How far should "It's my body, I can do what I want" go?

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Virus0015

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Dec 1, 2009
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I don't mind if people excessively use drugs, smoke, drink lots etc. In the UK however we are for example obliged to pay for a excessive smoker to have a lung operation despite everyone knowing the severe health affects, so I would word it rather as "do what you want, but if you do something very stupid and you know the consequences, you will be footing the medical bill"

Back to the OP, it's a bit of a tricky subject. I would define the line of a baby being an independent entity when it is born. So yes, it is your body and you can whatever you want. However if the mother does give birth to the child, they will be have complications, and THAT should be illegal. Children should be given every opportunity to be born equal, and not crippled for life because their mother was a moron.

So in summary:

Knowingly and avoidably damaging the baby, then having an abortion: Morally ambiguous but should be allowed.
Knowingly and avoidably damaging the baby, then giving birth: Should be illegal.
 
Aug 1, 2010
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If it's your body and you are the only one effected by what you are doing to it, go nut's.

Drugs? Of course.

Drinking? Why not!

Beastiality? Explore!

On the other hand, if what you are doing to your body is effecting someone else, (like your unborn child) you should either abort it, or take care of it.
 

Artina89

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Oct 27, 2008
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Bakuryukun said:
You SHOULD be able to do almost anything you want with your own body. But when you pregnant, it's not just YOUR body now is it?
Agreed. What a selfish *****. There are people out there that would love to have a child and do what they can to keep the child safe, and here is this stupid, childish person who is too selfish to give up alcohol to avoid any potential damage she could do to her baby. I hope child protective services or social services (I don't know which country she is from) take a look at her and see if she is truly fit to be a parent.
 

tzimize

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Mar 1, 2010
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Bakuryukun said:
You SHOULD be able to do almost anything you want with your own body. But when you pregnant, it's not just YOUR body now is it?
Basically this. While I support the womans right to drink herself into an early grave, I do not support slavery. She does not own the child, she is simply its caretaker. And she is not taking care of it.
 

00slash00

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Dec 29, 2009
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you should be able to do whatever you want with your body as long as it isnt harming someone or something else. that late into the pregnancy, it is completely unacceptable. but im sure her friends and family are right, im sure she will be the best mother in the trailer park
 

Comrade_Beric

Jacobin
May 10, 2010
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Eri said:
There are only two possibilities here: You must either accept that a woman is allowed to do what she wants with her body, even if it has consequences for her baby, or you must make it illegal and throw women in jail for drinking while pregnant. What happens if she didn't know she was pregnant? If you say "well, that shouldn't be a crime" then part of the criminal proceeding must be proving that the would-be mother knew she was pregnant at the time, this is tricky because "I didn't know" is going to be the immediate response and it is incredibly hard to use her own medical records against her in a trail.

Here's the problem with the current on-going trend towards recognizing unborn babies as complete humans: If killing a pregnant woman makes you guilty of two counts of murder, if abortion makes you guilty of murder, and/or it is illegal to drink while pregnant because of the danger posed to the "person" inside... then why shouldn't we prosecute mothers who have miscarriages? There's a name for this supposed crime. "Involuntary manslaughter."

The line of logic which suggests that babies are fully entitled humans has a lot of implications I'd wager even pro-life conservatives would consider absurd. Given the choice between throwing miscarriage-stricken mothers in jail or allowing idiot pregnant women make poor decisions, I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with freedom and a woman's right to her own body. I weep for her stupidity, but if the only way to prevent her stupidity is to tell her that the state has more rights to her body than she does, then weeping is as far as I'll ever go.
 
Jun 23, 2008
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This is an excellent example of a case in which the true rammifications of the most basic of property rights (that is, a woman's sovereignty over her own body) is seen. If I were to go only on what is said in the original post[footnote]This sort of thing happens All. The. Time. so the situation is not unique. My own mother lived on two glasses of wine a day minimum, and didn't slow while she was pregnant with me. Of course, this was in an era when we didn't yet know the correlation between even light drinking and natal problems was significant.[/footnote] we could assume the woman intends to carry to term, but I wonder if she chose to do so or is being coerced by state, community and family. In this case she may simply be enacting a scorched-earth [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth] policy in response to denial of her rights to be in control of her self. In that regard, it is certainly an interesting tactic.

I'm pretty sure it would be impossible to enforce laws restricting the activities of women on the basis of their pregnant status. One could pass a law forbiding selling or providing spirit to anyone who was obviously pregnant, I suppose, but that would be about as effective as laws proscribing teens from drinking.

But even the consideration of creating such laws, or even mere policies condemning pregnant mothers who engage in behaviour risky to the birth could set some difficult precidents. What would the limits of such a policy be? Would we preclude pregnant mothers from other risky recreations, such as skydiving or mountain-climbing? Would we forbid them from continuing in risky professions (say working in a foundry or a construction site)? Would an expecting mother be allowed to set her own diet? Would she be allowed to drive vehicles or operate other heavy machinery?

Should an expectant mother be required to have a minimum income? Financial support from a family or husband? What do we do with an expectant woman who doesn't qualify? Force her to abort? Jail her?

Should we license birthing privileges to only those parents who qualify to raise healthy, well-adjusted children? Then, who would set the standards? Already, many communities don't believe gays or atheists should be allowed to parent. I'm not thrilled with radical activists, or racial or religious supremacists expanding their populations.

Normally, I would be thankful we have a justice system full of wizened jurists to work out such intricacies, but considering recent adjudicative failures regarding corporate personhood [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood], I'm resistant to trusting them with the personhood of fifty percent of the population.

I am surprised that so far (in 97 posts, as of my writing) in the is an unborn a person debate, there seem to only be two sides, that is: yes (personhood begins at conception) and no (personhood begins at childbirth), and not one has mentioned that personhood may begin somewhere along those nine months of gestation. Let me cover some of the basics:

Personhood at Conception has the problem that about 80% of conceived zygotes either fail to implant, or otherwise spontaneously miscarry, usually without the mother being aware of the process. If these entities are given citizenship at conception, there is no valid reason to protect them from induced miscarriage while leaving them to the greater risk of miscarriage by chance.[footnote]The pro-life community notes there have been about 35,000,000 abortions in the US since Roe v. Wade. During that time, there have been about 119,000,000 spontaneous miscarriages.[/footnote]

Personhood at Probable Viability is the point in gestation when statistically more than seventy-five percent of zygotes will gestate to term. The problem with this point is that there's no specific indicator that occurs at this marker. Nothing special happens. It's just designated based off statistics. This is about seven to ten weeks.

Personhood at Higher Brain Activity is the point, about 23 to 26 weeks, when higher brain activity can be detected. This is significant because we have determined already that a lack of higher brain activity signifies death, hence such a cadaver can be harvested for working organs. Our entire organ-donor system in the US works on this premise.

Biblical Personhood occurrs when Mosaic Law treats an infant equal to other human beings, and is, in fact thirty days after childbirth, before which parents are not allowed to ceremoniously grieve the loss of a neonate. Another interpretation puts personhood at first breath, as per the breath of life given to Adam by God, before which he was not regarded as alive, id est, a person.[footnote]Learn all about this stuff here [http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_when.htm].[/footnote]

In the meantime, my favorite solution to the controversy remains ectogenesis [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_uterus], which separates the gestation of prenates from the corporeal responsibilities of the mother. The era of the artifical uterus is almost upon us, yet neither side cares to invest time or money into its development.

238U.
 

Smagmuck_

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Aug 25, 2009
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Oh? You guys think this is bad? Just wait until her and her family stir up a shit storm because she had a challenged baby and if I can take a guess, she;ll be blaming other people for it too. What the hell did the bloody tart think was going to happen?
 

Ren3004

In an unsuspicious cabin
Jul 22, 2009
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As a future doctor, I want to take that baby out of her uterus and give him/her to someone who can take care of it. Also, her friends are idiots.
 

lee1287

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Apr 7, 2009
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Erm, it's your body, then do what you wish, but theres reprucations. My brother is into heavy tatoos and stuff, so now no one wil hire him because there visible when he works. Aduhh. With the Preggers thing. You're carign for a child, so no, it's not your body.
 

Buccura

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Aug 13, 2009
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Well I think we can draw the line when one decides to turn their own body into a bomb that goes off the second someone aggravates them. Just a thought.
 

Declaro

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Sep 1, 2010
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I believe in being able to do what you want to yourself, but seriously, if you're going to keep the kid the whole 9 months (and presumably not give it up for adoption), you need to act like a responsible adult and cut out the coke and vodka for the time being. If you can't take care of yourself, you have no right to raise a child.
 

Spineyguy

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Apr 14, 2009
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What other people do is none of my concern, the woman described in the example is clearly quite thick, and she is perfectly within her rights to abuse her body to the point where she is a hideous, deformed, half-human creature, able only to scrape out an existence.

If she miscarries or her baby is born with Infantile Alcoholism she will have no-one to blame but herself.

What I do have a problem with is that we in Britain have this sort of thing happening all the time, and that the dick-farts who do this to themselves inevitably get their healthcare on the backs of the general populace. In my opinion, which in no way reflects that of the rest of the country, people suffering from self-inflicted illnesses should pay for their own healthcare.
 

AndyFromMonday

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Feb 5, 2009
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It's no longer her body, is it? That body now houses another human being. She made the choice of keeping the child and now she's abusing it even before it's born. Isn't this illegal? If it isn't then it sure as hell better be made illegal. This is nothing short of child abuse.
 

Mr Somewhere

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Mar 9, 2011
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Well in this case, it isn't just "her" body, she should show some damned care for her own child. Clearly this woman isn't ready for motherhood, nor does it seem like she will ever be.

However, if this were any other case, I wouldn't care. One can do what they want. If they end up harming themselves, they've nobody to blame but themselves. So long as it does not involve the harm of another, I say do what you will. One should be able to fend for themselves (within reason).
 

Phoenix09215

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Dec 24, 2008
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I really hate the whole its my body saying because from experience its only ever used as an excuse to do something you shouldn't be doing. That said, if this woman continues she is going to learn that there are times when she can NOT do as she pleases with her body the hard way. I have in fact known someone who lost her baby after she continued to drink during pregnancy and no doubt something similar will happen in this case.
 

Korolev

No Time Like the Present
Jul 4, 2008
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If you intend to carry the child to term, drinking is immoral - because it is extremely likely that your drinking/drug taking will affect the life of that child. This has nothing to do with abortion, which is the termination of a fetus that WILL become a human but isn't yet. If you don't know you are pregnant/have no plans to carry the child to term, then yeah, go nuts, drink all you want. A fetus isn't a human being.... well, that's a bit iffy. I certainly believe an EMBRYO is not a human being, nor is a very early stage fetus or blastocyst (because they don't have brains at that stage). However, late term fetuses might have brains and so, would fall into the definition of human (yes my definition of human is: Brain? Human. No Brain? Not human).

So to sum up:

If you don't plan to carry your child to term, and it's at an early stage in the pregnancy - sure go nuts. Whatever's in your womb can BECOME a human, but isn't a human yet. Like how an Acorn-seed is not an acorn tree, an embryo or a blastocyst or a 4 week old fetus is hardly a human being, because they have no brains, no well developed organs, and cannot possibly be intelligent/conscious.

BUT

If you ARE planning to give birth, and if it is very late in the pregnancy, you should not drink or take drugs.