"How Cover Sytems Ruined Shooters..."

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

"...For People Who Prefer To Run and Gun." should have been the correct title for this video:


Yeah I really don't buy into the whole anti-cover system rhetoric these kind of gamers spout in these videos and forums as if this was an objective fact.

Sometimes I like to hold up and camp in a place and take cover and mow down enemies witha machine gun while they are funneled and they have to force me out. Some of the better memories I have with Gears of War 2 Horde Mode.

I know I shouldn't be complaining about this, but jeez I really needed to say something, and to be fair I do want to be that guy who defends cover system and thinks there are ways to make it better. For one Regenarating Health should not be in a Cover Based Game. Gears Horde mode imo would be better if it had Limited Health.

 

[B-Cell_v1legacy]

I have made this thread long ago and yes cover and regen health ruined third person games. and entire genre suffer. we never had TPS as good as Mafia 1 and Max payne.

and that also include vanquish. never understand why people like it. its same crap but just fast paced sliding.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Yeah I really don't buy into the whole anti-cover system rhetoric these kind of gamers spout in these videos and forums as if this was an objective fact.

Cover just like most game mechanics can be used wrong and most of the time (again, just like anything else), it is used wrong/poorly. Ghost Recon Future Soldier demonstrated [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgrbDF032LQ] how to use cover not only for defensive purposes but offensive purposes as well. Cover is a bit of an odd mechanic because it's really not effective against human players and you put yourself at a disadvantage using it most of the time because you lose your freedom of movement (biggest issue for new players is using cover way too much). If you watch any top players play a competitive 3rd-person cover shooter, you'll see that the cover system is used very sparingly. For example, it's usually far better to stand behind a wall than stick to it (which is way "soft" cover systems like TLOU or MGS5 suck). Vanquish is a great shooter with cover because the game gives you the tools to always stay out in the open if you get good enough because you can avoid literally every attack. Too many cover shooters do devolve into whack-a-mole, which isn't very fun or satisfying, and that's why cover gets a bad name.

Cover is also usually associated with over the shoulder aiming, which forces you to walk or run very slowly whenever you want to shoot. That's boring gameplay.

That's subjective. There's different styles of shooters because not only style is the end all be all. Moving while attacking is something you usually can't do regardless of the style of combat. It's a tried and true game mechanic where you can't be fully offensive and fully defensive at the same time. You can't even attack during a move action in DnD.

Putting a health regen system in a supposedly fast-paced shooter was a daft idea. As always, your health drains very quickly, because that's the only way to make an infinite health system challenging. You're frequently forced to run slowly or wait behind cover until the loud, annoying beeping stops.

You can dodge every attack in Vanquish so it's sorta your fault for having to take cover.

It's a paradox of a game, on the one hand wanting to be fast-paced and on the other using a system made for slower combat. A good arcade game wouldn't make the entry and medium skill levels so fucking boring.

And videos on Youtube prove that wrong.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

"A good arcade game wouldn't make the entry and medium skill levels so fucking boring."

Mediocre. A paradox of a game.

Cover is also usually associated with over the shoulder aiming, which forces you to walk or run very slowly whenever you want to shoot. That's boring gameplay.

That's subjective. There's different styles of shooters because not only style is the end all be all. Moving while attacking is something you usually can't do regardless of the style of combat. It's a tried and true game mechanic where you can't be fully offensive and fully defensive at the same time. You can't even attack during a move action in DnD.

Lol, comparing a tabletop game to a shooter. Your style of shooters is lame and should be purged.

I started playing the demo of Vanquish not like a cover shooter so it played great on entry. The first thing I do in any shooter is run and gun as much as possible to see how much I'm allowed to get away with, then dial it down from there; you start at the other end as per your story about how you "got" MP3. Vanquish is game that's not about "skill" as you don't need to get good at say aiming to be good, it's about understanding and utilizing the mechanics properly, which you aren't good at by the videos you posted. Being good at only a very select style of gameplay and wanting everything to play like that just shows you have trouble adapting to anything different and mastering a new set of mechanics.

Name other combat styles that allow you to be fully offensive and defensive at the same time. Even in sports, it's easier to throw a baseball or football standing still vs moving. It's a normal real-life give and take that transitions perfectly to gaming of any kind.

 

[kasperbbs]

I don't really have a problem with cover mechanics. As far as i can remember i always used it, even when it wasn't introduced as a thing that you can do when you click a button or a thing that happens when you get close to an object. Even more so before regenerating health. Perhaps my memory is failing me, but i would like to know what kind of game this actually ruined, because i'm having a hard time remembering any. What i can remember is stting behind corners with my crosshair lined up where enemies head would show up or spamming health cheats in vice city. If a game didn't have bullet time or something else those were your options when your health got low and not much has changed since then, except regenerating health.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I think the problem with cover systems isn't the cover system itself, it's that it perpetuates a lazy playstyle that developers seem to embrace.

Cover should be part of the way you move through the level. It's a tool to get you from one point to another while minimizing damage taken. The problem is, most players just glue themselves to a single piece of cover and sit there, let the enemies come to them, kill them all and move on. They don't use cover to move, they use cover to stand still and turn the game into a shooting gallery.

That's less the fault of the players though, and more the fault of game designers. Players will almost always take the path of least resistance, and developers should know that.

There should be a reason to get into cover, and also a reason to LEAVE cover. Levels should be built in a way that allows enemies to flank you so that no piece of cover is completely safe. Cover should be destructible so that you can't sit behind it forever. Maybe there should be an objective that you have to reach so that you can't sit around waiting for all the enemies to be dead.

The point is the cover system should be used to make game-play more dynamic, but in most games it's used to make the gameplay more one-dimensional.

 

[Kerg3927]

I don't see the issue. Feels totally natural to me. If someone was shooting at me in real life, the first thing I'm doing is finding cover. Even hunting, when nothing is shooting back, I'm using cover, both to hide and to use the cover to lean my rifle on for better accuracy. I can see how run and gun would be more exciting for some people, but to me it feels unrealistic and silly, exposing yourself like that and sacrificing accuracy because you have to shoot freehanded.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Meh. I did run and gun and slide. You admitted that you didn't see my first video until after you hounded me for months. But I played most of it on hard mode, which one of the people in my Vanquish thread recommended to keep it from getting boring. Apparently, I was also affected by double damage caused by the higher framerate in the PC version, a bug that was later fixed. But it's STILL a paradox of a game, using a system ill-suited to fast-paced action. Like I said, Devil May Cry's healing system would have made more sense. Anyway, Vanquish has other problems that keep it from ever being entertaining in repeated playthroughs.

Running and gunning does require you to be defensive as well.

You did so many things wrong in so many of the videos, I don't think the order I watched them in matters. There was one video of you using cover in the middle of a level and getting mad at getting shot from both sides. There was a video of you using a sniper rifle (not even quick-scoping or anything even), machine gun, and machine gun as your loadout getting mad that it took so long to kill stuff when not using any of the good guns (and that was like halfway through the game). I think every video had you using basic machine guns ignoring all the other guns because you tried say the LFE gun once and didn't like it yet I told you how amazing it is while showing a video of a great player owning the hardest challenge of the game with it, but no Ezekiel knows so much better than everyone else (if only your results matched what you think you know then I'd agree). It's like your MP3 videos you made to "prove" cover is less effective by going down the middle of a level having everyone shoot at you from all angles.

I think the problem with cover systems isn't the cover system itself, it's that it perpetuates a lazy playstyle that developers seem to embrace.

Cover should be part of the way you move through the level. It's a tool to get you from one point to another while minimizing damage. The problem is, most players just glue themselves to a single piece of cover and sit there, let the enemies come to them, kill them all and move on. They don't use cover to move, they use cover to stand still and turn the game into a shooting gallery.

That's less the fault of the players though, and more the fault of game designers. Players will almost always take the path of least resistance, and developers should know that.

There should be a reason to get into cover, and also a reason to LEAVE cover. Levels should be built in a way that allows enemies to flank you so that no piece of cover is completely safe. Cover should be destructible so that you can't sit behind it forever. Maybe there should be an objective that you have to reach so that you can't sit around waiting for all the enemies to be dead.

The point is the cover system should be used to make game-play more dynamic, but in most games it's used to make the gameplay more one-dimensional.

You said everything I was trying to say but so much better. Ghost Recon Future Soldier's cover system is the best exactly because it allows for more dynamics than any other cover system.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Whatever. I'm sick of talking to you. All you ever do when I talk about Vanquish is bring up those videos. You ignore my arguments because it's more convenient to blame skill. Health regen and low health in a game like Vanquish IS a problem. It could have been a much better game with a good health/stamina system. I'm not alone in thinking so. Sterling might not be that good at the game, but he was right in that review you referred me to. I don't like the guns either. They're your typical big, bulky sci-fi military guns. Nothing about Vanquish was exceptional. It was dull.

Lol, I'm not supposed to use videos of your own mistakes against you (for playing the game wrong)? I literally just said in THIS thread that Vanquish ISN'T about skill, it's about understanding the game mechanics and their interplay with each other. It's not about getting better at aiming, it's about knowing when to use stuff and when not to. Plenty of people that aren't even good at shooters can play Vanquish and have a great time because it doesn't actually play like a shooter [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG8LVpuzYls]. You can avoid every attack in the game, you don't die because the hitscan said you died like every other shooter. You don't understand game mechanics, you probably think just like Jim Sterling that melee in Vanquish shouldn't use up all of your energy while not understanding that if it worked any other way, it would literally break the game.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I posted those videos to show I tried, not to have you hound me for a year. I wouldn't ignore someone's criticisms of Max Payne 3 just because they aren't good at it. The mechanics don't impress me.

Some criticisms are just plain wrong and due to not fully grasping game mechanics. It's like saying a rogue's DPS isn't high enough in DnD when you aren't sneak attacking. Or I had a friend get pissed over a game of Through the Ages because he thought the military was overpowered due to him deciding not to build up his military at all and everyone else exploiting that. Through the Ages is a game you can't min/max at and do well, you have to cover every base and my friend didn't like that. Not liking that a certain style of a game (like I hate deck-builders) and blaming mechanics is 2 different things. For example, the deck-building mechanic is fine and I actually enjoy the mechanic in other games like Tyrants of the Underdark and the Clank! games so claiming something like an OTS camera is INHERENTLY bad is a pretty limiting viewpoint. I still don't understand how you can't see that a gun that provides amazing crowd control is somehow useless when it's basically your "get out of jail free" card. You need to explore the space a lot more with games like hating on Dishonored just because you can do X and you don't like X when the game allows you to do A-W,Y&Z that you may very well enjoy if you gave them a chance but you get hung up because you don't like X.

 

[infohippie]

I despise run-and-gun gameplay, that's what ruins shooters for me and why I dislike most of the entire genre. Cover shooting is much better, but sneaking and sniping is the most fun I have in shooters. Camp in one place and take targets down with carefully placed single shots, disappear when spotted and find another place to camp without being found, that's so much more fun than dodging and spraying bullets.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

I haven't played very many cover-based shooters but I think it's pretty bullshit that Gears of War (of ALL cover-based shooters) gets flak for it's cover system when it has the best cover-based shooting of any game I've seen, barring perhaps Far Cry 3 with Ziggy's Mod. Really now. If Gears of War bores you, turn up the damn difficulty. The game will get you out of your hidey hole REAL fast. Well, that or you die because you're gonna get flanked right up the ass. Also bring a friend because GoW is at its absolute best in co-op.

 

[Ender910_v1legacy]

I've never been much for cover systems. Having cover in a shooter is great, but the actual mechanics behind cover systems rarely feel natural to me.