How can some gamers call Japanese Xenophobic for not accepting western gaming?

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Netrigan

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Japan has traditionally been xenophobic. It's extremely hard for a non-Japanese company to succeed in Japan because they support Japanese companies if given a choice. Xbox has a hard time in Japan for this reason.

These days their xenophobia is pretty benign so it's not a huge deal. It's just a cultural hurdle businesses have to deal with.
 

Soviet Steve

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Giest4life said:
Just Cause 2 was a refreshing game which was set in the fictional Far Eastern nation, and it did not involve the white guys coming in to save the people from their vile dictator. I'd love to see other cities as settings of the game, and I think it might even help the games become popular outside the United States as well. The Japanese are no more xenophobic than the French or the Italians or the Spanish or the Americans. The people don't like anything that makes them feel awkward or out of place.
CIA trying to destroy the infrastructure of a third world country, kill the evil dictator because he doesn't listen to America and keep non-Americans from obtaining natural resources - Plus the whole "Good" cast aside from the main character were whites.

Plus while not meaning to cause offensive to Americans or members of the Latino community, I don't view Latin Americans as being any less white than Southern Europeans.

Plus that ending. >_>
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Japanese games are as a whole pretty different to american games and shooters in particular. This is a reflection of what gamers want. Monster Hunter in Japan is as big as Call of Duty in USA...and yes, Monster Hunter is on PSP.


The xbox stuff that sells there is all either entirely anime or one of the few things that sells everywhere like street fighter or resident evil, beyond that it's all portables, Jrpgs and cute anime-like games, stuff that is what is actually liked there and stuff that is NOT liked in the US.


It's not xenophobia, it's fundamentally different tastes in games.
 

Giest4life

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Istvan said:
Giest4life said:
Just Cause 2 was a refreshing game which was set in the fictional Far Eastern nation, and it did not involve the white guys coming in to save the people from their vile dictator. I'd love to see other cities as settings of the game, and I think it might even help the games become popular outside the United States as well. The Japanese are no more xenophobic than the French or the Italians or the Spanish or the Americans. The people don't like anything that makes them feel awkward or out of place.
CIA trying to destroy the infrastructure of a third world country, kill the evil dictator because he doesn't listen to America and keep non-Americans from obtaining natural resources - Plus the whole "Good" cast aside from the main character were whites.

Plus while not meaning to cause offensive to Americans or members of the Latino community, I don't view Latin Americans as being any less white than Southern Europeans.

Plus that ending. >_>
The whole CIA thing did really rub me the wrong way until I saw the irony in the entire thing, which I believe was a conscious choice on behalf of the developers. We are asked to destabilize the country and overthrow a dictator by aiding equally batshit insane factions. Plus, Rico wasn't a naive goody-two-shoes, who was doing it to help the people. He knew exactly why he was there: he was in there as a merc to cause mayhem and chaos.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Mackheath said:
They aren't xenophobic for not accepting Western gaming; they are xenophobic because almost every depiction of Western culture/characters are either stereotypically gung-ho, buffoonish, or obnoxious.
To be fair, their depictions of "characteristically Japanese" folks is usually just as much of a caricature if not more, it's an anime thing.
 

Starke

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JaredXE said:
If they are being called xenophobic due to them not liking Western gaming, then that's simply not true. No, they are xenophobic because they are xenophobic. Not all of them, but most of the over 30 crowd tend to view foreigners with suspicion and will often outright refuse to serve them in businesses or even sit next to them on the train. It's a cultural thing. Yeah it's been over 150 years since their imposed isolation during Tokugawa, but Japan has always been pretty insular, hell they even treat an entire subsection of their population as lesser due to what kind of jobs their ancestors did.

If Japanese gamers don't like western games, that's fine. I know a number of japanese games that suck too.
Very well said.

Soviet Heavy said:
I think that Japanese xenophobia has roots beyond that of games. In many ways, the United States is very similar in that regard.
This is sort of true.

Soviet Heavy said:
Before the 20th Century, both countries were very isolationist and independent. After the British forced commerce with Japan under the threat of violence, they opened their borders, albeit reluctantly. The United States entered World War 1 only after submarines started attacking their convoys which were supplying the European Allies.
I'd have to double check, but, IIRC, the Black Fleet was actually American, not British. The British did kick off the trend however, by forcibly opening China to western trade at rifle point. So, when Japan was forced at gunpoint to end it's isolationism the forces holding the guns were playing a game of follow the leader.

Soviet Heavy said:
Ever wonder why so many anime feature Tokyo? Or why so many American productions feature Los Angeles or New York? These cities are cultural epicenters for their countries, making them logical subjects to discuss in a given context. The same way Tokyo Is the center of the universe [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TokyoIsTheCenterOfTheUniverse], New York is the center of the states. If something big is gonna happen, it will hit the city that everybody in the country knows about.
This is kind of true, kind of not. There is a lot to be said for cultural centers, though, when you look at gaming, Los Angeles, New York, and even Washington DC are sort of in the minority. I think, off hand, in the last year, I've actually played more games set in Detroit than New York, and certainly more than in DC or LA.

Now, the film industry and TV loves setting things in LA, but as tropes will tell you, a big part of that is because they can easily shoot in LA, but it simply isn't as true with gaming. Crysis 2 being set in NYC was specifically a departure from the previous Crytek games which opted for anonymous jungle environments.

One element that does actually discourage this is that if you're going to do a game, you have to create the world you're working in from scratch, if that is a real place people have familiarity with, it's going to be much harder to sell that setting, because you have to mesh it with the expected reality. Crysis 2 does this, and for that matter the GTA games are really good at creating the illusion of specific cities, but it does require much more work from the developer than picking a random fictional martian base and setting your game there.

Soviet Heavy said:
And it isn't like xenophobia is exclusive to the Japanese. From a general perspective, most of the United States appears to hold a neutral to hostile attitude towards foreign countries. (Note General perspective, meaning no specifics). The way that Westerners view Japanese xenophobia isn't much different from how other continents view the United States stance on foreign culture.
It varies, but, something I would like to point out. American xenophobia tends to occur at a personal level. For instance, yes, we have a lot of racists. Though that's not a uniquely American issue. When you look to Europe, France, the UK, and Germany all have major problems with racism as well. Again, it tends to be individuals, or small cadres. However, Japan seems to institutionalize their xenophobia in a way that we really don't see in the States.
 

holy_secret

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I call them Xenophobic because they are. I have a friend there who is half english and half japanese, and he's been treated like an outsider all his life. Fuck, he even said there are pubs and bars where all the mixed people meet.

Seriously. They need bars.
Pisses me off to think of that. He's one of the most awesome people I've ever had the luck to meet and befriend.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Mackheath said:
Dreiko said:
Mackheath said:
They aren't xenophobic for not accepting Western gaming; they are xenophobic because almost every depiction of Western culture/characters are either stereotypically gung-ho, buffoonish, or obnoxious.
To be fair, their depictions of "characteristically Japanese" folks is usually just as much of a caricature if not more, it's an anime thing.
True. I'm probably over-generalising, but I rarely see a blatantly Western character portrayed in a positive light. Though sometimes the over-the-top absurdity is pretty amusing in of itself...
Watch the anime "Gosic", it has a lot of that.
 

Prof. Monkeypox

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The Japanese are rather known for their Xenophobia, so the fact that they refuse to acknowledge Western contributions to gaming could be seen as a symptom of that. Of course, it is interesting that most American productions are so Ameri-centric as to be ludicrous in some intsances, but that's kind of beside the point.

Many Japanese are xenophobic, is that why Western games aren't big there? I dunno. Japanese games are bigger here than American games are there, and you can chock that up to culture clashes, but it doesn't explain why so many Americans love "very Japanese" games.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Prof. Monkeypox said:
The Japanese are rather known for their Xenophobia, so the fact that they refuse to acknowledge Western contributions to gaming could be seen as a symptom of that. Of course, it is interesting that most American productions are so Ameri-centric as to be ludicrous in some intsances, but that's kind of beside the point.

Many Japanese are xenophobic, is that why Western games aren't big there? I dunno. Japanese games are bigger here than American games are there, and you can chock that up to culture clashes, but it doesn't explain why so many Americans love "very Japanese" games.
Americans are a wide variety of people, the ones who tend to like "very Japanese" stuff often don't much like the stuff that actual Japanese folks don't like as well. It's a style, unique, with fans and haters, like most other things. Whether you're Japanese or not, liking Japanese style games is often connected with a bunch of other kind of activities you enjoy and the folks into that generally are not that into the typical "western" style of game.
 

wooty

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Soviet Heavy said:
After the British forced commerce with Japan under the threat of violence, they opened their borders, albeit reluctantly.
Iiiiii would check that statement. It was actually the US under control of Admiral Perry who threatened a naval bombardment of Tokyo bay if they didnt open up.

OT: I still dont think they are Xenophobic, I was only there a few months ago and they all seemed pretty open and friendly, especially at the mention of me being English. Then again, we too in the west have our own gripes about foreigners, let us not forget that the "entire of Eastern Europe is coming to britain and taking our jobs, blah blah blah heil bloody hitler".

As for gaming, we can hardly complain. Most people complain that Japanese games full of mopey "emo" teenagers and scantily clad big titted women. While western games are generally full of overly, macho, fearless, foul mouthed men......often with big tits. Its a culture thing
 

orangeban

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Larva said:
trooper6 said:
Most of those GTA:USA games are made by Rockstar North...in Scotland. Non-US folks making games about the US isn't Xenophobia...or not accepting anything outside their culture...because last time I checked, Scotland was not the US.
If they ain't brown and they speak English they're America-by-proxy.

And we'll bomb anyone who says otherwise.

(We'll forgive them for that whole "metric system" thing, though.)
Well, that's gratitude for the nation that created you, we get the honour of being "by-proxy". And while I'm picking a bone, if you hadn't got all uppity about taxes, then there might not of been a revolt and we'd see more games set in London. So there, I blame it all on the American War for Independence. ([/joke], by the way)
 

Daffy F

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Use_Imagination_here said:
I'm pretty sure most people call them Xenophobic because their xenophobic.

And as almost always when commenting on this site, I'm speaking from experience so shut up.
Wow. You just made yourself sound like an asshole with no point to make. Congrats. (Also wrong "they're".)
 

Prof. Monkeypox

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Dreiko said:
Prof. Monkeypox said:
The Japanese are rather known for their Xenophobia, so the fact that they refuse to acknowledge Western contributions to gaming could be seen as a symptom of that. Of course, it is interesting that most American productions are so Ameri-centric as to be ludicrous in some intsances, but that's kind of beside the point.

Many Japanese are xenophobic, is that why Western games aren't big there? I dunno. Japanese games are bigger here than American games are there, and you can chock that up to culture clashes, but it doesn't explain why so many Americans love "very Japanese" games.
Americans are a wide variety of people, the ones who tend to like "very Japanese" stuff often don't much like the stuff that actual Japanese folks don't like as well. It's a style, unique, with fans and haters, like most other things. Whether you're Japanese or not, liking Japanese style games is often connected with a bunch of other kind of activities you enjoy and the folks into that generally are not that into the typical "western" style of game.
Yes, and Japan is not a very diverse group, which is probably how the xenophobia maintains to this day. Besides, how does Japan not have a market force of Western loving gamers to match America's love of Japanese games if it's just a matter of taste? There is one, certainly, but it's not nearly as great as the Japan-loving market force in America. Probably this lack of taste for Western sensibilities comes from a lack of exposure to them. I think the idea that Japanese xenophobia might be to blame for lack of acceptance of Western games is not to be dismissed out of hand, as it could be the result of various greater social issues and histories.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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Zachary Amaranth said:
pulse2 said:
I was involved in a little conversation a while back regarding the Japanese not having an interest in the Xbox, and much of the discussion was made up of rather angry rants targeted at the Japanese and how they were xenophobic, backwards and unwilling to change or accept anything outside their culture.
You got that backwards. The lack of interest in Western gaming is due to xenophobia, not vice versa.

In short, this didn't come out of a vacuum.

What do you think? Would you like to see more gaming in other countries with other countries as the heroes for once, or do you disagree?
Variety is nice, but as long as the games are good, they can all be set in Elbonia for all I care.
yeah this, on both parts, the xenophobia as a culture is what causes them to defer from games in the west.

and also, same here, i couldn't give two fucks about where the fuck the game takes place, if its fun, and gets me into it, where it is makes ZERO DIFFERENCE.

hell most locations in the united states that games are supposedly "set in", i have never been to in my entire life, and most of the time i've maybe seen a postcard with a picture of the city, and that's it. so i don't have any prior attachment to them either.
 

pulse2

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Ghengis John said:
When you get reports of japanese gamers considering an Xbox then painfully shaking their heads no and going "foreign... foreign." from unapologetic japanofiles it's not a difficult conclusion to draw. While it's fair to say that it might simply be a matter of taste there is clearly also a factor of stigma surrounding the adoption of western gaming.
But that would be to say that they adopt nothing from the west, which isn't true, if anything, quite a lot of the youth of Japan are INFLUENCED by the west, even to the point where Anime characters and Japanese game characters look more American than Japanese in most cases. They eat American foods at restaurant chains that have spread there, they adopt American devices such as Apple products, and of course they support their own which I would tell any country to do anyway, that's patriotism. So their perspective on Xbox could be a multitude of different factors, but I still think its mostly down to the fact that Xbox doesn't have the sort of games they enjoy in ABUNDANCE as it does western games. This is a different story to say PS3 and Wii. Saying that, we over here in the EU play both Japanese games and American orientated games and have never really complained, but at the same time, you'll find more developers, American or not in the western side of the world depicting the US in their games, which is cool, but I'd like for example more patriotism from our home grown developers because I can't remember the last game I played with the English flag in the background, that's just one thing though, beyond that, I'd like to simply play more games that don't always have to include someone from America or IN America, not because I'm fed up of it, but just because I'd like some diversity.

Well to be perfectly fair we do go to japan a lot in games, even American made games and likewise see a lot of Japanese protagonists. I think the question you're really asking is "why can't we go to Europe more?"
Well we go to Japan because Japanese focus heavily on their own culture and tend to disregard other cultures, but if you never played a Japanese game, the alternative is usually America and rarely anything in between, which is why games like Far Cry 2 and Resistance (before it went to America) (yeah, I'm specifically looking at FPS titles in this example) stood out a little. Saying that, I wasn't any more in love with Resistance then any other shooter just because it took place in the UK, but it was nice to see some of the places I know for a change and areas I've visited often destroyed. I think I could finally relate to that a little more then I usually do with FPS titles, so it was a little saddening to see Resistance 2 and 3 follow in the path of most other shooters when they started off in Europe.

Luckily that's not the case. We aren't exactly shaking our heads at games like katamari damacy or leaving playstations on store shelves simply for coming from beyond our shores. I won't say that xenophobia does not exist, but it's probably greatly reduced among western gamers who grew up on japanese products. For that matter I have never argued that market share is why we can't put fallout in another country. A far more sensible perspective is that writers should stick to what they know. If an american game developer tried to set a game in europe and what's more tried to satirize or lampoon the culture of any particular country there what are the odds that that attempt would come off as poorly executed and inflammatory? If you're going to set a game in a country it would be wisest to have it made by denizens of that country. This is why 4A's Metro 2033 and Lionhead's Fable both "work" respectively. They are genuine voices and not the unfamiliar, vaguely racist overtones of someone trying their best to ape a culture.

I want you to think about how many well intentioned western made games have had say, a china level and how many unintentionally funny youtube clips have come out of that. Cross reference that with cries of racism levied at the Japanese developed resident evil games and I hope you start to get the picture. It's hard for a foreign developer to depict another culture and not draw some criticism.
That's fair, I wasn't pointing out the fact that American developers in particular had to do it, but many of these same developers have European branches, Crytek for example, a German developer, why couldn't Crysis 2 have taken place in Germany rather than the overly used New York, usually when games ever took place in Germany, it was killing EVIL GERMANS in world war 1 & 2 games, which doesn't really bring the nature of the country into perspective, certainly not in a positive light anyway, there's a difference between a city being wrecked and trying to defend it from evil attackers making the city more interesting because it's what you are defending, than ATTACKING evil doers in a city, to which you'll spend more time killing than caring about the landscape. There are more than enough UK developers, but yet they feel they NEED to make a game based in the US to appeal to a wider demographic, which shouldn't always have to be the case. Which is why Rockstar never returned to London with the GTA franchise.

I don't think we'd learn too much about Indonesia's culture stealing cars or blowing up mutants. If anything I think the games you've listed really depict America in a negative light, GTA especially and you should probably be happier games like it are not set elsewhere. If you want games, good games, to be set anywhere else in the world then it would probably be best for developers from those countries to step up and handle the task themselves.
Its not so much the game at hand than the pulling power of attraction the game has, GTA4 does this exceptionally well, between blowing up cars and causing chaos, you can't help but admire the landscape, especially the first time you play it, and the pulling power it has MAKES you want to visit that place, many a reviewer and gamer has stated this, GTA4 makes you WANT to visit New York because it looks so grand. Games are supposed to be fun, so negative or positive, it shouldn't stop people from enjoying where it takes place and if games can be a stepping stool towards making people keen to travel just to see the game's landscape they played for real, then why not spread out more? Why not depict other spectacular and beautiful cities if you can and if you can avoid issues of controversy? That's the whole point of having multinational branches and this is exactly where Microsoft failed in Japan, they expected to appeal to Japanese with Western games predominantly, without having a branch there, how can they understand and relate to that culture in a way that is more effective then the methods they are trying if they didn't attempt?

My point is that games should be a platform of learning as well as fun, and I don't mean the boring reading sort of learning, I mean providing the ability to take up a keen interest in other places. If games can attract us to parts of America that we played in the games, why can't it be done for other places?

Heck, Just Cause 2 could have taken place on all the Caribbean Islands, it certainly wouldn't have been offensive to me in its form now and my family are all from the islands, if anything, had I not been to the islands, after playing that game and enjoying it as much as I did, I'd be pretty keen to visit.
 

honestdiscussioner

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I see by your badges you didn't really watch Extra Creditz. Here I think their take on it is far too complex to summarize, but if you want a good explanation as to why FPS is big in the US and not in Japan, watch [a href="http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-myth-of-the-gun"]this[/a] for a very detailed analysis on it.

I don't think the designers specifically target the US. I think that writers and developers go with what they know, and they know the US better since most of them live there. I don't think a whole lot of the Japanese developers do a lot of stuff set in the US.