How Can Gearbox be THAT Incompetent When It Comes to Programming?

[Azaraxzealot]

This is about Borderlands 2, I hear Randy Pitchford complain that the game was not designed for the level cap to be raised.

HOWEVER

I know that if Gearbox actually did proper coding it wouldn't be that hard to fix the problems of raising the level cap.

For example:
int current_level = 1; (has to start at 1, right?)
const int MAX_LEVEL = 50; (declaring it as a variable is VERY useful as I'll explain later)

if(current_level != MAX_LEVEL)
{
add_exp([parameters])**; ([parameters] is the parameters used to determine how much exp is added, what that does is pass in the parameters to the function called "add_exp()" which calculates how much exp is added then actually adds it to the player's character.
}
else
{
add_exp(0);
}

And that's all they'd need to do.

**For those who don't know programming, add_exp is a "function" just like a typical math function like the "quadratic formula" or "Pythagorean theorem". You notice how no function/equation you'd need to memorize in math requires you to know solid numbers but instead constants like pi or "e" or variables like x or b? Well the same SHOULD work for functions in programming. ESPECIALLY for an RPG where math is king.

So if they simply declared the MAX_LEVEL as a constant variable and used it wherever it's needed for a formula then all you need to do is change the variable's value and all the math will be the same, the results will just come out different. Like... it should be able to produce new loot and higher level enemies automatically.

But since Mr. Pitchford claims the game was NOT made to easily raise the level cap it makes me think they just put the number in manually wherever it was needed in an equation which is just stupid. Because the way I show would make it easy to change the max level and even just release a patch for that.

Then again I'm only a novice programmer and there could be levels of detail I just can't comprehend, however, if there are any other programmers out there, what do you all think?

 

[piinyouri]

I don't think they eever intended for it to be raised in the first place, thus why no allowances were made for it to be raised.

It's similar to how the Dark Arisen DLC for Dragon's Dogma is being released as a whole new game because they did not put any "hooks" in the default game that would allow for easy additions to be put in.

As I understand it, GB is only raising the level cap (or attempting it) because of extreme pressure from fans.

 

[TehCookie]

It's not about the coding, it's about the balance. Allowing the player to go over level 50 would make them completely overpowered. Or if they added in different tougher enemies for level 50+ players it's a lot harder to guess how powerful they would be since it would vary greatly if they had a good character build or not so they would end up with enemies they would be too tough to handle unless you carefully choose you skills.

I haven't played the game myself there was an article on it somewhere.

 

[WoW Killer]

What a bizarre criticism...

Do you really think a team that's made a full blown cross platform triple-A game doesn't understand basic variables? It's got nothing to do with that, that much I can say for sure.

What I gathered, was that it had to do with the skill trees, and which effects were available in combination with one another. For instance, you can (with the cap at level 50) only achieve one top tier skill at a time. Say for Maya, the skills Ruin and Thoughtlock are both Action Skill Augments, changing the effect of Phaselock. The different effects might be conflicting with one another. Even if they don't, there's still balance considerations as others have said.

 

[DoPo]

But since Mr. Pitchford claims the game was NOT made to easily raise the level cap it makes me think they just put the number in manually wherever it was needed in an equation which is just stupid.

Ugh...dude, sorry but did you just take programming 101 just a short while ago? You certainly come off that way. I am pretty sure Gearbox doesn't have issues with hardcoding the variables. You should be aware that even if you softcode everything [footnote]by the way, a word of advice "const int MAX_LEVEL = 50;" - you're better off putting this somewhere in the config options for your applications if you really want it easy to change. Otherwuse it isn't leaps and bounds above hardcoding.[/footnote] you can STILL hit issues with expandability. In this case it's sheer complexity that hinders the operation - it's their maths that has been optimised for the max level (whatever it is in Borderlands) not their code.

By the way, just as an aside - you can read this article on soft and hardcoding [http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Soft_Coding.aspx].

 

[DazZ.]

The game being designed and the game being coded a certain way are tremendously different things, do you honestly think they couldn't program a variable?

Also you should probably have < instead of != and I'm guessing "add_exp(0);" will do nothing at all so may as well leave it out.

 

[Comocat]

My understanding has been its more a problem with balance than with knowledge of basic coding.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/121998-Gearbox-Cant-Increase-Borderlands-2s-Level-Cap-Without-Breaking-It#

That being said, I have no idea why anyone would buy DLC for a game like Borderlands that doesn't add stats to their characters. The whole point of the game is to shoot at stuff for XP to get better at shooting stuff. Between this and the recent Aliens game, I think they need to lay off whatever they are smoking at HQ.

I was going to make some jokes at your naiveté, but then I realized all the of the coding fixes modders have done on the recent Aliens game, and felt like kind of an asshole. So it is entirely possible that your solution might work.

 

[bananafishtoday]

Ugh...dude, sorry but did you just take programming 101 just a short while ago? You certainly come off that way.

Yeeeeeah that was my first thought too.

OT: When he says the game was not "made" to raise the level cap, he's talking about game balance/design issues, not simple coding problems like using magic numbers all over the place. This was the actual quote:

That?s by design. Some of those things start to become game-breaking. This has actually created a huge problem for us. We designed the skills really well this time, but we did, for better or for worse, make a lot of the decisions with the knowledge that there will be no more skill points available to put into any trees after you reach level 50. We knew the impossible configurations. Some of the design exploits that. Some of the impossible configurations, if they were possible, would break the game. Sometimes very literally. "Oh, that?s gonna blow memory. Your Xbox will crash."

Google tells me the game has a damage cap and tons of % modifiers (I've never played it,) so they might need to switch from long ints to long longs or something if they were to raise the cap. Really what he's prolly saying is, "Omfg leave me alone, it would take way too much time and money to rebalance the game and to refactor the code so it'll still run with the 360's shitty 512mb of RAM."

Edit: That said, these are the guys who made Aliens: Colonial Marines. Maybe the entire Borderlands 2 codebase resides in main and all flow is handled by gotos.

Edit2: Also don't take it the wrong way when we say you're clearly new. It's tough learning, and don't let us discourage you. Keep at it! I've been learning for a few years and still consider myself barely an amateur. Just... realize that there's a lot more to it that you haven't gotten to yet, and it's highly unlikely that you've learned more than them at this point.

 

[yatssdaa]

it's their maths that has been optimised for the max level (whatever it is in Borderlands) not their code.

 

[Elijin]

What? Did you even read the article? They have concerns about balance after level 50.

And the 'The game will break' comments directly referred to the fact that they had discovered that if certain powers were combined due to being able to have more skill points than level 50 allowed, chewed up memory and caused hardware locks. Thats not a math error because they dont know how to add extra levels. Thats them adding extra levels, and the resulting power combinations crippling the game.


Man. Just. Take a step back, stop trying to cash in on Gearbox hate, and use your head.

 

[SSJBlastoise]

What? Did you even read the article? They have concerns about balance after level 50.

And the 'The game will break' comments directly referred to the fact that they had discovered that if certain powers were combined due to being able to have more skill points than level 50 allowed, chewed up memory and caused hardware locks. Thats not a math error because they dont know how to add extra levels. Thats them adding extra levels, and the resulting power combinations crippling the game.


Man. Just. Take a step back, stop trying to cash in on Gearbox hate, and use your head.

Which is still wrong on Gearbox's part because there have been players at level 150 with every skill tree maxed on both consoles and PC for ages so I don't see how it would be a memory issue.

 

[Waaghpowa]

I'm not even that good at coding and I can tell you that it doesn't work like that. It has to do with the math involved with their balancing, not simply a matter of increasing the variable for the level.

To be short, Dopo is totally right. /thread, no need for more posts.

 

[Phlakes]

...Yep, I'm sure that's all there is to it. Good job fixing what a team of professionals overlooked with first year computer science concepts. Problem solved.

Spoiler

Nope.

 

[BreakfastMan]

Google tells me the game has a damage cap and tons of % modifiers (I've never played it,) so they might need to switch from long ints to long longs or something if they were to raise the cap.

The game uses modulo a lot? Well, that would do it. Modulo is actually quite an expensive operation from my experience, especially with big numbers.

OT: What everyone else said. Also, consider particle effects as well. Those things can eat up a ton of memory, and if you get a lot going at once because of all your fancy powers working together... Yeah, I can see how that would be a problem.

 

[bananafishtoday]

Nah, I just meant percent modifiers.

 

[Jennacide]

Not sure if troll.

Seriously, did you just read headlines and not actually read Pitchford's fairly exacting explaination? It's because of two primary issues, balancing, and skill interaction. There is a few skill combos currently impossible that would cause the game to do such absurd calculations as to give your cpu a headache. Letting the level cap go to, say 60, would allow this to happen. They're going to need to refit and rebalance a bunch of skills for the level cap increase, which they did say they would do after the demand from this original statement.

 

[BoredAussieGamer]

God I hope I don't become this arrogant after this (first btw) year of my Computer science major. And as others have stated, it has more to do with balance issues than anything else.

 

[BreakfastMan]

Nah, I just meant percent modifiers.

Well, then... Stop being confusing with your syntax! XD

I tells ya, one of these days programming... Zip! Pow! Straight to da moon!

 

[TheAmazingHobo]

This is the funniest thing I read in month.
So thank you, good Sir.

Also, as someone teaching programming, let me congratulate you on your understanding of the importance of using variables instead of actual numbers in code. It´s utterly irrelevant to the Borderlands-thing, but still something every aspiring programmer has to understand.

 

[Tanakh]

But since Mr. Pitchford claims the game was NOT made to easily raise the level cap it makes me think they just put the number in manually wherever it was needed in an equation which is just stupid.

Ugh...dude, sorry but did you just take programming 101 just a short while ago? You certainly come off that way. I am pretty sure Gearbox doesn't have issues with hardcoding the variables. You should be aware that even if you softcode everything you can STILL hit issues with expandability. In this case it's sheer complexity that hinders the operation - it's their maths that has been optimised for the max level (whatever it is in Borderlands) not their code.

By the way, just as an aside - you can read this article on soft and hardcoding [http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Soft_Coding.aspx].

Here I was going to post but was beaten to it. Pretty sure the issue is not with the level cap but with the whole game design, however beliving a game has been optimized for max level is giving too much cred to devs this days, that or the challenge I want and they challenge the devs intended are just different.