How do you feel about breaking the forth wall in fiction (movies, TV, games, books or plays)?

[dscross]

I rewatched a few movies / TV specials recently that decided to break the forth wall (two in particular). I also played two recent popular video games that did the same (I won't mention which ones because I don't want to spoil them). In all of these, they didn't just break the forth wall for a second as a joke, it was used as a huge plot twist.

In general, I do not like this. I feel like it's lazy writing. In all cases, I have been REALLY enjoying the mystery of it all and I'm fully engaged in the story. But the mystery turns out be something to do with the characters becoming self aware that they are part of a story, or something like that, and it completely breaks my immersion. I end up very disappointed in the endings. I just don't find it that clever and it seems, to me, like an easy way out. I guess I can handle it more when it's the odd one liner as a joke (like in Monkey Island, for example) as long as it's not constant or a main plot point.

Of course, it depends how it's done, but I can't think of many instances at all where I've enjoyed forth wall breaking. Have I just not come across a good one yet or am I looking at this the wrong way? Or do you agree with me?

 

[tippy2k2]

To me, the biggest issue with Fourth Wall is how it is done.

Two pieces of media that I think it was done really well but for two very different reasons; Deadpool and House of Cards

Deadpool is the easier example so we'll go with him first. For one, it's a comedy; comedies can get away with fourth wall breaks MUCH easier. Unlike a mystery or a thriller, a comedy can get away with reminding the audience that what it is viewing isn't real. It helps that Deadpool is known for it so going in, you're prepared for it.

Now House of Cards is to me one of the few "serious" shows that pulled off the fourth wall break and it is for one simple reason; it was established right away. The very first episode establishes that Frank Underwood will talk to the audience about what is going on in the story. Sometimes he talks to us to give us elaboration on what he is planning, sometimes he does it to vent, and sometimes he does it for funsy. The important part is that the show established he would do it.

So to me, the important part is establishing how and why the fourth wall breaks will be used. Those are the keys to making it work.

 

[Kyrian007]

It really doesn't affect how much I'll enjoy something. I can think of examples on either side, 4th wall breaks I like and those I don't. I think the important thing is how its handled.

I think maybe Metal Gear had something to do with it. As a kid having to look on the back of the game's box to find a codec frequency to continue on in the game. If that major a 4th wall break wasn't going to affect how immersed I was in the experience... I don't really think anything will.

Really I think it's just the nature of fiction. What is most important is how well it's written. If I'm gonna suspend disbelief enough to buy ghosts and psychic powers and cardboard disguises... 4th wall breaks really aren't going to "take me out of the experience."

 

[Marik2]

I like how it's done in the Metal Gear Solid series. It feels really natural, and it suggests that all the games are VR archives of real events.

 

[peacefulescape]

I agree that it's ultimately how well they do it and the extent they portray it across to the audience. Some shows portray it well, breaking the 4th wall as a central foundation to the game/show, while others may use it for lack of better ideas, resulting in a seemingly lazy portrayal of characters.

 

[Hawki]

It...depends on how it's done?

Usually I'm fine with it, but I can't arbitrarily declare 4th wall breaks good or bad, it depends on execution.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Now House of Cards is to me one of the few "serious" shows that pulled off the fourth wall break and it is for one simple reason; it was established right away. The very first episode establishes that Frank Underwood will talk to the audience about what is going on in the story. Sometimes he talks to us to give us elaboration on what he is planning, sometimes he does it to vent, and sometimes he does it for funsy. The important part is that the show established he would do it.

So to me, the important part is establishing how and why the fourth wall breaks will be used. Those are the keys to making it work.

British or fake one that my brain automatically reroutes to the real one in order to avoid boredom and pointless relationship fillers thataren't really fillers because they chew up 80% of some episodes I watched but couldn't bring myself to complete?

Because if you say British, yes. BBC HoC is how you do Fourth Wall.

 

[tippy2k2]

Now House of Cards is to me one of the few "serious" shows that pulled off the fourth wall break and it is for one simple reason; it was established right away. The very first episode establishes that Frank Underwood will talk to the audience about what is going on in the story. Sometimes he talks to us to give us elaboration on what he is planning, sometimes he does it to vent, and sometimes he does it for funsy. The important part is that the show established he would do it.

So to me, the important part is establishing how and why the fourth wall breaks will be used. Those are the keys to making it work.

British or fake one that my brain automatically reroutes to the real one in order to avoid boredom and pointless relationship fillers thataren't really fillers because they chew up 80% of some episodes I watched but couldn't bring myself to complete?

Because if you say British, yes. BBC HoC is how you do Fourth Wall.

I was referring to the Kevin Spacey one on Netflix.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I was referring to the Kevin Spacey one on Netflix.

Yeah, still not getting the attraction ofthat show. I tried watching the 1st Season and.... argh. Can I ask why people think this is a good show? It's 80% filler.

It's like an apple turnover that's too much pastry and syrup. No substance.

The Fourth Wallbreaking merely servesa cardinal sin of Frank Underwood spewing somefucking stupid life lesson or semantics, or some moralizing onthe nature of power.

When Urquhart broke the Fourth Wall, it was because you got to see a glimpse into his mind which was important because the plotlines were dense ... often with a multifaceted number of angles or political bents to it, and you could actually appreciate what are in essence less Fourth Wall breaks, and more direct soliloquys to the audience as you begin to understand his political genius.

With Frank Underwood it's more; "And that's why I feel this way about [insert concept here]."

It's a copout.

You don't need his mindless pap, because the storylines aren't as intricate or carefully constructed. It's just him telling you why he's a heartless prick.

You could cut out at least the S1 soliloquys of Frank Underwood and lose nothing.

With Urquhart's Fourth Wall breaks, sometimes he didn't even need to say something... just look at the camera after one of his machinations begins to unfold.


It serves to walk you his political position, overseeing the obstacles he's facing and even what attracts him to the job...


Or it even dives into discussing the finer points of moral philosophy and how he views rigid approaches to one's moral flexibility...

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Like any literary device it depends on how it's used. Obviously 4th wall breaks are easier to pull off in comedies because your audience is not taking it that seriously to begin with, but even than like any joke it has to be pulled off right otherwise it falls flat.
I remember that the 80's TMNT cartoon used to break the 4th wall all the time and I remember finding that really annoying.

 

[dscross]

I like how it's done in the Metal Gear Solid series. It feels really natural, and it suggests that all the games are VR archives of real events.

Your Avatar is an example of 4th wall breaking as a major plot point. How did you feel about that one? You should maybe put spoiler tags though.

 

[Xprimentyl]

I?m sure they could be used to good effect outside of comedies, but I prefer my fourth wall breeches be kept to the lighter side. I feel it works best when it?s used to bring the audience ?in on the joke? as it were; I?ll second the vote for Deadpool. I can?t think of any serious films that broke the fourth wall off the top of my head, but the idea of it feels like it?d be out of place in most cases. I mean, why do it? If you can?t convey or imply the complexities of a serious subject, emotion or thought process without essentially hitting pause and addressing the audience directly to make sure they?re picking up what you?re putting down, maybe you?ve got bad writing on your hands? I have seen it done in stage theater where a single character will come to the apron and in essence narrate the unspoken lines of the play whilst everyone else stands stock still, often mid action, and it comes across as silly and slows the pacing, imho.

 

[dscross]

I?m sure they could be used to good effect outside of comedies, but I prefer my fourth wall breeches be kept to the lighter side. I feel it works best when it?s used to bring the audience ?in on the joke? as it were; I?ll second the vote for Deadpool. I can?t think of any serious films that broke the fourth wall off the top of my head, but the idea of it feels like it?d be out of place in most cases. I mean, why do it? If you can?t convey or imply the complexities of a serious subject, emotion or thought process without essentially hitting pause and addressing the audience directly to make sure they?re picking up what you?re putting down, maybe you?ve got bad writing on your hands? I have seen it done in stage theater where a single character will come to the apron and in essence narrate the unspoken lines of the play whilst everyone else stands stock still, often mid action, and it comes across as silly and slows the pacing, imho.

There are a few comedies where the idea of it completely ruined it for me. The Red Dwarf special, back to earth would have been sooooo much better without all that. The league of gentlemen film did the same thing, Oh god it was horrible. I think when it?s a major plot point it?s worse for me than the odd joke.

 

[Hawk of Battle]

I'm currently on a massive RWBY binge, and they do occasionally 4th wall break, but only very subtly. Mostly by lampshade hanging events or ideas that fans want to see or fan theories they shoot down, but they do it in a logical, in-universe fashion. Other than that they leave in references in certain songs, like Armed and Ready being laden with puns, or the latest song from volume 5 that is basically a reason you suck speech from 1 character to another during an epic fight, which has the line "No one will miss you" which is undoubtedly directed as much to the fans as the characters themselves, regarding which character is about to die.

I'm totally ok with it all.

 

[09philj]

Depends. I really like the way it's done in Bravely Default.

Spoiler

The big bad of the game is a universe eating monster that wants to get to the celestial realm, and the main main character has been being guided by a celestial being the whole time. During the climactic battle, the walls between worlds begin to crumble, revealing the true nature of the celestial realm and the beings within; it's our world, and the one who's been guiding the heroes is you.

It's also an intrinsic part of Tearaway. You are personally part of the story. You have to photograph yourself at various points, and use the Vita's various inputs to remove obstacles, and make artistic decisions.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

To me, the biggest issue with Fourth Wall is how it is done.

Two pieces of media that I think it was done really well but for two very different reasons; Deadpool and House of Cards

Deadpool is the easier example so we'll go with him first. For one, it's a comedy; comedies can get away with fourth wall breaks MUCH easier. Unlike a mystery or a thriller, a comedy can get away with reminding the audience that what it is viewing isn't real. It helps that Deadpool is known for it so going in, you're prepared for it.

I'll go one further with Deadpool and add that its also explained (at least in the comics) that in his insanity, he realizes he lives in a comic book universe and thus is somehow able to glimpse the fourth wall so he totally acknowledges it which bleeds over to his encounters with other characters who've no idea what he's talking about, which adds to the hilarity. It also at the same time is kind of tragic because in realizing he's really just someone else's creation and at the mercy of whatever creator currently has license to dictate his universe, he's got no real control over what he does and thus is resigned to it, armoring himself with humor which again is paradoxical since he's written to be like that. Its an excellent use of the 4th wall whether intentional or just a side-effect of the concept of his character, it adds that small bit of depth and tragedy to a character that otherwise would be just a two-dimensional slapstick wackjob.

 

[Marik2]

I like how it's done in the Metal Gear Solid series. It feels really natural, and it suggests that all the games are VR archives of real events.

Your Avatar is an example of 4th wall breaking as a major plot point. How did you feel about that one? You should maybe put spoiler tags though.

It completely obliterated the 4th wall. It's the only 4th wall breaking I can think of that is used in an unsettling way.

Spoiler

Monica reads your computer and even knows if you're streaming the game. Even watching a playthrough;I had to pause myself and say, "is this real?".

 

[Chessrook44]

All of the yes. Not only do I enjoy fourth wall breaks, but I personally feel that one great thing about Video Games, as shown in several more recent games, is that it can break the fourth wall like nothing else. A movie or book can make vague references to the audience, but games can be more specific to you.

Spoiler

Games like Doki-Doki and OneShot illustrate this best, actually causing effects outside the game, OneShot being the pinnacle example.

Throughout the game OneShot, not only are you effectively as much a character as the main character, Niko, but the game is aware of your name from the start, puts files in places like Your Documents and briefly changes your background, and performs a few other fourth-wall breaking moments. Add in delightful characters and the fact the fourth wall breaking is literally a part of the plot and gameplay, and it is in my opinion the best way to illustrate how to do breaking the fourth wall RIGHT and EFFECTIVE in a videogame.

Doki-Doki is like a lesser version of OneShot's fourth wall breaks, but still retains its effectiveness, using the fourth wall breaks to make a relatively effective horror game, one that can give legitimate fear and concern to several people, as illustrated by Marik above me.

The earlier-mentioned Metal Gear Solid is an older, but somewhat legendary example. That one villain knowing your every move unless you plug your controller into port 2 is probably one of the most well-known examples from the distant past. Admittedly I don't know much else, having never played it, but it's a very nice twist to add some flavor to the game.

 

[Dudemaker]

It can be a lazy excuse for genuine humour, especially these days when self-referencialism is so popular in pop-culture (thanks Joss Whedon).
If it's done well or fits the tone of the medium then i love it.
From blatant examples like Deadpool to less obvious self referencing like Stargate, I rarely mind it as I'm never not-conscious that i'm watching a show/movie and therefore have no illusions to be destroyed by fourth-wall breaks.
At the same time, it sometimes seems (as mentioned before) lazy or even smug. I seem to remember Eddie Murphy was fond of little glances at the camera in some of his movies, never amused me.

 

[dscross]

snip

It actually spoiled the first example you mentioned for me. It's one of the things that inspired this thread. I was really enjoying it up until the twist. Totally took me out of it. There are loads of other directions they could have taken it in, in my opinion.