How continues ruined the western arcade.

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NeutralDrow

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Halo Fanboy said:
Japan luckily never succumbed to this disgraceful trend.
If I'm reading you right, you're saying that Japan got rid of games that let you put more coins in to keep playing from where you died?

...

I'm sorry, but as someone who's played in those arcades, I can confidently say that's utterly ridiculous. And while the guy who wrote the article that inspired you talks like a pretentious asshat, I hope you read the thing again and understand his actual point. He was pointing out that this 1CC philosophy was a cultural thing, and an aspect of the gamers themselves, not the games they were playing.

Then again, maybe his point shouldn't be gotten. It was certainly difficult tunneling through the self-patting wank in the article like
Arcades survived in Japan because far more players there came to understand the essence of arcade gaming, while realizing that those newfangled full-motion-video wankfests that started appearing during the 32-bit era could never provide them with the rush that only an unforgiving arcade game can. So even though many were seduced by the cheaper, easier, better-looking console games, many others were not, and they are the ones we have to thank for the survival of the arcade form.
Frankly, though, he has his head up his ass by assuming that "challenge" is the key to arcade longevity in Japan, as opposed to, I dunno...being simple hangout spots, boasting an insane variety of not just games but types of games, having mass appeal even to those who would otherwise consider video games childish, being easier to access on a normal commute, and being in the same goddamn country where they're made.

So not only are you actually wrong about "Japanese gamers can beat westerners in any of these" (if I'm reading a previous post aright), but frankly, people who reach that level of skill in Japan are also obsessives after a fashion. The whole thing is a cart-before-the-horse argument.

Besides...

(and yes, this includes DMC 3 and the 3D Ninja Gaiden and anything else you'd care to mention).
Hehehe...<url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_DWmuXQ7Qk>bullshit. It's the same application either way, it just doesn't cost a buck with each death.
 

Something Amyss

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Man, I tried to take it seriously, but when the first post mentioned the concept that arcades used to reward good games and punish others, I stopped caring. I know that the "everything back in the day was awesome and everything now sucks" idea, but the arcade hasn't changed in that aspect. It's as "true" now as it once was. A lot of things have changed, but that's not one of them.
 

Halo Fanboy

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This thread was bumped without my knowledge a while back and contains a few post I would like to respond to. So I am bumping it again. If a mod has a problem with this they can lock the topic.
Iron Mal said:
I find your Difficulty = Challange = Quality arguement a little hard to justify personally.

The problems with arcades and the challange contained therein were many in number but the following two stick out most to me.

1- More difficulty = more deaths which means more money for the booth. Continues weren't meant to make the game easier, they're meant to keep the game fun and playable (for people besides obsessives who learn the ins and outs of every last pixel). If you had to start the game again from the beginning every time you died then I think you'd find that most people would just get pissed off with the games and tell the arcade owners to go fuck themselves.
I strongly disagree. The no continuing is the absolute funnest way to play. Once you continue the fun is over. You ruin the challenge by erasing your own death with no in-game consequence. You can appreciate the later stages more if you fought to get there by conquering the first stages.

Iron Mal said:
2- Challange does not equal fun. Sometimes a great challange or tense situation can be extremely satisfying and great fun, sometimes having a crushing level of difficulty can just suck all the fun out of what would have otherwise been a great game.

A game's quality and fun is completely independant of it's difficulty and challange.

There are many games out there which barely even have any 'challange' to them but they can still be extremely fun for some people (for example, my girlfriend loves the Sims but I doubt that her enjoyment of the game would be increased by making it demand that she perfectly times her clicks and button presses).
I'm sure that a person who was a dedicated player of managment sim games would eventually want to graduate to games where you have to fill requirements imposed by the game instead of messing around on your own imperitave. It really is just a matter of how dedicated that person is to their hobby. I imagine someone who relishes writing will eventually write books and a person who lives for model plane building will eventually want to build a real plane. The dedicated arcade gamer wants to eventually play the ultimate, evolved and challenging arcade game, it is the natural progression of being dedicated.

As for you difficulty does not effect quality thing. I can't see the quality in a puzzle that isn't puzzling or a strategy game without strategy or an action game without consequences for your actions.

Monshroud said:
I have to say I disagree with you completely... For starters, after taking a quick tour of Twin Galaxies web site, virtually all top 5 scores of the "classic" arcade games are held by people with very western names. I do not see the Eastern domination that you speak of. Maybe that is based on newer titles that are Eastern only, but as most hardcore gamers know there are plenty of games released in the East that are never released to the West because the East thinks we are lazy and stupid.
Yeah it's the newer games after the onset of the continue feature that the Japanese excell at. This is the result of the western arcade culture not being nourished.

Monshroud said:
I also don't think it is as simple as you are laying out here. The fact is gaming has evolved quite a bit, and the amount of time people have to spend on mastering a single game is quite limited. If we were still in the arcade culture you seem so fond of, we wouldn't have the 8 - 100 hour games we have now. No Fallout 3, no God of War, no Final Fantasy, no Halo, no Symphony of the Night, no StarCraft... That list could go on for a while, I think you get my point though. Now not all games need a big story line to be good. You don't really need a big back story to play Donkey Kong. That being said, making a game technically challenging doesn't make it a better game, it just makes it technically challenging. Obviously though, large story lines and immersion are appealing to a wide audience otherwise they wouldn't be selling.
I never said that arcades are the only format of play that belongs in gaming. But besides those game you mentioned have huge glaring flaws, additions of grinding, non-interactive scenes, quick timer events, reduced difficulty. Some of this is made up for is by the increased complexity and online multiplayer but they could still certainly learn a thing or two from arcades. What sells well doesn't really interest me.

Monshroud said:
Beyond that challenge doesn't equal fun. You remember fun right? The thing you left out of your article. How people derive enjoyment from a task they are doing? Culture plays a huge part in this. Maybe eastern gamers find joy in seeing how far they can get on 1 coin. Maybe Westerners don't. Does that make them lazy and dumb and unable to complete the challenges that Eastern gamers do. The answer is no, they just don't find the enjoyment in it. I am not saying this applies to everyone, I am just making a overall statement. In India one of the biggest sports is Cricket. In Canada, curling and hockey are really big, polo is big in other countries, not to mention Football (what Americans call Soccer). There are cultural differences that make various things enjoyable. I think you completely missed this in your article and really wish you would revisit this aspect.
I certainly have boatloads of fun playing arcade games. And I think anyone with an open mind and a tolerance for difficulty would also find this fun. Part of this essay is to open up people to the idea of playing games that aren't 100 hour long JRPGs. I seriously hope you try it some day. It is one of the most satisfying things I ever do.

Monshroud said:
Continues didn't ruin the western arcade. Consoles and Developers did. The convience of being able to play a game at home rather than going to an arcade. Corporate green ruined the western arcade. Developers releasing games that were more focused on making money than challenging the players to strive harder ruined the western arcade.
Corporate greed is what birth the continues systems so these things are certainly related. And I'm well aware that consoles reduced the popularity of arcades, however if those were the only reason then the scene in both Japan and the west would be equal and they are certainly not.

Monshroud said:
This whole idea that you should be able to do it on 1 coin is quite the elitist point of view. In the end it means nothing though. Wow, you can get to the Kill Screen in Pac-Man, good for you, while you were spending months mastering that I played through 6 other games and had some amazing experiences. Does that make you better than me, or me better than you. No it doesn't. We just have different ideas of what is fun.

In the end, it is all about fun.
In the end playing with 1 credit is the best way to have fun in an arcade game.

(EDIT) Fixed a couple of typo's[/quote]
 

Halo Fanboy

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NeutralDrow said:
Halo Fanboy said:
Japan luckily never succumbed to this disgraceful trend.
If I'm reading you right, you're saying that Japan got rid of games that let you put more coins in to keep playing from where you died?

...

I'm sorry, but as someone who's played in those arcades, I can confidently say that's utterly ridiculous.
The "trend" I'm talking about is making games designed for continues. Sorry about the misunderstanding. I'll edit it.

NeutralDrow said:
Frankly, though, he has his head up his ass by assuming that "challenge" is the key to arcade longevity in Japan, as opposed to, I dunno...being simple hangout spots, boasting an insane variety of not just games but types of games, having mass appeal even to those who would otherwise consider video games childish, being easier to access on a normal commute, and being in the same goddamn country where they're made.
Have you been to places like Hey! and other arcades which cater to the audience that participates in the locetest for Cave and Aksys games? Its a serious question because I honestly haven't. It sounds like the scenes you and him are talking about are totally different. Regardless, the fact that the few games I manage to get from Japan have convinced me that they are light years ahead of us.

NeutralDrow said:
So not only are you actually wrong about "Japanese gamers can beat westerners in any of these" (if I'm reading a previous post aright), but frankly, people who reach that level of skill in Japan are also obsessives after a fashion. The whole thing is a cart-before-the-horse argument.
The Japanese get better because they have better competition and have been playing for longer, I'm not trying to suggest any other reason. And seen the American leaderboard for Deathsmiles, It's a joke. I got top 50 in the country on my first 1cc. I hardly even have to try.

NeutralDrow said:
Hehehe...<url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_DWmuXQ7Qk>bullshit. It's the same application either way, it just doesn't cost a buck with each death.
Non-efficient play from a barely above average player on the second easiest level of the game hardly disproves his point. Honestly, I have recording better demos than that in this game. I love the DMC series as 3D action games but honestly,the only way the any games besides the first one are playable is on the hardest difficulty going for S ranks with no damage, item ect. So many elements of the games are completely unacceptable, items, the health bar, grinding, continues and if the game was like an arcade game it would be vastly superior to what it is now. As it stands even the best modern games like Bayonetta, Vanquish and Donkey Kong have too much padding, limited interactivity sequences and poor pacing when compared to arcade games.
 

NeutralDrow

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Halo Fanboy said:
NeutralDrow said:
Halo Fanboy said:
Japan luckily never succumbed to this disgraceful trend.
If I'm reading you right, you're saying that Japan got rid of games that let you put more coins in to keep playing from where you died?

...

I'm sorry, but as someone who's played in those arcades, I can confidently say that's utterly ridiculous.
The "trend" I'm talking about is making games designed for continues. Sorry about the misunderstanding. I'll edit it.
That still doesn't make any more sense, unless you don't consider fighting games, puzzle games, shooters (first-person, side-scrolling, etc.), etc. to be "games designed for continues."

If they weren't, one would imagine they wouldn't bother with that "Continue?" countdown with each one.

NeutralDrow said:
Frankly, though, he has his head up his ass by assuming that "challenge" is the key to arcade longevity in Japan, as opposed to, I dunno...being simple hangout spots, boasting an insane variety of not just games but types of games, having mass appeal even to those who would otherwise consider video games childish, being easier to access on a normal commute, and being in the same goddamn country where they're made.
Have you been to places like Hey! and other arcades which cater to the audience that participates in the locetest for Cave and Aksys games? Its a serious question because I honestly haven't. It sounds like the scenes you and him are talking about are totally different. Regardless, the fact that the few games I manage to get from Japan have convinced me that they are light years ahead of us.
That I'm aware of, no. I was certainly jealous of such places, because they were playing Melty Blood: Actress Again before it got widespread distribution...at which point, I'd already come back to the US (I was also apparently a week too late to play as Luvia in Fate/Unlimited Codes; I left before she was time-unlocked).

No, the places I went to, off the top of my head, are a few places in Yokohama, at least two in Tokyo (one fairly upscale place in Ueno, one hole-in-the-wall in Shinjuku), one each in Shimonoseki and Fukuoka, and Sega Tower in Kyoto.

NeutralDrow said:
So not only are you actually wrong about "Japanese gamers can beat westerners in any of these" (if I'm reading a previous post aright), but frankly, people who reach that level of skill in Japan are also obsessives after a fashion. The whole thing is a cart-before-the-horse argument.
The Japanese get better because they have better competition and have been playing for longer, I'm not trying to suggest any other reason. And seen the American leaderboard for Deathsmiles, It's a joke. I got top 50 in the country on my first 1cc. I hardly even have to try.
Only played it twice, myself...and that was in the arcades. Frankly, I'm still astonished that it got localized. Didn't think there was much of a market for loli-design side-scrolling shooters on the 360.

NeutralDrow said:
Hehehe...<url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_DWmuXQ7Qk>bullshit. It's the same application either way, it just doesn't cost a buck with each death.
Non-efficient play from a barely above average player on the second easiest level of the game hardly disproves his point.
Um...dude? That's an incredibly good player, and he's playing on Dante Must Die. You didn't notice all those Prides devil trigger?

So yes, it rather is evidence against his point. There is no effective difference between getting good at a game through repetition in the arcade and on a console...one is just more piecemeal and costs money with each application.

Honestly, I have recording better demos than that in this game.
Unless you're secretly <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeA7wWSLlVw>Brea or <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvfbT36ao5E&feature=related>Xarugas in disguise, I'm gonna call bullshit.

And frankly...

So many elements of the games are completely unacceptable, items, the health bar, grinding, continues and if the game was like an arcade game it would be vastly superior to what it is now.
If you call items, story, and upgrades to be "unacceptable," Devil May Cry would have to be boring as shit to be acceptable.

You know, aside from the fact that it would be completely impossible as an arcade game.
 

buddycat

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I'm not sure your age, so I can only reply broadly, but it seems to me you've missed a few points about early arcade games. I started playing in the late '70s, and didn't care about a game having an "ending" until I played Adventure on my Atari 2600, and if anything that seemed defeatist because the game was over, so what then? Today, the console system of gaming makes games all about "winning" or make it to the end. Whether you had a "perfect" game mattered very little to most players. My friends and I used to play Space Invaders at the roller rink and brag about high scores and levels as a means of defining skill; but with certain games, such as Pac Man or Galaga, you had reason to continue?to get to the pretzel level, or to get the different Galaga badges. But be assured that continuing at a higher level never made the game any less difficult; if you died at level 49 on Galaga, chances were you'd die again, and again, and again...but eventually you might get to level 50. Let me put it this way: If I'm at the gym, and I have trouble benching 200 lbs, I don't go back to just lifting the bar (50 lbs) the next time I'm there. I continue at 200 lbs until I can lift it. That's how you get better, by confronting a challenge, not from backing off of it.

Furthermore, games didn't get easier because you put a new quarter in, and so continuing at a higher level was a viable way to test your skill without wasting money?keep in mind that, back then, at a quarter per game, you had to be economical about your gameplay, especially if you were a teen without a job and not much of an allowance. If players had to start from the beginning, they would have gotten frustrated and moved on. The coin-op arcades were, first and foremost, about making money, and weren't designed to test out console games (which were the real culprit in killing off arcades); consoles then couldn't handle arcade quality graphics anyway. So, the arcades had to give players a reason to keep playing, and continues were a way to do that, and probably buoyed the industry for a lot longer than it would have otherwise, both in terms of finances and player interest.
 

Monshroud

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Ok Ok, you were kind enough to PM me asking to jump back into this conversation, so I will.

Halo Fanboy said:
I strongly disagree. The no continuing is the absolute funnest way to play. Once you continue the fun is over. You ruin the challenge by erasing your own death with no in-game consequence. You can appreciate the later stages more if you fought to get there by conquering the first stages.
Halo Fanboy said:
What sells well doesn't really interest me.
Halo Fanboy said:
In the end playing with 1 credit is the best way to have fun in an arcade game.
Here's the thing I am noticing. You keep going back to the idea that your way is the right way. That completing a game one 1 Coin is the best way. You need to ammend this a bit and add the words "for me." You need to do this because you are stating an opinion and not a fact. Just because you enjoy the challenge of completing a game on 1 Coin doesn't mean that other people do. There are people out there who will never complete Contra without cheating. Maybe you can do it all on 1 life. That doesn't mean that the people who used the Konami code didn't enjoy the game or that they did it improperly. You seem to ignore the idea that people dervive enjoyment in a different fashion then yourself, and you continually are using statements that basically state "If you're not doing it MY WAY then you are doing it WRONG, and you can't possibly be having as much fun as me!"

You seem to think that the way you get the most out of a game is the way everyone else should do it. That just isn't the way things are. As I stated in my original post

Monshroud said:
Beyond that challenge doesn't equal fun. You remember fun right? The thing you left out of your article. How people derive enjoyment from a task they are doing? Culture plays a huge part in this. Maybe eastern gamers find joy in seeing how far they can get on 1 coin. Maybe Westerners don't. Does that make them lazy and dumb and unable to complete the challenges that Eastern gamers do. The answer is no, they just don't find the enjoyment in it. I am not saying this applies to everyone, I am just making a overall statement. In India one of the biggest sports is Cricket. In Canada, curling and hockey are really big, polo is big in other countries, not to mention Football (what Americans call Soccer). There are cultural differences that make various things enjoyable. I think you completely missed this in your article and really wish you would revisit this aspect.
Halo Fanboy said:
I certainly have boatloads of fun playing arcade games. And I think anyone with an open mind and a tolerance for difficulty would also find this fun. Part of this essay is to open up people to the idea of playing games that aren't 100 hour long JRPGs. I seriously hope you try it some day. It is one of the most satisfying things I ever do.
Do you see what you just did here. You ignored what I asked of you. I asked you to explore the idea that other people enjoy games in various ways, and different types of games to boot. You took that opportunity to instead harp on about how if people just did it your way that they would somehow have an amazing experience.

You don't know anything about me. Let's just say I would be willing to wager I am quite a bit older than you, and I have been in the Arcade scene for quite a long time. Beyond that I actually own Arcade games that I keep in my home. Currently I own 4 of them. I guess what I am trying to do here is make you understand that I really do know what I am talking about here.

For instance, I own the original Star Wars upright arcade game. Play the game long enough and it basically becomes a "Wash, Rinse and Repeat" to complete the waves. When I first got it, I worked hard and got myself to Wave 32 or 33 if memory serves. To be honest at first I loved the idea of the challenge. Then I got to the point where I wasn't enjoying myself. I was getting a higher score, but that was it, I wasn't seeing anything new, I just had to keep following the same pattern over and over and not screw up. I don't find much fun in being perfect when playing for fun.

Your above statement is similar to the people who tell me if I would just watch "Dumb & Dumber" and "Napoleon Dynamite" again I will find it funny. Guess what, it just isn't my brand of humor. Same goes for games, I don't find the fun in seeing how far I can get on 1 coin. Sometimes I like to at least get in the Top 10 scoreboard. If the game is completable, I like to complete it, but I have never thought it to be more enjoyable because I did it on 1 coin. I just find it to be showboating...

If you find that the 1CC is enjoyable then that's fine, and you should continue to strive to reach the level of perfection that you want to attain. You shouldn't be telling people that because they enjoy a different type of game, or playing a game a different way they are somehow cheapening the experience.

There are a lot of different companies out there that make games that cater to a lot of different people. Buy from the ones that give you what you are looking for and I hope you have fun doing it!
 

Chibz

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Halo Fanboy said:
I have to say, my good sir, that you're wasting your breath. Most people who play games anymore aren't really gamers. They wouldn't know challenge if you smashed them over the head with it.

MSW said:
What started the death of arcades isn't so much the existence of continues, rather it was the birth of this notion games can and should be beaten. Once that mindset was established arcades were soon full of players whom would accept cheap deaths as long as they could credit feed to victory, just to add another notch on thier games beaten belt. This isn't hardcore gaming, its rampant consumerism.
And this. So very much this.
 

The Hidden Stump

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One topic that I don't believe been mentioned in this thread yet is the conversion of new arcade gamers. As has been mentioned several times, there is a limited amount of space within an arcade and as a generation gains skill playing games of their desired genre, they demand more and more difficult games. Although such games do indeed satisfy the current fanbase (assuming that difficulty=satisfaction=fun for all true fans), it creates a problem when new fans are needed for the arcade to replenish its customers.

Think for a moment about what you've been saying up until this point. AFTER mastering easier games within a genre, true fans have demanded more difficult games to keep themselves mentally stimulated and challenged (and entertained, of course). After having the difficulty of a game elevated for the umpteenth time, however, it seems simply insane to assume that someone without prior training on the easier games (which would have been rotated out of the arcade to make room for the new ones) would find much of a reason to stay with the game after the first couple of deaths. No matter how much you desire more difficult games and how much fun you derive from them, I somehow doubt that you possess any hard evidence (such as statistics, not personal anecdotes) suggesting that new players (to reiterate, new players, not young players) are equally comfortable playing games of every which difficulty. As such, within each given genre, I?d expect there to be something of a requirement to have games of all difficulties. When this comes together with the limited space of an arcade, something of a problem emerges.

Also, your view that the difficulty of games must continue moving forwards relies on the biggest contributors to arcades being that group of ?true fans? that keeps pressing forward. If, for whatever reason, some of these people stop gaming or if the new generation creates a large demand for easier games to get it started, even Eastern arcades would be forced to use some of their finite space not to hold superior difficult games but rather to hold inferior easy games. In this way, the nature of gaming would remain forever cyclical,
perhaps rising a little bit higher whenever the next generation of true fans comes about.

What I?d propose to be the optimal system for arcade gaming wouldn?t be the complete dismissal of continues but rather any from a large number of compromises:

1. Penalize Continues: If you?re chief complaint is that continues allow players with no skill to erase their loss scot free, don?t let them get away scot free. If they continue, they can?t access a bonus level (with a better weapon), certain power ups won?t appear later in the game, the last level is gone, and you can no longer get the perfect ending to the game. Did somebody just continue three times? I guess another level and bonus level are gone, you only get the meh ending, and your score can?t be listed as a high score. In fact, let?s have a person?s score reset to 0 with each continue. In this way, a new player can play through and even beat a game but a skilled player who can do it with 1cc gets more satisfaction and depth from doing so.

2. Multiple Levels of Difficulty: While certain arcade games (like DDR) are known for this, many of them only have a single, default level of difficulty. Why not remake them so that they can be played on multiple levels of difficulty with lower difficulties being watered down and shorter and higher difficulties possessing more levels, story (in-so-far as arcade games can have story), enemies, bonuses, powers, cars, fighters, robots, weapons, costumes (preferably packaged with powers in a Mario-esque design), bosses, and even buttons (along with the mechanics they control) being unlocked but limiting and even banning continues as you get to higher difficulties. Alternately, you can have games simply cut off after a certain levels at certain difficulties and inform the player that the next level can only be reached in harder difficulties and offer to let the player immediately switch to a harder difficulty and start from the beginning free of charge.
This is personally my favorite option as it gives more satisfaction to more skilled gamers while training newcomers to join their ranks at the same time. Also, giving games multiple levels of difficulties would help arcades consolidate a bit and thus accommodate all levels of play for all genres that they decide to hold (even a 6-game movie theatre "arcade", for example, might be able to hold fighting, racing, and shooting game each ranging from simple to insane levels of difficulty).

3. The Curveball: This is probably the hardest solution to picture but try to stick with me here. Traditionally, an arcade game relies upon you using accuracy, timing, reflexes, and (occasionally) strategy to avoid dying. Why not have games focus on utilizing these attributes to build a high score rather than rely on them to simply keep playing? While you have made it clear that your expectations are that better player = more play time, having better player = better score makes an equal amount of sense and wouldn?t punish newer gamers. I?m not suggesting that no skill be needed for the game whatsoever, mind you, but that the minimum skill for games be lowered and that more precise targeting controls, combo creators, and so forth allow the good players to use more and more of their skill as new games come out. This is already in some games and doesn?t belong everywhere but I can still picture it working in a few more places.
 

Halo Fanboy

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NeutralDrow said:
That still doesn't make any more sense, unless you don't consider fighting games, puzzle games, shooters (first-person, side-scrolling, etc.), etc. to be "games designed for continues."

If they weren't, one would imagine they wouldn't bother with that "Continue?" countdown with each one.
No they are not designed for continues, they merely have them. If they were designed for continues they would play like Narc, Total Carnage ect. Like how Doom isn't designed for God mode.

I would be very suprised if any respectable developer tested the balance, difficulty, extends and score systems on some guy credit feeding the game. That just doesn't happen because that's not how these people play the game.

NeutralDrow said:
Um...dude? That's an incredibly good player, and he's playing on Dante Must Die. You didn't notice all those Prides devil trigger?
I meant the second easiest mission. Mission 1 is the easiest, mission 2 is second easiest. And Kail is a good player but what you posted is far from an impressive accomplishment. Mission 2 is just way too easy.

NeutralDrow said:
So yes, it rather is evidence against his point. There is no effective difference between getting good at a game through repetition in the arcade and on a console...one is just more piecemeal and costs money with each application.
His point was that the non-arcade games were all too easy not that it is impossible to get good at them.

NeutralDrow said:
Honestly, I have recording better demos than that in this game.
Unless you're secretly <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeA7wWSLlVw>Brea or <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvfbT36ao5E&feature=related>Xarugas in disguise, I'm gonna call bullshit.
I'm an average player but I have managed to SS every level on DMD. I have demos recorded for most mission, all of which are much more challenging then mission 2. Even my mission 2 vid is a bit more aesthetically interesting the Kail's. Kail spent most of the time using Jam session and reverb shocks with time lag. Personally I think my vid shows more agression and interesting combos like the Drive > Reverse Million Stab thing.
I'm sending you a link. Keep it in your yourself though, cause I don't really feel like going public with this stuff until I ever decide to complete the whole thing. The description will contain a secret code that only you can recognize.

NeutralDrow said:
If you call items, story, and upgrades to be "unacceptable," Devil May Cry would have to be boring as shit to be acceptable.

You know, aside from the fact that it would be completely impossible as an arcade game.
Yeah, items and upgrades lead to grinding and grinding basically destroys the difficulty curve of a game. The only reason for upgrades to be unlockable is for people who want to have the extra challenge of not using them. The cutscenes are just a bunch fun/cool action scenes they could save for advertising or something.

And DMC3 on normal is far from impossible to beat all in one try. In fact it would be easier then beating bloody palace mode. If it were an arcade game then it would only have DMD difficulty (the only good mode) it would have less padding, useless parts, inane puzzles and mindlessly easy bosses like Cerberus, Nevan, Geryon, Lady and Doppleganger. It wouldn't have the ridiculously easy areas for you milk stylish points and orbs in missions 15 and 16. The arcade gamers who play for optimization would not allow any broken high level strats.

You can see me abusing all the stupid broken aspects of the game if you care to watch my videos. Playing these games is so different from playing a cave shootemup. in Cave games milking requires that you be one of the best players in the world and no bosses are trivialized in braindead loops.

The Devil May Cry series have several of the most ingenious combat systems I've ever seen it's a shame that the console sensabilities have crippled it.
 

Halo Fanboy

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Monshroud said:
I don't think there is anyone here that considers credit feeding fun though. Most people feel ripped off by getting 30 secomds of game time per credit. The continue feature was just a cheap way of trying to attract a new audience to arcades and ended up hurting everyone. Particularly because it lead to bad game designs that came to define arcade games in the west for quite a while.

Theres no reason to take challenge out of an arcade game when it's there defining point and what the community that plays them has built themselves around. It reduces arcades to mere novelties and now you have to be lucky to fing a game in a bowling alley that doesn't rely on a light gun or dance pad to attract customers.

Sorry I seemed to be saying you lacked experience. But playing a looped game is very different then one with actual stage progression when it comes to satisfying clears.
 

Twilight_guy

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Must... resist... urge... to... say... can't stop... self...
CRY SOME MMMMMMMMOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRREEEEEEEE!!!!!!!

Arcades, like games today, stride the ground of product and art. There's always a line between making cash and making a good game. Continues make cash. Another quarter is more money. Now as everyone knows, in a capitalist society we all bend to the all-might dollar. Companies knew continues and hard games mean more cash and jumped on it for capitalist reasons. Customers had the choice to go with it or deny this and force companies to remove continues or die. Customers made their choice. Continues are a consequence of what arcade goers wanted and what companies made money on.

Also, don't even try to tell me that Japan is more "skilled" or better then American using some arbitrary measurement. The Anthropologist inside me is having a fit at the very notion. A variety of cultural factors are responsible for these sorts of things beyond some bullshit about continues that's like saying a runny nose causes colds and not the other way around.
 

NeutralDrow

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Halo Fanboy said:
NeutralDrow said:
That still doesn't make any more sense, unless you don't consider fighting games, puzzle games, shooters (first-person, side-scrolling, etc.), etc. to be "games designed for continues."

If they weren't, one would imagine they wouldn't bother with that "Continue?" countdown with each one.
No they are not designed for continues, they merely have them. If they were designed for continues they would play like Narc, Total Carnage ect. Like how Doom isn't designed for God mode.

I would be very suprised if any respectable developer tested the balance, difficulty, extends and score systems on some guy credit feeding the game. That just doesn't happen because that's not how these people play the game.
No, it just doesn't happen because it's completely meaningless. You're talking about continues like they were emulator save states, a false equivalency.

You're still mistaking the actions and motivations of players for the actions of developers.

NeutralDrow said:
Um...dude? That's an incredibly good player, and he's playing on Dante Must Die. You didn't notice all those Prides devil trigger?
I meant the second easiest mission. Mission 1 is the easiest, mission 2 is second easiest. And Kail is a good player but what you posted is far from an impressive accomplishment. Mission 2 is just way too easy.
Then you completely missed the point of those videos, and the Truestyle Tournament. Mission 2 is selected because all it is is a giant, multi-round fight with a miniboss (that happens to have five of the game's represented enemies), rather than a standard boss and puzzle-solving/exploration.

EDIT: You're also wrong, by the way. Mission 6 is the easiest mission. You don't even have to fight in that one, if you already have or don't want Artemis.

NeutralDrow said:
So yes, it rather is evidence against his point. There is no effective difference between getting good at a game through repetition in the arcade and on a console...one is just more piecemeal and costs money with each application.
His point was that the non-arcade games were all too easy not that it is impossible to get good at them.
Then he has no point at all, considering he used Ninja Gaiden 2 as an example of "easy." There's hyperbole, then there's talking out of your ass.

Unless I'm misremembering, and it was you who said that. I hope not, I'd rather aim my full contempt at someone I'm not talking to.

NeutralDrow said:
Honestly, I have recording better demos than that in this game.
Unless you're secretly <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeA7wWSLlVw>Brea or <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvfbT36ao5E&feature=related>Xarugas in disguise, I'm gonna call bullshit.
I'm an average player but I have managed to SS every level on DMD. I have demos recorded for most mission, all of which are much more challenging then mission 2. Even my mission 2 vid is a bit more aesthetically interesting the Kail's. Kail spent most of the time using Jam session and reverb shocks with time lag. Personally I think my vid shows more agression and interesting combos like the Drive > Reverse Million Stab thing.
Dude, if we were going just by combos, <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFSW4_H-WJ8&feature=player_embedded>you already lost miserably.

Even if I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and just compared it to one of the Truestyle trickster entries (again, you appear to have missed the point of the videos; that was specifically Kail's Quicksilver entry), yours was boring as hell; it was like something I could manage.

<url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpJ8mcKEbrU>Not like this guy.

NeutralDrow said:
If you call items, story, and upgrades to be "unacceptable," Devil May Cry would have to be boring as shit to be acceptable.

You know, aside from the fact that it would be completely impossible as an arcade game.
Yeah, items and upgrades lead to grinding and grinding basically destroys the difficulty curve of a game. The only reason for upgrades to be unlockable is for people who want to have the extra challenge of not using them. The cutscenes are just a bunch fun/cool action scenes they could save for advertising or something.

And DMC3 on normal is far from impossible to beat all in one try. In fact it would be easier then beating bloody palace mode. If it were an arcade game then it would only have DMD difficulty (the only good mode) it would have less padding, useless parts, inane puzzles and mindlessly easy bosses like Cerberus, Nevan, Geryon, Lady and Doppleganger
Translation: you'd turn it from Devil May Cry into a 3D Streets of Rage.

Again, boring as shit.

You can see me abusing all the stupid broken aspects of the game if you care to watch my videos.
...meaning you're a hypocrite? I mean, if you were really all about the self-imposed challenge, you'd play like <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54Anlqt6IYo>this guy.

Playing these games is so different from playing a cave shootemup. in Cave games milking requires that you be one of the best players in the world and no bosses are trivialized in braindead loops.
Of course they are. Everything is "braindead" once you've built the muscle memory to win. Even I Wanna Be The Guy is like that.

I'd bring up God Hand in Hard mode, but that lets you continue for free, so I assume you'd consider it the devil or something.
 

NeutralDrow

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Father Time said:
Chibz said:
They wouldn't know challenge if you smashed them over the head with it.
Or maybe they don't like challenge.
Or don't especially care. I'm aware that Argorok isn't a difficult boss in Twilight Princess. I'm also aware that I'm grappling like Spider Man to the top of a tall tower, breaking the dragon's armor by slamming it into the ground, then grappling my way back up to attack it's weak point for massive damage.
 

Chibz

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Father Time said:
You don't get to redefine what the term gamer means just so you can sound cool (and arrogant). Gamer is simply someone who regularly plays video games not someone who enjoys a challenge.
Or maybe they don't like challenge.
Or, perhaps I just heavily resent the newfags to the hobby? The ones who are of questionable merit as gamers?

Also, I get to redefine whatever I want. I am the all knowing, all powerful Wizard of OZ!
 

Halo Fanboy

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NeutralDrow said:
No, it just doesn't happen because it's completely meaningless. You're talking about continues like they were emulator save states, a false equivalency.

You're still mistaking the actions and motivations of players for the actions of developers.
I'm taliking about continues like they are God mode in Doom. Not like they were savestates.
And I don't see where I mentioned the motivations of the developer and it certainly isn't the player's actions to design and test the game. I thought the player merely played the game for fun. [/quote]
NeutralDrow said:
Then he has no point at all, considering he used Ninja Gaiden 2 as an example of "easy." There's hyperbole, then there's talking out of your ass.
NG2 isn't really that hard. It takes me much longer to complete most arcade games honestly.

NeutralDrow said:
Yeah I am much worse than Kail and much much worse than anyone else you mentioned. I still think the video you posted originally is still total crap though.

And certainly the loops in DMC3 are simpler than muscle memory. You really only have to be awake in order to win against Geryon or Nevan because the timing is so leniant for spamming real impact.

This discussion on DMC3 is pretty off topic though. I only really want clarification on your first point.