How Can Gearbox be THAT Incompetent When It Comes to Programming?

[EmperorZoltan]

Yea.... the decision to not raise the level cap is not due to lack of programming expertise. It's for game balance and system stability. Here's an extract from the actual interview with the president of gearbox, Randy Pitchford:

INTERVIEWER: there?s all these skill tree combinations that I want to do that I just need a few more skill points to get to.

Pitchford: That?s by design. Some of those things start to become game-breaking. This has actually created a huge problem for us. We designed the skills really well this time, but we did, for better or for worse, make a lot of the decisions with the knowledge that there will be no more skill points available to put into any trees after you reach level 50. We knew the impossible configurations. Some of the design exploits that. Some of the impossible configurations, if they were possible, would break the game. Sometimes very literally. ?Oh, that?s gonna blow memory. Your Xbox will crash.?

---------

So..... look dude, you already have a solid game, can you honestly tell me your personal experience of the product would be improved by the addition of extra arbitrary levels? The games design, combat system, enemies, NOTHING else would change by adding extra ccharacter levels.... all you achieve is forcing the developers to raise the bar that would simply not alter your core experience, whilst simultaneously causing massive issues!

From a design perspective, you have to weight cost benefit. Raising the level cap would possible require redesign of fundemental game elements to avoid breaking the game. For a $9.99 piece of DLC, I wouldn't be cool with that. You don't go back to formula when your product is already out on shelves. You make a new product and implement your new ideas in that.

Gearbox's situation is well presented and completely understandable. Just because borderlands 1 did it doesn't mean 2 has to as well. And I remember getting new levels with the purchase of my Borderlands 1 DLC; it didn't change squat about the core game.

Look at other games that have over time increased their level cap. MMOs are a really good example. WoW increases its level cap by between 5 and 10 levels each time, but nothing has changed with the core gameplay experience; you get new skills and new toys to play with, but it doesn't alter the central experience that is WoW.

To put it another way; no Azaraxzealot, You've already eaten your entire cake. You can't have any more, it will make you sick and it will cost too much.


Full interview at http://venturebeat.com/2013/02/07/borderlands-2-level-cap-increase/#qhfV4OBrZmAQ6kWg.99

 

[Serinanth]

What if leveling past 50 simply did not give you any more skill points? As they said it was a balance issue and having 3 skill trees maxed out would obviously cause balance problems.

So if the trees were not set up to handle more than the allocated skill points then don't add any more?

Increase the myriad other stats as you progress in level and scale the baddies with varying difficulty modifiers. That seems to be how it is set up now but you just don't get a "ding" for a new level you just get more bad ass points to spend. I guess people just want to see that level number go up.

I know Jack and Shit about programming and Jack did my homework for me, but I am sure there is a solution.
Blizzard does it, look at how many skill tree and stat revamps there have been in Wow.

Then again I'm sure Gearbox doesn't have one of these

to fund rewriting the back end of their software.

Edit: Dammit Zoltan, I was workin on that.

 

[Yopaz]

This is what happens when all you read is article headlines. This was never about what was possible or not, they already showed us in the original that they could raise the max level with new dlc, but this time around they used the experience from making both the game and the dlc to make the original max level perfectly balanced to the game.

He was talking about balance when he sad that raising the level cap would break the game. Try reading the article the next time you want to comment on it.

 

[Xaio30]

Then again I'm only a novice programmer and there could be levels of detail I just can't comprehend, however, if there are any other programmers out there, what do you all think?

When Gearbox said that a higher game will "break the game" they meant in the sense that you will become overpowered.
I understand why it might be interpreted as a coding problem.

 

[Vigormortis]

I don't think they eever intended for it to be raised in the first place, thus why no allowances were made for it to be raised.

It's similar to how the Dark Arisen DLC for Dragon's Dogma is being released as a whole new game because they did not put any "hooks" in the default game that would allow for easy additions to be put in.

As I understand it, GB is only raising the level cap (or attempting it) because of extreme pressure from fans.

Except, there's an achievement in the game called "Capped Out?For Now". Achieved when you hit level 50.

So...are they bad at planning and design or are they simply lying to the gamers with the "...for now" bit?


Besides, many of their excuses don't hold up. Especially the "system instability" one.

There've been quite a few people who've already hacked the game so they have all of the available skills for each class. And none of them have had their systems become "overwhelmed" or "crash".

As for the reasoning being "balance issues", I can't accept that either. A few modifications to the stat progression of the players and NPCs, as well as just locking out "over-powered" skill combinations, and they'd be just fine.

Perhaps they're trying to find a way to monetize a level cap increase?

 

[DoPo]

Except, there's an achievement in the game called "Capped Out?For Now". Achieved when you hit level 50.

So...are they bad at planning and design or are they simply lying to the gamers with the "...for now" bit?

I wouldn't call it lying, as they aren't actually promising anything. The whole "...for now" is a common joke anyways. And looking at the other achievements it doesn't seem likely they aren't using it as a joke.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

As stated, it's a balance thing.

Some combos would be insane.

For example:
Imagine if your commando could throw out two shielded turrets with double rocket launchers that shot slag missiles. Having two rocket launcher shield turrets is ALREADY OP.

 

[Altorin]

It's not about the coding, it's about the balance. Allowing the player to go over level 50 would make them completely overpowered. Or if they added in different tougher enemies for level 50+ players it's a lot harder to guess how powerful they would be since it would vary greatly if they had a good character build or not so they would end up with enemies they would be too tough to handle unless you carefully choose you skills.

I haven't played the game myself there was an article on it somewhere.

pretty much this. If you ever played WoW back in the day,, you know how silly unbalanced even a single extra talent point can be. There were bugs that could get a warrior an extra talent point, and when they went MS/DW (Mortal Strike/Death Wish... basically super big attack that reduces healing and temporary berserker rage type buff), they were pretty unstoppable. Blizzard has had to tear the Talent system apart several times because of this sort of balance shift

What if leveling past 50 simply did not give you any more skill points? As they said it was a balance issue and having 3 skill trees maxed out would obviously cause balance problems.

So if the trees were not set up to handle more than the allocated skill points then don't add any more?

Increase the myriad other stats as you progress in level and scale the baddies with varying difficulty modifiers. That seems to be how it is set up now but you just don't get a "ding" for a new level you just get more bad ass points to spend. I guess people just want to see that level number go up.

I know Jack and Shit about programming and Jack did my homework for me, but I am sure there is a solution.
Blizzard does it, look at how many skill tree and stat revamps there have been in Wow.

Then again I'm sure Gearbox doesn't have one of these

to fund rewriting the back end of their software.

Edit: Dammit Zoltan, I was workin on that.

Yeah, this could work, or add Super Talents, which aren't actual skill points, but draw from their own smaller pool for post 50 content.

There certainly are options

 

[Assassin Xaero]

[...]

Coming from a programmer, well, that has nothing to do with that... did you read why it would break the game? Basically the issue is leveling up, giving you skill points, would unbalance it and you could make yourself freakishly overpowered. Then they would have to find a way to balance the overpowered with the ones who aren't overpowered so it isn't too easy for some and too hard for others. It isn't an issue of adding exp.

 

[AT God]

I played as zero so I only have one action skill modifier. It seems they could disable the action skills, make it a pick one situation that locks the other one.

I don't care if it unbalances the game, I play solo so if I don't want to unbalance it I wont abuse it.

Also, on the PC people have already modded the game to make it unbalanced so let them have the increase and they will mod it back for you.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well they really aren't that daft but the claim of balance is just as derp, the game has none to begin with because you will randomly get weapons that can one-shot everything for the next 10 levels, and my assassin can insta melee everything under a super badass since level 20.

Really concerned with balance on that front... basically anything coming out of Gearbox for the time being should be read as "we can't be arsed".

 

[V8 Ninja]

As many people have stated, this is more of a game design/balance issue rather than a programming issue. I also remember Randy Pitchford stating that raising the level cap would make some weapon/player stats go over the RAM/CPU limitations of the console versions of Borderlands 2.

 

[Vigormortis]

I wouldn't call it lying, as they aren't actually promising anything. The whole "...for now" is a common joke anyways. And looking at the other achievements it doesn't seem likely they aren't using it as a joke.

Egh, I don't know. Not sure I can accept that.

If it is just a joke it's one done in very poor taste. Which, given the quality of humor (or lack thereof) in the game, wouldn't surprise me, honestly.

 

[Kal-Adam]

It's not about the coding, it's about the balance. Allowing the player to go over level 50 would make them completely overpowered. Or if they added in different tougher enemies for level 50+ players it's a lot harder to guess how powerful they would be since it would vary greatly if they had a good character build or not so they would end up with enemies they would be too tough to handle unless you carefully choose you skills.

I haven't played the game myself there was an article on it somewhere.

pretty much this. If you ever played WoW back in the day,, you know how silly unbalanced even a single extra talent point can be. There were bugs that could get a warrior an extra talent point, and when they went MS/DW (Mortal Strike/Death Wish... basically super big attack that reduces healing and temporary berserker rage type buff), they were pretty unstoppable. Blizzard has had to tear the Talent system apart several times because of this sort of balance shift

What if leveling past 50 simply did not give you any more skill points? As they said it was a balance issue and having 3 skill trees maxed out would obviously cause balance problems.

So if the trees were not set up to handle more than the allocated skill points then don't add any more?

Increase the myriad other stats as you progress in level and scale the baddies with varying difficulty modifiers. That seems to be how it is set up now but you just don't get a "ding" for a new level you just get more bad ass points to spend. I guess people just want to see that level number go up.

I know Jack and Shit about programming and Jack did my homework for me, but I am sure there is a solution.
Blizzard does it, look at how many skill tree and stat revamps there have been in Wow.

Then again I'm sure Gearbox doesn't have one of these

to fund rewriting the back end of their software.

Edit: Dammit Zoltan, I was workin on that.

Yeah, this could work, or add Super Talents, which aren't actual skill points, but draw from their own smaller pool for post 50 content.

There certainly are options

Or what about a separate fourth skill for each class starting after level fifty. I don't claim to know much about these sort of things, but it seems like Mr. Pitchford hasn't put enough thought in other ways of solving the issue.

 

[Lunar Templar]

um ...

did you miss the article where they said they didn't want to cause of balance issues?

so, it not that they can't they just don't want to cause of the head ache that goes with re-balancing everything for character that would other wise be over powered as fuck

 

[thesilentman]

snip

Yo, game balance called. It's crying and saying "Y U NO CONSIDER ME??!!"

As much as I'd like to say that I agree with you, I can't. Sure, you can increase a level cap, but if you do it wrong, a lot of game weapons will either become useless or overpowered very fast.

 

[Black Reaper]

The whole "it would unbalance the game"thing is bullshit,only 20% of players have reached the max level,that is because True Vault Hunter Mode is where you have to level from 31+,TVHM is a horribly designed new game plus,in a gun dependant game,guns become quickly outclassed,and rare purple items can easily be replaced by trash white items in a few levels,and since Gearbox made rare drops rarer,and expects you to farm horribly designed bosses with less than 5% drop rate for orange(rarest) items,TVHM is often skipped,and even if you complete it,there is nothing else to do,apart from finishing any undone missions,or farming for oranges,which as i already mentioned,have horrible droprates and are dropped by horribly designed bosses

Your level is also lower than the level of your enemies,and i have heard stories of players who,even doing every sidequest were still outleveled by simple mooks,it is also said that it was normal to see 10 oranges in a Borderlands 1 run,and if you find even 1 orange in 2,you are a lucky bastard

Not only that,but almost every enemy in the game can 3-shot you,sometimes literally

And Gearbox thinks that by making you more powerful they would BREAK the game!?