How dare you disrespect the Artistic Vision of The Order 1886.

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Fishyash

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Dec 27, 2010
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Normally artistic vision is brought up as a result of what I like to call "reactive game design".

For example, Zarya is a very typical example of reactive game design. It was reaction to potential customers who wanted a more diverse cast of characters (neutral/positive). The ME3 ending change was another one (negative).

The problem is when people complain about this is that game developers do it all the fucking time. Play testers, surveys, content and balance patches, and publishers.

I'm not saying that it's fine to do in every circumstance. A game developer should not be bowing to every whim of people to want them to make changes to the game. I still believe the developer should be following their original vision for the most part.

These things should be judged on a case by case basis. Zarya for example has compromised nothing, on its own. Honestly in a game like Overwatch they could take it further by making character design contests (similar to the boss character contests in the Mega Man series). As long as Acti-Blizz focuses on creating characters that they want primarily, it's all good to me. They just need to make sure to draw the line somewhere. I might as well also add that it wasn't like Blizzard was under any actual pressure to make this Zarya. Say what you want, but no way would a AAA dev 'crack' under tweets from strangers on the internet or opinions from journalists. Good developers don't crack under fucking publishers, let alone random strangers, so it's very likely that they really wanted to make Zarya anyway.

Reactive game design isn't necessarily bad in its own right, but can be easily misused and if left unchecked it can ruin your game. I said Mass Effect 3 was a negative example but not exactly a game ruiner. Ultima VIII and IX were extremely rushed games because Garriott put up with EA's ridiculous deadlines for those games.

As for The Order, their game looks very good (aside from the retarded letterboxing) but despite not playing the game, the shooting sections looked pretty dull mechanics wise, which ironically damages the game on an aesthetic level too. They followed their artistic vision to a T, and executed it perfectly. The big downside was it was a deeply flawed artistic vision, one that held it back from becoming a truly fantastic game. Even if they decided to make 51% of their game based on feedback/criticism they received it would have probably made their game even worse.

TL:DR - Reactive game design is fine, but only in heavy moderation. Too much of it can comprimise your artistic vision. Either way, it's not a simple black/white issue.
 

CaitSeith

Formely Gone Gonzo
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"rife of QTEs = artistic vision" Sorry, I have to go to the floor and laugh for 1 hour...
 

sageoftruth

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Jan 29, 2010
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I haven't played it, but based on reviews I've read, the game looks good and has good cutscenes with great voice acting. Basically, it's nice when you consider everything except for the game itself.

With that said, I don't think criticizing the game's lousy gameplay is taking a shot at the artistic vision, since the artistic vision lies outside of the gameplay, unlike something such as Brothers: Tale of Two Sons.

Even if I were to assume it did have a brilliant artistic vision, that doesn't mean I should buy it, and I won't be insulting the vision by choosing not to.

That's the thing about art. If it's so artsy, then put it in a museum. Don't expect me to purchase it.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Jun 5, 2013
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sageoftruth said:
With that said, I don't think criticizing the game's lousy gameplay is taking a shot at the artistic vision, since the artistic vision lies outside of the gameplay, unlike something such as Brothers: Tale of Two Sons.
Not that I don't agree with you, I do. But couldn't someone just say it was the artistic vision to have less interesting gameplay compared to the cutscenes? Basically setting The Order up for either a DVD release or a crappy tv show? That The Order, much like Sonic Boom, is basically a feature length commercial for other projects?
 

sageoftruth

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Silentpony said:
sageoftruth said:
With that said, I don't think criticizing the game's lousy gameplay is taking a shot at the artistic vision, since the artistic vision lies outside of the gameplay, unlike something such as Brothers: Tale of Two Sons.
Not that I don't agree with you, I do. But couldn't someone just say it was the artistic vision to have less interesting gameplay compared to the cutscenes? Basically setting The Order up for either a DVD release or a crappy tv show? That The Order, much like Sonic Boom, is basically a feature length commercial for other projects?
Good point. I suppose idea of it being a mere prologue could be a part of a vision. It's certainly bad business to charge $60 for a commercial, but it does make everything about the game, including the lackluster gameplay part of the art.

Thinking about it that way, this is starting to sound like one of many cases of a game falling flat because it was part of some agenda, like those bible games and environmental games. When devs are too focused on something like sending a message, or in this case, setting us up for something that will be released later, the devs often forget that they're supposed to be making a good game as well.

Anyway, I'm trying to decide if this is an artistic vision or a business vision, or if the difference between the two really matters in this case. They could be arguing that without slogging through The Order's lackluster gameplay, we won't get the ideal experience from the main product that they envisioned. In that case, it would count as an artistic vision. Of course, it's still on them for making a prologue that we don't want to slog through. Art in games is about eliciting a reaction from your audience and not knowing your audience is going to be fatal for any artistic vision.
 

Sigmund Av Volsung

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Dec 11, 2009
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Oh I disrespect that vision. I disrespect it all over the developer's face.

I'm going to grab my pitchfork and join my fellow plebians in the riots that descend in the streets because this artistic vision sucks.
 

Tilly

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Underlying this ridiculous issue is our pre-order hype culture, which seems to just be taken as necessary. People pre-order games based on preview trailers. They therefore feel entitled to a certain amount of quality for their money. About half of those games will tend to fall below their average expectation so they'll start whinging.
Simpler solution: don't preorder games. Wait for the reviews. If the game gets a 6.5/10, don't buy it. Problem solved.
 

Signa

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Jul 16, 2008
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So I watched this last night:

It's Redlettermedia, so while they aren't known for game analysis, they did take on a separate angle for reviewing the game as a movie, or at least an interactive story a la Telltale games. Still completely failed in their eyes.
 

Amir Kondori

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Apr 11, 2013
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tf2godz said:
Silentpony said:
I get it! It's sarcastic!

No but seriously, what's the point of this one? To defend bad games, or to piss off people who demand good games?
I think it's a satire of the whole Zayra being created as a Response to Body-Type Diversity Criticism and people throwing a shitstorm about it crying that blizzards artistic integrity was being violated.

even if a little exaggerated it has a good point, can criticism turn to bullying.
Except no one actually claims that in that thread, rather Zhukov strawman's it with this early post "B-b-b-but the artistic vision!

Won't somebody please think of the artistic visions being violated by all this diversity?"

Not saying I don't like the character, I like the character.
 

Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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Amir Kondori said:
Except no one actually claims that in that thread, rather Zhukov strawman's it with this early post "B-b-b-but the artistic vision!

Won't somebody please think of the artistic visions being violated by all this diversity?"
Nobody makes this argument, eh?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/9.871865.21867124

Oh yeah. People make this argument. People do it whenever any kind of discussion over diversity or representation comes up. Then and only then. Because when that discussion comes up people suddenly start giving a lot of slack to stupid arguments (see also: "Well you should go make your own game then").
 

Irick

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Apr 18, 2012
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Zhukov said:
Nobody makes this argument, eh?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/9.871865.21867124

Oh yeah. People make this argument. People do it whenever any kind of discussion over diversity or representation comes up. Then and only then. Because when that discussion comes up people suddenly start giving a lot of slack to stupid arguments (see also: "Well you should go make your own game then").
I know it was your artistic vision to make a parody thread, but i'm going to drop a Serious Commentary bomb.

It's odd to me just how reactive the game development market is.

So, imagine for a moment that you are marketing a movie and your cast list gets released. Then, suddenly, you get your film-critic audience getting really hyped up but bemoaning your lack of a diverse cast. Then, in order to address these concerns, you create a new character and write them in.

It just wouldn't work. You are in post-production, anything you shoot at this point will just be a flimsy editing trick and the narrative cohesion will be gone. Think of a Godfrey Ho film. However, in video games, it totally happens and it might not suck!

That's such an interesting idea to me. Especially if we consider some of the games of say, Overwatch. With something with minimal in game story and more emergent story based on gameplay I can see the players picking up the slack and incorporating the character pretty fully into the mythos. It's pretty neat actually.

I can't think of too many mediums where the fanbase can help set direction and follow through with carrying it on their shoulders like that. I really kinda like that idea, because I see it as something unique to gaming. However, when we consider the way that AAAs want to differentiate themselves from their competition by throwing around "Cinematic" and evoking the magical Auteur theory in a blatant attempt to cash in on some of the cultural capital of the film industry like a fix-all elixer, we inevitably are going to butt heads.

To be clear though, I'm not saying that Auteur theory isn't applicable to video games or that we should dismiss the idea of an artistic vision realised through the medium. I just think that we should equally celebrate how flexible our medium is to allow new methods of collaboration like this.

Boom.
Deal with it. :3
 

DementedSheep

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Jan 8, 2010
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I know isn't it terrible? it's a shame that so many games that started as artistic expression and are not at all designed to appeal to certain groups are forced betray that vision! Game developers are pure but fragile souls who upon seeing any criticism of their work are heartbroken and have no choice but to bend to the will of critics.
 

RJ 17

The Sound of Silence
Nov 27, 2011
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You now what the really funny thing about the "lets defend artistic vision" argument is? Even with the assumption that such an argument is valid - that is to say it's perfectly acceptable to have a game that has more cutscene time than actual gameplay and a story that purposefully goes nowhere because it was part of the creator's artistic vision - that doesn't then suddenly make whatever someone creates as per their artistic vision above reproach. NOTHING is above criticism. I could take a dump in a shoe box and call it an expression of my artistic vision, and I promise you there'll be plenty of people that'll call it a piece of shit. :p
 

Irick

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Apr 18, 2012
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RJ 17 said:
I could take a dump in a shoe box and call it an expression of my artistic vision, and I promise you there'll be plenty of people that'll call it a piece of shit. :p
Can it. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist's_Shit]

In all seriousness, the idea of artistic vision has always been debated within any given medium, as is the validity of that vision opposed to critisism. In the end really only time can tell. It may shift between the two polls, in any case we should neither be afraid to stick to our guns as artists nor to criticize art as critics. Of course, we will always argue about this because someone has to be wrong, right?

(A slight appeal to the mods to let me have the double-meaning joke! It's contextual not and not truly mean hearted.)
 

RJ 17

The Sound of Silence
Nov 27, 2011
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Irick said:
Of course, we will always argue about this because someone has to be wrong, right?
Nah, we'll argue about it because evidently there's a group of people that think that just because something has been put under the umbrella of "this is art" that suddenly you're not supposed to point out the obvious flaws in it. As an artist, you're free to create whatever kind of art you want, and you should have the absolute confidence and courage to stand by your art with pride. However there will always be critics of your art, and if you can't take the criticism and start crying about how the critics and negative feedback on your art is "bullying" then you really shouldn't be in the business of creating art in the first place...because from that perspective all you're doing is asking to be bullied.

You wanna know the trick to being a good artist? Learn from your criticism and negative feedback...don't cry about it.

(Note: the above is just a general statement not directed at anyone in particular. Well, I guess it's directed at the makers of The Order and anyone who would try to defend them due to their "artistic vision".)
 

Islandbuffilo

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Apr 16, 2011
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Tilly said:
Underlying this ridiculous issue is our pre-order hype culture, which seems to just be taken as necessary. People pre-order games based on preview trailers. They therefore feel entitled to a certain amount of quality for their money. About half of those games will tend to fall below their average expectation so they'll start whinging.
Simpler solution: don't preorder games. Wait for the reviews. If the game gets a 6.5/10, don't buy it. Problem solved.
I get the feeling the first couple of reviews for the order gave it a 8/10 or higher.

Just like how destiny was given 10/10 despite all the people saying it was a 7/10 at best.
 

Tilly

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Mar 8, 2015
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Islandbuffilo said:
I get the feeling the first couple of reviews for the order gave it a 8/10 or higher.

Just like how destiny was given 10/10 despite all the people saying it was a 7/10 at best.
Where was Destiny given 10/10? Obviously things like metacritic are needed so we can get a sense of the average of the varying reviews. I've never understood people who don't like scores and metacritic. Seems pretty essential to me. Unless you have hours to spend reading a variety of reviews.
 

sky14kemea

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Jun 26, 2008
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What an interesting thread...

I don't know what the discussion was meant to be though.