How do my fellow escapists feel about guns? (The real kind)

Recommended Videos

Treblaine

New member
Jul 25, 2008
8,682
0
0
EllEzDee said:
Armyguy0 said:
EllEzDee said:
Civilians and cops with guns = stupid.
Cops with guns = stupid why?
Why does a police officer need a gun? So they can kill people? I think the number of videos of American cops shooting unarmed civilians demonstrates this perfectly. If civies didn't have guns, there'd be absolutely no reason for a cop to have one. (Obviously not including specialist teams like SWAT)
Derrick Bird, THAT is why we need routinely armed police.

To spite the virtual gun prohibition in the UK with a crude single shot weapon he was able to shoot down 24 people, murdering 12 of them while the unarmed police were forced to run and hide and wait for the "rapid response" armed force. Just a month later Raul Moat paralysed an entire region's police force when he went on a more sustained gun rampage where nothing stopped him targeting police officers, shooting one in the face leaving him severely disabled. HE was a criminal who was able to tap into the large black market for illegal guns in the UK.

Patrolling Officers and detectives are PART OF the community, they know the people and locale and empathise with all of that. When CO19 come charging in they don't know the area, they don't know if there are kids around that like to play with toy guns, or others who might use a harmless air rifle, nor the trouble makers or general attitude. It's as bad as calling in the military, all they really know is how to shoot and they DO take on an invader mentality. They arrive at scenes with vague second hand information that is so out of date and so prone to misinterpretation it's worse than nothing.

That's where CO19 get their reputation for shooting unnecessarily and I believe this is down to their nature as a very separate and de-facto paramilitary force:

When Abdul Kahar's home was raided he got shot in the shoulder. A single shot, there is no logical reason for him to have been shot as he was posing no threat and even if they did think he was a threat he would not have been shot just once. I think like the case of Harry Stanley they simply shot by accident, they carelessly had their finger on their trigger and flinched at seeing an unexpected movement.
They were afraid, confused and poorly disciplined. De Menezes shooting again is a case of negligence as they shot a man who posed no possible threat (either by accident or in illogical panic) targeting him due to mistaken identity. The surveillance team had to be separate from the arresting team that led to CO19 team both not knowing well enough who to arrest and also not having a clear idea of the threat, they assumed he was a suicide bomber executing an attack! If one of the detectives on the surveillance team had the power to make an armed arrest then there would have been a far lower risk to the public.

I'm not saying we don't need CO19, they are clearly necessary for severe threats like a Mumbai style terrorist attack, hostage situations, large scale armed robberies and so on.

But lone gunmen are best dealt with As Soon As Possible, as soon as shots are heard the nearest patrol officer or authorised/deputised armed citizen should approach with a firearm to engage them. A cop with a revolver responding within seconds is better than a dozen Machine gun armed Commandos arriving 15 minutes late on poor 2nd hand information. At the very least a cop with a revolver can more confidently stay close to and advance on a gunman, pass on better info about where they are and what threat they pose.
 

spartandude

New member
Nov 24, 2009
2,721
0
0
Pyode said:
spartandude said:
would you guys rather be in a fight where you are fighting 7 people and everyone involved (you and them) has a gun or where everyone uses fists?
I would much rather be shot then beaten to death by 7 people. So yea... I'd rather we all had guns in that particular scenario.
my point us would you rather get beaten up or shot dead not beaten to death

if u was surrounded by a bunch of criminals there is a greater chance il just get beaten up rather than beaten to death, however if guns come into the mix i would be dead
 

macfluffers

New member
Sep 30, 2010
145
0
0
spartandude said:
my point us would you rather get beaten up or shot dead not beaten to death

if u was surrounded by a bunch of criminals there is a greater chance il just get beaten up rather than beaten to death, however if guns come into the mix i would be dead
That makes no sense. If 7 people want you dead, and all those people are in the same room as you, you will die.

Conversely, if nobody wants to kill you, then the presence of a gun won't change that.
 

spartandude

New member
Nov 24, 2009
2,721
0
0
You guys can say its for self defence and that if there were more restrictions on guns criminals would still get them because they brake the law any way and blahh blah blah

compare the amount of gun murders from the USA to places like UK, France, Austrailia, Canada and such, you know thet places with gun restrictions and suddenly America doesnt look so good
 

SmokingMirrors

New member
Oct 3, 2010
89
0
0
Hm, so many a threads concerning this subject... I wonder how many times i've repeat myself already. But I think someone else already managed to capture my feelings on the matter, and thus I do believe i'll quote my fellow Escapist;
Verp said:
Good for hunting, sport, and the army and the police force, pretty much overkill for anything else -- at least in my country.
Accurate, to an extent.
 

macfluffers

New member
Sep 30, 2010
145
0
0
spartandude said:
You guys can say its for self defence and that if there were more restrictions on guns criminals would still get them because they brake the law any way and blahh blah blah

compare the amount of gun murders from the USA to places like UK, France, Austrailia, Canada and such, you know thet places with gun restrictions and suddenly America doesnt look so good
I hate it when people don't do the research on this stuff. Canada has a 22% gun ownership rate. In other words, they have a lot of guns!

And I've mentioned this before, but it's easier to prevent smuggling when you're an island nation...like the UK and Australia.

And again, Switzerland has a high gun ownership rate (higher than the US I believe) and it has an extremely low gun crime rate. Would you look at that!

PS- France's gun ownership rate is 23%. America? 25%. Yeah, such a huge difference. /sarcasm
 

Kraiiit

New member
Aug 15, 2010
151
0
0
Asuka Soryu said:
"A submachine gun! Now I can solve 600 problems a minute."
I'm taking this gun away from you, Mister. You can sit there and think about what you've done.
 

Guitarmasterx7

Day Pig
Mar 16, 2009
3,872
0
0
They're cool and fun to shoot (on a range of course,) and they look awesome. They're very capable of being dangerous in the hands of a dangerous, stupid, or irresponsible person, but also are the most efficient method of protection against said individuals. A gun is a tool. The root of the problem is the person, not the weapon.

I'm not going to lie and say that guns lower violence, because we could argue that until the cows come home and neither one of us could know for sure, but I support the right to own a firearm because I don't think that my personal freedom and safety should be given up because of the occasional tragic shooting blown way out of proportion by the media. Should they be controlled to some degree? Absolutely. If somebody has a serious psychological disorder or criminal record, the last thing you should do is give them a gun. Though outright banning them for everybody, besides being pretty much impossible, isn't something I support.

Also, this is probably a more personal thing, but if the day comes when I AM murdered, I would much rather be shot than I would stabbed or cut open. Getting slit up and bleeding out sounds much less appealing than getting a chunk quickly taken out of me.
 

spartandude

New member
Nov 24, 2009
2,721
0
0
macfluffers said:
spartandude said:
my point us would you rather get beaten up or shot dead not beaten to death

if u was surrounded by a bunch of criminals there is a greater chance il just get beaten up rather than beaten to death, however if guns come into the mix i would be dead
That makes no sense. If 7 people want you dead, and all those people are in the same room as you, you will die.

Conversely, if nobody wants to kill you, then the presence of a gun won't change that.
if you study any kind of basic criminology you learn that most of the time violent crim will is not intended to hurt someone, but merely to obtain some thing (money or whatever), most crimes done with the intention of violence result in a beating not a murder, however when weapons (especially fire arms) are involved it will often result in a murder even if it was intended as a petty crime

as such i ask you, would you rather get beaten up or have a chance of being shot dead?
 

spartandude

New member
Nov 24, 2009
2,721
0
0
macfluffers said:
spartandude said:
You guys can say its for self defence and that if there were more restrictions on guns criminals would still get them because they brake the law any way and blahh blah blah

compare the amount of gun murders from the USA to places like UK, France, Austrailia, Canada and such, you know thet places with gun restrictions and suddenly America doesnt look so good
I hate it when people don't do the research on this stuff. Canada has a 22% gun ownership rate. In other words, they have a lot of guns!

And I've mentioned this before, but it's easier to prevent smuggling when you're an island nation...like the UK and Australia.

And again, Switzerland has a high gun ownership rate (higher than the US I believe) and it has an extremely low gun crime rate. Would you look at that!

PS- France's gun ownership rate is 23%. America? 25%. Yeah, such a huge difference. /sarcasm
yes true, the big difference is with the words "ownership" and "restrictions" having a gun and being restricted on its uses and carrying it maybe similar but have different affects

granted i didnt take into account the island nation factor but you can see what im saying about restrictions, ofcourse there may acceptions to rule such as switzerland (also remember military service is cumpulsury there so they know about their rights in terms of fire arms very well) but then again tbh the countries ive mentioned (with britain only mariginally)have much better socio econmoic conditions, in that there arnt as many uneducated morons living in aweful conditions compared to america

just because other countries are allowing guns doesnt mean america should aswell, especially as it is a country that apparently isnt well prepared for it
 

macfluffers

New member
Sep 30, 2010
145
0
0
spartandude said:
if you study any kind of basic criminology you learn that most of the time violent crim will is not intended to hurt someone, but merely to obtain some thing (money or whatever), most crimes done with the intention of violence result in a beating not a murder, however when weapons (especially fire arms) are involved it will often result in a murder even if it was intended as a petty crime

as such i ask you, would you rather get beaten up or have a chance of being shot dead?
That doesn't make sense. You're saying that a mugging turns into a murder just because the mugger has a gun? That's far-fetched. If all other factors are the same, I don't see why holding a gun would turn a thief into a killer.

Or are you saying that if I have a gun it will change? Well, if he doesn't see my weapon, then it doesn't matter. I'd still either obey the mugger, or stun him with a Krav Maga technique and run. I wouldn't even think of using the gun if he already has a weapon on me, I'd be too slow.

If he did see my weapon, why would he need to shoot me? He'd probably tell me to get on the ground so he could steal my gun. Sure, he has the option of killing me, but then again, he always had that option.

spartandude said:
just because other countries are allowing guns doesnt mean america should aswell, especially as it is a country that apparently isnt well prepared for it
I don't think that's unfair, but we should realize the difficulty of disarming America. It would be more hassle than it's worth. Do YOU want every two-bit militia turning into a "freedom fighting" right-wing terrorist group? I certainly don't.
 

CanHasDIY

New member
May 7, 2010
25
0
0
spartandude said:
You guys can say its for self defence and that if there were more restrictions on guns criminals would still get them because they brake the law any way and blahh blah blah

compare the amount of gun murders from the USA to places like UK, France, Austrailia, Canada and such, you know thet places with gun restrictions and suddenly America doesnt look so good
How silly... I can name another society that didn't think an armed populus was a good idea... the Nazi's. One of the first things Hitler did was round up all the guns, so the citizens couldn't defend themselves against his armies.

As for criminals, lemme drop a little knowledge on ya - if someone has the intent to kill, they're gonna do it, whether by gun or sword of bomb... take the Tucson shooting for example. As a result a lot of the busy-bodies in this country are calling for a handgun ban. Personally, I would much rather be assaulted by someone with a handgun than, say, a high-powered hunting rifle... at least with the pistol they would have to get within sight range; the rifle shot you may never hear coming, a la the D.C. sniper incident. Not to mention, had the shooter been unable to acquire a firearm, who's to say that he wouldn't have throw together an incendiary device, which would have had a much greater area of affect, thus causing greater damage?

As the saying goes, an armed society is a polite society. Makes me glad I live in the "concealed-carry and proud of it" Midwest.
 

Bugerion

New member
Jan 10, 2011
253
0
0
Guns don't kill people,people kill people guns just make it a bit easier for them to do so and because of that I have to say NO to guns
 

Treblaine

New member
Jul 25, 2008
8,682
0
0
Serris said:
Treblaine said:
Serris said:
Treblaine said:
If the right to self defence is a basic human right then I see it as contradictory to deny civilians any right to firearms and/or the right to use them in self defence.

It's no good to say I can go fisticuffs with hardened thugs who mean me harm when as hardened criminals they'd always have the advantage after leading a life of violence. Not to mention regardless of weapon prohibition they can arm themselves with effective weapons from knives and clubs to black market firearms. Guns level the playing field, favour those on the defensive.
funny thing: i live in a country where guns can only be obtained when you have a license (well, outside of black market). yet there are no madmen having shootouts at my local school/neighbourhood, nor in my country in general. there has been only 1.

yet when i look at news from the united states... but i'm sure the nine-year old girl from arizona would agree with you, free guns for everyone!
Care to say WHICH country you come from? You are being awfully vague and I can't tell if you are missing out critical details.

"yet there are no madmen having shootouts... there has been only 1. "

You argument defeats itself, to spite strict prohibition there has still been mass killing with guns. What about those victims? Who could have protected them? You also admit your country has an arms black market, that presumably only those with criminal intention would use.
first off: i'm not talking about strict prohibition. read my post, i said it's government regulated, and you can buy a gun if you own a license. these licenses are only given out after rigorous testing for mental instability, emotional background (recently divorced and such) and criminal record (the slightest crime makes it impossible to buy a gun). even then every gun has to be registered with the authorities.
That is almost identical to the United States, which somehow has become the baseline for comparison.

now when you look at the USA, i'm sure you can agree that not only have there been more mass killings which you can blame on higher amount of people living there, there have also been a lot more accidents related to guns like the kid who found a gun on the table and shot himself while playing with it, which you cannot.

my country is belgium btw.
Well the accidental death of children allowed near firearms is as tragic as it is preventable. You'd never let a child access to chemicals under the sink or the booze cabinet, there are so many dangers in the world to young children it is no use blaming the world when it is the parent's negligence that is at fault. You wouldn't think a parent would let their child drive their car but when such tragedies happen no one blames the car, nor even the parent for not hiding their car keys as how many parents leave their car keys in easy reach of children?

I'm don't want to make a ghoulish comparison of the number and type of each spree killing but Belgium has had at least 2 serious spree killings and America has a MUCH larger population, 32 times the size. So I don't think there really is any comparison to make, you really need to find another country of similar size and demographics as the USA but one that does not merely prohibit wide gun ownership, but prohibits wide gun ownership to spite criminals widely having access to firearms. Because that is all gun legislation seems able to do is reduce the legitimate use of guns.
 

Knusper

New member
Sep 10, 2010
1,235
0
0
I am only comfortable with the army, those riot police who raid terrorist suspects' houses and licensed hunters having guns; and the latter only having a simple shotgun/ bolt-action rifle. In all other cases I find it unnecessary.

I certainly believe that the public should be banned from having any handgun or automatic firearm.
 

spartandude

New member
Nov 24, 2009
2,721
0
0
macfluffers said:
spartandude said:
if you study any kind of basic criminology you learn that most of the time violent crim will is not intended to hurt someone, but merely to obtain some thing (money or whatever), most crimes done with the intention of violence result in a beating not a murder, however when weapons (especially fire arms) are involved it will often result in a murder even if it was intended as a petty crime

as such i ask you, would you rather get beaten up or have a chance of being shot dead?
That doesn't make sense. You're saying that a mugging turns into a murder just because the mugger has a gun? That's far-fetched. If all other factors are the same, I don't see why holding a gun would turn a thief into a killer.

Or are you saying that if I have a gun it will change? Well, if he doesn't see my weapon, then it doesn't matter. I'd still either obey the mugger, or stun him with a Krav Maga technique and run. I wouldn't even think of using the gun if he already has a weapon on me, I'd be too slow.

If he did see my weapon, why would he need to shoot me? He'd probably tell me to get on the ground so he could steal my gun. Sure, he has the option of killing me, but then again, he always had that option.

spartandude said:
just because other countries are allowing guns doesnt mean america should aswell, especially as it is a country that apparently isnt well prepared for it
I don't think that's unfair, but we should realize the difficulty of disarming America. It would be more hassle than it's worth. Do YOU want every two-bit militia turning into a "freedom fighting" right-wing terrorist group? I certainly don't.
i am open to the idea that i did not explain my self properyl or that you gun nuts are so retarded and cant put 2 and 2 together (please ignore my spelling and gramma). im not saying it automatically 100% of the time results in murder but it massively increases the chance especially if someone resists