only dialogue... like 5 lines maybe a page -.- its mostly pretty pictures!!) so... ya know, that's a thing...

comics are that weird niche between books and movies, visual and mental, you can't just sit there and watch the whole thing someone else did for you you have to make up the voices and connecting action yourself, you can't just get immersed into a full blown fantasy all in your head because the pictures are right there TELLING you what's going on without words... its a very strange place in medium i suppose...

my vote still goes to most people are lazy morons that don't even realize half the stuff they're watching/playing comes from a freakin' comic book :3

 

[ninjaRiv]

I think a lot of people like the idea of comics more so than actually reading them. They see the movies, love them but don't want to put the effort into actually reading them. Those that do, see the price of individual issues and say "No, fuck that." Which is fair enough, it's the exact reason I don't try a lot of new books.

I think another problem is, the big two tend to not offer anything new. They try too hard to emulate the movies and, at times, each other. Black Nick Fury is in the 616 universe, now. Why? Fuck if I know, I avoided the shit out of that storyline. All I know is that his name is Nick Fury Jr and he's white Fury's son or something. Anyway, when you go from the movie to the comics, now, you're not seeing anything new; just the same thing you saw on the big screen.

The continuity excuse is bullshit, though. Just admit you can't be bothered to actually read the comic book. Or that you just don't want to read comics in general. Don't blame continuity. At the end of the day, it won't ruin your enjoyment of a book. Knowing the back story will improve your enjoyment, yes, but not knowing it won't ruin it for you. Everything you NEED to know if in the movies and TV shows. Failing that, it's on Wikipedia. It's on the internet in general. There are videos about getting into comic books by the likes of Comic Book Girl 19. So continuity is not an obstacle, it's an excuse. See a character in a movie you like? Check him/her out online. There's always a list that will tell you where to start. Read one of the books featuring the character. Google anything you don't understand (Which, honestly, won't be a lot. Very little, in fact).

 

[Wizardly-K9]

Why is it that; despite all the movies, games, merchandise, and live action tv adaptations; the comic book industry is still so small?

The books are expensive.
The writing and pacing for the majority of comics is terrible, but they are still expensive.
Distribution is terrible, for anything beyond Marvel, DC and Rebellion you're going a specialist store in the UK, or the internet. If you're going to either you're a hobbyist, hobbyists don't provide volume sales.
Pay for a comic artists is beyond terrible, so quality tends not to stick around.
Pay for writers isn't much better, so they go write young adult fantasy and TV scripts.
The major publishers increasing obsession with homogeny of art and writing (especially DC).
The major publisher's obsession with T&A for teenage boys.
The prevalence of bait and switching, with an amazing cover artist, then content by someone else entirely.
The industry and fan base's obsession with continuity and minutia, people want to be entertained, not enrolled in an alternate history class.

Comics have an image problem that none of the big players are interested in fixing, they're aimed squarely at teen boys and the story, art style and scripts more often than not reflect that. Comics also lack a visual punch, in their heyday comics could show things far beyond what the movies could, now your average comic from DC or Marvel has neither the budget nor the time behind it to match the scope and spectacle of their movies. It's very easy to get people hyped for a movie with thirty seconds of action scenes, much harder with comics.

At it's deepest I think it's a problem with stagnation more than anything else, the big two like what they have and see no need to change it.

Why do people keep coming back to the big two? The best-selling comic of 2013 was published by Image Comics. Marvel and Dc monopolized slots 2-10 on the top 10 best sellers of the year list with all their reboots. I find that hilarious by the way. The Big Two went through all the trouble of rebooting their series for sells, and they managed to take every spot except for number one; which is held by a long-running series created by an indie publisher.

The irony.

 

[Gary Thompson]

The reasone avengers can kill while the comics lag is because the movies have been carefully crafting their own continuity, rather than drawing on the comics.

Also buying comics these days is a pain. I mean you can't follow a single story arc without buying at least three different titles. And then to figure out what's going on you have to tunnel through the gordian maze of continuity and continuity reboots etc.


Movies basically skip all that and create their own self contained continuity which is much more accessible.

There's also the fact that comics... aren't equally available everywhere.

Being niche isn't a bad thing though... I mean look at what it's done for Manga. Niche allows you to tell tight focus stories that can actually show some development and lasting change in characters and most importantly.. they can end. There's nothing worse than a story that's been dragged on for so long that it just feels tired.

But most popular superheroes have been around since the 40's.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

Geez, this thread was made for me

The first problem is just where to -find- these things locally. Say what you will of Gamestop, but at least it's closer than the nearest comic store (in my decently sized college neighborhood) and I can be reasonably sure of what to expect going in there.

You are correct
I get mine delivered however I prefer the shops, to be honest

The second problem is the kind of bang you get for your buck. I know some people say comics are "overpriced" and all that, but that isn't what I mean. Comics can be read -really- quickly, and with their current prices... it just doesn't really seem worth it to quite a few people, myself included. If they were a bit longer then the price would be justified, but even then it just feels odd that I'd be paying for what essentially amounts to five minutes of reading.

this is a problem, especially since page count has been reduced by 2 pages for the cheapest floppies but Marvel are criminal for charging $4 for a 20 page story.

Thirdly there's a problem just breaking -into- them. I don't know if this is common in the industry, but where the heck do you start with comics? You have to keep up with whatever is the latest "arc", find where it started, start purchasing comics belonging to that arc-- and let me tell you it doesn't get easier when it's a "big" one like the Marvel Civil War, where it was spread out across several different books. You can't just go into a store and pick up a comic, hoping that it puts everything in context. Heck, even if it you buy it and understand some of the things behind it, it's still difficult to tell what part you're "Starting" from with a comic.

Every comic is someone's first, if you can't get into the first thing you pick up either the writer isn't for you or the writer didn't do an adequate job.

Fourthly and finally... this is more of a personal thing, but I just don't really care what happens in the stories. There have been so many deaths and resurrections using increasingly ridiculous methods (going to heaven and asking God to bring "The Thing" back to life is one of them) and so many world-spanning dangers it's amazing that New York isn't completely destroyed. Every time progress seems to be made in one character's arc it almost inevitably turns out to be "another part of the multiverse" or the villain they finally beat was "just a doom bot". I like having consistent story telling, something that starts and something that ends. No doom-bots, no multiverses, and barely any "resurrections".

You are looking in the wrong places DC and Marvel have what you described and we comicbook Nerds call them "Classics" or "Legendary".
I won't list them all but rest assured not comics are a convoluted mess.

I really don't want to come off as arrogant, and I'm sorry if I am... but to me, comics just don't seem worth it. I enjoy Manga (though not to the point of being a "weaboo") but that's mostly because it usually takes longer than five minutes to finish a book of it, it's numbered so you know where to start, it's easier to pick up the storyline and start from the beginning, and most importantly... it's a story. With the possible exception of Dragonball, you're following the story of very real characters, where death isn't cheap, things progress, and change isn't met with "M-MULTIVERSE! NOW!"

you need to keep in mind how manga is published, they release a few pages in the anthologies at a time then they collect the arc in bulk, Manga are essentially just small graphic novels. (plus there's no colorist most of the time so less time to make, among other things)

I mean, I hate Naruto, but even that for all it's arcs, has the story actually progressing. Characters have died and don't appear to be coming back, and the characters are actually developing without it being some "strange alternate universe".

understand Marvel and DC characters are (mostly) licensed serial properties so most can only simulate growth because if they go to far like Spider-man did (not my opinion but Spidey being, married with a stable job and possibility of a child made the character bad) those in charge will over correct and reboot the ever luvin F*ck out of the character.

Or you can like a consistent revitalized version of characters (Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy and Nova by Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning, yes, recommending) and then some other overrated creator steps in doing his own thing instead of continuing what made the last style popular (Brian Michael Bendis). Sometimes it's a role of the dice :/

It's easier with older comics though, Like Sandman or Spider-man 2099. but that's just the big 2, Image, Dark Horse, Vertigo, Valiant, Oni Press and a bunch of others have more (maybe better) things to offer, even in the superhero genre.
If you read independent comics you'll find they're a lot like manga, same artist and writer, planed growth of characters and owned by the creators, among other details.


Oh and if none of you have read The Crow yet, do it NOW!

 

[Wizardly-K9]

The reasone avengers can kill while the comics lag is because the movies have been carefully crafting their own continuity, rather than drawing on the comics.

Also buying comics these days is a pain. I mean you can't follow a single story arc without buying at least three different titles. And then to figure out what's going on you have to tunnel through the gordian maze of continuity and continuity reboots etc.


Movies basically skip all that and create their own self contained continuity which is much more accessible.

There's also the fact that comics... aren't equally available everywhere.

Being niche isn't a bad thing though... I mean look at what it's done for Manga. Niche allows you to tell tight focus stories that can actually show some development and lasting change in characters and most importantly.. they can end. There's nothing worse than a story that's been dragged on for so long that it just feels tired.

What? Manga isn't niche in Japan. It's a cultural staple there. It's everywhere. You know how sometimes you'll be on the bus or the train and there will be some guy playing an iphone game, or some older woman doing a crossword puzzle? That's what manga is in Japan. It's not a big deal there, its just... there.

Also, older women do read manga. So do older men, because manga has different genres for different ages, genders, and sexuality. Western comics, or at least the Big Two, don't. There's too much homogeneity going on. The Japanese comic industry never has to worry about stagnation thanks to their diversity. We do.

 

[Something Amyss]

Personally, between the silly costumes, the crappy dialogue, and the ridiculous storylines, I've never been able to take DC or Marvel comics seriously. The films sometimes seem to mitigate the ridiculousness of it a little bit, but to be honest I'm not a huge superhero movie fan, although I do like Nolan's stuff.

But even if you don't like 'em, there are millions of people out there going to watch Spider-Man in his spandex, Superman in his spandex, and Thor in his....Well, not spandex, but his camp battle armour. So you'd think there'd be more people translating into comics sales. Except I think Tippy nailed it.


Offtopic: Does Time Warner Cable really think that making me type "switch to time warner cable" in the Captcha will somehow make me switch to Time Warner Cable? Even assuming that subliminal messaging works, it's supposed to be a little more subtle...[/quote]

YVAN EHT NOIJ!

Honestly, these capthas have the opposite effect on me anyway. Like, I can guarantee you I will never choose DISH as long as I have a choice.

For myself, it's bang for the buck.

Which is exactly why I stopped buying them back in the 90s.

I mean, there are other factors, I think, but I bet this is a huge factor. Finishing a single story can cost waaaaay more than a movie night. Even if you factor in overpriced snacks.

 

[Ratty]

What? Manga isn't niche in Japan. It's a cultural staple there. It's everywhere. You know how sometimes you'll be on the bus or the train and there will be some guy playing an iphone game, or some older woman doing a crossword puzzle? That's what manga is in Japan. It's not a big deal there, its just... there.

Also, older women do read manga. So do older men, because manga has different genres for different ages, genders, and sexuality. Western comics, or at least the Big Two, don't. There's too much homogeneity going on. The Japanese comic industry never has to worry about stagnation thanks to their diversity. We do.

Yeah, but they're also cheap there. You get a big serialized anthology with poor printing on ultra cheap paper in black and white. This allows for them to take more risks and appeal to different audiences. (If you really like a series/story you can always wait for the higher quality collected reprint.) It's a superior system in my opinion, because it allows for creator control.

America's comic book industry is full of a long history of creators not having the rights, or getting credit or proper compensation for what they create. Just look at Bill Finger or Jack Kirby, or so many others.
A manga artist can develop their characters and plot in a self-contained story, rather than signing them away to a big corporation to be mashed up into one giant shared universe. Which is run by a corporation exactly how you would expect one to run it. Remember when DC wouldn't allow Batwoman to have a lesbian marriage and the creative team (who had had a successful and acclaimed run) decided to quit? Yeah that's just one recent example.

For a time in the 1980s there was a small black and white independent comics boom in America, which perhaps most notably produced the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, but that was pretty much over by the start of the 90s. Today I think most start-up creators are inclined to just cut out the middle man and try to launch webcomics. Even some old-school independents have taken on this model. Like the Pini's who put up all of their Elfquest comics for free. http://www.elfquest.com/gallery/OnlineComics3.html

It's no wonder that kids today read manga rather than American comics. Financially and in terms of variety of appeal, because let's face it most indie comics are impossible to find unless you know where to look, and most people don't know they even exist, manga is a better deal.

 

[Redd the Sock]

Because people are lazy:

Availability: Last year I got a lot of questions about where I got a Walking Dead omnibus collection. I usually had to restrain myself from the answer "the bookstore in the mall dubmass" and put it in a more polite form. The comic section at my store isn't hidden, or small. There are 6 or so 8 foot tall shelves in the middle of the store for people to come and browse. Safe bet, any major book chain in your area probably has something similar covering superhero books, manga, indies, and more. I don' know why people get put off by browsing and then ***** they can't find things.

History: Okay, the hypocrisy that people complaining about history in comics can keep up with years of the Karadashian's dating lives or Coronation Street aside, we have wikipedia now. It's a great place to keep up or catch up with what is missed. I would have killed for something like it when all I had were talking to older fans or features in Wizard magazine for insight to stuff. Frankly, comics aren't Agatha Christie: it's not that hard to catch up if you come in in the middle.

Perception: Walking Dead, FAbles, Warlord of Mars, Saga, Y: the Last man, far too much manga, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Star Wars, Danger Girl, and that's just the crap I read. There's a lot out there if people quit making poor assumptions about superheroes being all there is. It follows from availability: people don't look and make assumptions they really have no basis for. Marvel and DC are the only companies out there devoted heavily to the superhero, and the only comapnies that don't try to be somewhat self contained.

Cost for time: this I'll grant you, but good books can be re-read (I've been through my Ninja High school collection at least 10 times) so you can get your money's worth in time if you get something you really like.

Childishness: this might carry more weight if the same stories weren't topping the box office. Face it, if you were part of the group that put the Avengers above a billion dollars, you really can't say it's the childishness of the stories keeping you away.