How does Wakanda make sense as a nation?

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I get the purpose of Wakanda, to subvert a stereotype regarding african countries that a lot of western audiences believe. these stereotypes are patronising and simply false today.

Except that they aren't false. Wakanda is fictional. There is no actual country in Africa even remotely like that. It might subvert a stereotype (tho I don't believe that's its purpose), but that doesn't change the fact that the only rich, technologically advanced modern-day nation in Africa is a fictional one.

 

[Saetha]

I get the purpose of Wakanda, to subvert a stereotype regarding african countries that a lot of western audiences believe. these stereotypes are patronising and simply false today.

Except that they aren't false. Wakanda is fictional. There is no actual country in Africa even remotely like that. It might subvert a stereotype (tho I don't believe that's its purpose), but that doesn't change the fact that the only rich, technologically advanced modern-day nation in Africa is a fictional one.

I mean, it's not like Africa's all mud huts and bare-foot children. They have cities and urban centers. They have several nations that are doing fairly well (South Africa and Egypt, for instance) on a global level. Maybe there's no African nation that's at Wakanda's level (Of course, it seems like there isn't a nation anywhere that's at Wakanda's level) but I'd hesitate to say nothing in Africa is technologically advanced.

 

[Politrukk]

DISCLAIMER: I have not read the comics. If there is a logical explaination in the comics for the question i am about to ask, let me know
In Civil War we meet T'Challa, the fresh king of Wakanda, a small country neighbouring Nigeria that has been a highly reclusive monarchy for as long as anyone seems to remember. In the movie T'Challa mentions that in the wakandan culture the traditional view of the afterlife entails a sort of elysian field governed by Sekhmet (an egyptian warrrior godess, former bodyguard of Ra, associated with lions) and Bast (an egyptian warrior godess, current bodyguard of Ra, associated with cats). This means that Wakanda has been in isolation since before the conquests of Alexander the Great who inserted the Ptolemaic dynasty which made the olympian gods the new majority religion. Although the most important egyptian gods were retained and the old customs remained vital to society there does not appear to be any greko-roman influences in the culture of Wakanda, nor any colonial, christian, arab or muslim influences. Wakanda is believed to be a primitive third world country but is actually the most technologically advanced and wealthy country on earth and the only one capable of processing vibranium. I get the purpose of Wakanda, to subvert a stereotype regarding african countries that a lot of western audiences believe. these stereotypes are patronising and simply false today. What i don't get about Wakanda is how they became so wealthy and advanced when they are complete isolationists and have been for at least 2500 years. Trade is vital to building up an economy and to exchange knowledge which leads to scientific developement. Today we like to imagine scinetific progress as something that is exclusively made in laboratories but it is more complicated than that and always has been. adapting ideas from other prts of the world will require them to be changed in order to suit local conditions, potentially leading to improvements and discoveries along thee way. Newcoman made the first steam engine but James Watt is much more famous because he improved the existing technology to such an efficient level that it remains an integral part of modern energy production. Local needs and conditions are also a factor in the creation process of innovations. many historians have questioned why the industrial revolution began in england rather than say China, a highly developed country ruch on resources. My answer to that question is: China didn't need the steam engine as much as England. Chinese agriculture and industry was already the most efficient in the world. their main import was silver to be able to make enough coins for their massive economy. england had coual adn iron in abundance but much of it was not only underground but under water as well. the steam engine could efficiently empty out flooded mines and make previously unobtainable resources readily available. At the same time it wasn't england alone that revolutionized industry. ideas, resources and technology from all over europe went into the industrialization. and while englland may have started things off germanny was quick to catch up and improve upon the system with their welfare state. Without the ability to learn from the other powers in the world, how could wakanda possibly have reached the level it did? as for economy Wakanda is rich on vibranium but as several countries have demonstrated resources are not enough. Wakanda doesn't even have any trade partners to sell their resources to or to buy important resources from. and in such a small country the complete reliance on their own market would quickly lead to stgnation. So the question is: How could Wakanda possibly be as advanced as it is?

Wakanda is even supposedly "undiscovered" for the longest time in the comics because they're in such thick jungle and have hidden so well.

They live in a sort of utopian society ruled by the Black Panter and their wealth is due to their vast excess in resources specifically vibranium.

Wakanda,Atlantis and the city of the Inhumans are three nations that share in their isolationist policy and totalitarian and utopian society.

 

[Politrukk]

Isn't Dr Doom also a head of state? How does the country ruled by a supervillian compare with the one ruled by a superhero?

Dr Doom did manage to conquer the world once. He did a very good job running it, and did voluntarily step down after a time.

OT; If I recall in the comics correctly, Vibranium is not a naturally occurring element on Earth. But the result of an alien space craft that crashed in Wakanda's borders. All their tech was derived from that alien ship, the hull of which was made of Vibranium.

Although his name might have people thinking otherwise the modern incarnation of Doom is a sensible leader who does senseless things outside of his own border, as long as you're within his borders you'll live a good life.

 

[Trunkage]

Isnt the idea of Wakanda being more advanced that the troupe think based on real life experienced. Like Ethiopia not being colonized because it was advanced (at least until the WW2) Or how the Dutch found the East city states after rounding the Horn of Africa. Because although there was a "dark age" in Europe, there wasn't anything like that every else and Africa traded with China, Java, Indian and Muslems.

 

[mduncan50]

Isnt the idea of Wakanda being more advanced that the troupe think based on real life experienced. Like Ethiopia not being colonized because it was advanced (at least until the WW2) Or how the Dutch found the East city states after rounding the Horn of Africa. Because although there was a "dark age" in Europe, there wasn't anything like that every else and Africa traded with China, Java, Indian and Muslems.

Hard to say exactly, because different cultures are more advanced at different times. Like the fact that the first university was built in Africa, but when Europeans showed up the natives had regressed from that point, or said European dark ages retarding development in the region for centuries. I think everyone's thinking a bit to hard about why Wakanda was set up that way, when I think it more of less came down to Stan thinking it was cool.

 

[jpmaggers]

Isnt the idea of Wakanda being more advanced that the troupe think based on real life experienced. Like Ethiopia not being colonized because it was advanced (at least until the WW2) Or how the Dutch found the East city states after rounding the Horn of Africa. Because although there was a "dark age" in Europe, there wasn't anything like that every else and Africa traded with China, Java, Indian and Muslems.

Hard to say exactly, because different cultures are more advanced at different times. Like the fact that the first university was built in Africa, but when Europeans showed up the natives had regressed from that point, or said European dark ages retarding development in the region for centuries. I think everyone's thinking a bit to hard about why Wakanda was set up that way, when I think it more of less came down to Stan thinking it was cool.

I don't normally post (in fact I've had this lurker account since 09), just wanted to respond to claim that the first university was built in Africa, whilst the Al Quaraouiyine was founded in 859 (which is the normal claim though there are a couple of other institues that make claims around the time including an indian institute) it was very different to what we consider a university. The first establishment similar to what we would consider a university was the University of Bologna which was established in 1088. If you want to make the arguement that the Al Quaraouiyine was an earlier university then you'd have to make arguement why it claims the title in comparison to educatory institues that had existed prior to it some more than a 1000 years previously in a number of major empires including the Romans, Byzantines, Greeks and China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation


That point made I do agree that it probably just come down to Stan thinking it was a cool idea and just throwing it in.

 

[CyanCat47_v1legacy]

I get the purpose of Wakanda, to subvert a stereotype regarding african countries that a lot of western audiences believe. these stereotypes are patronising and simply false today.

Except that they aren't false. Wakanda is fictional. There is no actual country in Africa even remotely like that. It might subvert a stereotype (tho I don't believe that's its purpose), but that doesn't change the fact that the only rich, technologically advanced modern-day nation in Africa is a fictional one.

What i meant was that people in europe and the united states tend to think of africa as a continent full of nothing but poverty, militant groups, overpopulation and starvation despite the fact that 4 out of the 10 quickest growing economies in the world are in south africa. granted there are places on the countryside where a conditions remain abismal but those are literally the only places in africa we are shown 99% of the time. for example everyone talks about the genocide in rawanda and the following crisis in which more than half the population of the country was below 18 but unless you do some research you will not know that since then there has been a great deal of recovery and developement.

 

[mduncan50]

Isnt the idea of Wakanda being more advanced that the troupe think based on real life experienced. Like Ethiopia not being colonized because it was advanced (at least until the WW2) Or how the Dutch found the East city states after rounding the Horn of Africa. Because although there was a "dark age" in Europe, there wasn't anything like that every else and Africa traded with China, Java, Indian and Muslems.

Hard to say exactly, because different cultures are more advanced at different times. Like the fact that the first university was built in Africa, but when Europeans showed up the natives had regressed from that point, or said European dark ages retarding development in the region for centuries. I think everyone's thinking a bit to hard about why Wakanda was set up that way, when I think it more of less came down to Stan thinking it was cool.

I don't normally post (in fact I've had this lurker account since 09), just wanted to respond to claim that the first university was built in Africa, whilst the Al Quaraouiyine was founded in 859 (which is the normal claim though there are a couple of other institues that make claims around the time including an indian institute) it was very different to what we consider a university. The first establishment similar to what we would consider a university was the University of Bologna which was established in 1088. If you want to make the arguement that the Al Quaraouiyine was an earlier university then you'd have to make arguement why it claims the title in comparison to educatory institues that had existed prior to it some more than a 1000 years previously in a number of major empires including the Romans, Byzantines, Greeks and China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation


That point made I do agree that it probably just come down to Stan thinking it was a cool idea and just throwing it in.

The thing that separates universities from regular schools is the autonomy, both of teachers to teach what they want and how they want, and for students to choose what they wish to learn. While Al Quaraouiyine is an older educational institution, it did not begin life as a university, but as an institute for religious studies.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I get the purpose of Wakanda, to subvert a stereotype regarding african countries that a lot of western audiences believe. these stereotypes are patronising and simply false today.

Except that they aren't false. Wakanda is fictional. There is no actual country in Africa even remotely like that. It might subvert a stereotype (tho I don't believe that's its purpose), but that doesn't change the fact that the only rich, technologically advanced modern-day nation in Africa is a fictional one.

What i meant was that people in europe and the united states tend to think of africa as a continent full of nothing but poverty, militant groups, overpopulation and starvation despite the fact that 4 out of the 10 quickest growing economies in the world are in south africa. granted there are places on the countryside where a conditions remain abismal but those are literally the only places in africa we are shown 99% of the time. for example everyone talks about the genocide in rawanda and the following crisis in which more than half the population of the country was below 18 but unless you do some research you will not know that since then there has been a great deal of recovery and developement.

Your own original post argues why Wakanda couldn't exist (I assume so, I can't read the whole thing). It doesn't even make sense in a fictional setting and couldn't exist in reality. It only exists in fiction and it's not to subvert westerners expectations, it's a plot device for the unobtainium and a backdrop for adventures/stories to take place in. It exists to give us Black Panther and Captain America's shield.

It's not a case of "stereotypes" and how they're patronising (to whom?). Unless something's changed without the entire world hearing about it, sub-Saharan Africa is still rife with poverty, warlords, corruption, disease outbreaks, highest HIV rates, kidnapping, drought, famine and the rest. Alongside the poor in S. America, those are still the poorest places in the world. Creating a rich, advanced nation for a comic book and supposing it's to show the world that Africa isn't still poverty stricken is farcical, especially when reality doesn't agree. That would only make sense if Wakanda was a fictional representation of a real place. There might be development and growing economies, but sub-Saharan Africa is still among the least developed and poorest places on actual Earth.

But even in fiction, a very isolationist nation that avoided all influences from major world powers whilst accumulating vast wealth from a rare metal that they haven't actually sold to anyone else (in any meaningful quantity) makes no sense.

 

[jpmaggers]

The thing that separates universities from regular schools is the autonomy, both of teachers to teach what they want and how they want, and for students to choose what they wish to learn. While Al Quaraouiyine is an older educational institution, it did not begin life as a university, but as an institute for religious studies.

That's an intesting way of looking at it and I certainly agree that the autonomy played a part in the definition of the difference between educational institutes and universities as a more defined structure. Though I think it goes a lot further than that other than that the University of Bologna coined the term university there are other differences such as the idea of degrees as proof of education. When it comes to acacdemic autonomy we can see quite a lot of this all the way back to physicians studying at the Library of Alexandria where a great deal of autonomy was affoarded to both students and teachers in regards to areas of study and participation.

I agree that the Al Quaraouiyine was not a university (though my original point was exactly that) I brought it up as you originally claimed that the first university was built in Africa which is why I thought you meant the Al Quaraouiyine. When it came to educational expansion Africa in general (other than a few key port cities) had a much smaller academic sphere than for example the Holy Roman Empire which contained a majority of the early universities for hundereds of years.


It feels like I'm getting really off topic on this, I was just quite interested in this tangent. My orginal intention was to point out the Africa was already somewhat academically isolated so a further isolated African state would likely suffer even more from poorer academic and thus technological infrastructures. But all in all it's moot as Marvel put it in production and has no compulsion to conduct realistic world building so Wakanda is what it is.