How it could be improved #3: Duke Nukem Series

[pulse2]

This was #2 For those that missed out: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.358415-How-it-could-be-improved-2-Tomb-Raider-Series#14160009

Yup, I went there, and all in good reasoning too....the last one was a complete shambles :/ I waited how many years for THAT?? Seriously? Would have probably been less painful grating my fingers.

Regardless, Duke back in the day was awesome, I remember the first time I played it was on my uncle's PC while he was looking after us for a day, I loved it and kept visiting just to complete that game, it was the very first Duke Game and from that point on I wanted all Duke related games.

The third person ones were okay, not as great as the first person shooters but I loved Duke games so I didn't care, then word of Forever came out and I couldn't have been more excited.....until time passed and my excitement slowly slipped away. Would this game ever release? Apparently not because it became a game I'd never play and the Duke series slipped into my archives of "games I used to play" so ahoy, of course the final release of Forever how many years later had me jumping for joy and what a bloody disappointment it was

Graphics, load times, gameplay, multiplayer, all so horribly dated it made me want to cry. So what do I want? A complete graphical overhaul, less loading, less parodies and more focus on originality, the game had some interesting ideas but didn't do anything with them. Jokes were lame, so yes, some better wit please, gameplay wise....sigh, where do I start? Driving sections, please remove, guns, please make more realistic and fun to shoot, I like power in my weapons, yes, there's quite a bit that needs improving to make me love this series again.

But what do you think?

 

[distortedreality]

I think the last thing Duke needs is realistic guns.

The game is meant to be over the top. Just not shit.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Does this apply to the 2D side-scrollers, or just Duke3D onward?
Because I still have love for Duke Nukem 1 and 2; and rarely play through them when I feel like I need some old school platforming that isn't from a Nintendo or Sega source (or Tomba for the PS1).

Well, since Duke3D is the game most gamers talk about when they talk about Duke Nukem, I had to ask.

If discussing from the point of the 3D games: Yeah. There are problems...so many problems.
I'm only going to posit one problem: Level design.

A big part of why I like Duke3D is that the levels in themselves have some character. Some of the more obvious references and Easter eggs are squirreled away or are flat out built into the level subtly (Episode 4 begins with "It's Impossible". An entire level that's a throwback to spy-action movies like James Bond and Mission Impossible. But not all of the references are quite so obvious).

When they boiled DNF's levels down to the same linear dross we've seen time and time again, it eliminates that character and a lot of interactivity. Instead, they've replaced the character with more overt and blunt attempts at humor since there isn't any real "level" to explore anymore.
And they replaced the level interactivity with QTEs and canned events...just like every other shooter out there, including the ones its satirizing!

And it's not like this would cripple gameplay development if it will add to design space. Eliminating the hyper-linear elements and reintroducing SOME elements of exploration would work wonders for the gameplay, and force the designers to actually putting some thought into the level design.
Deus Ex: Human Revolution thrived on that sort of semi-branching for its more linear segments.

 

[pulse2]

Does this apply to the 2D side-scrollers, or just Duke3D onward?
Because I still have love for Duke Nukem 1 and 2; and rarely play through them when I feel like I need some old school platforming that isn't from a Nintendo or Sega source (or Tomba for the PS1).

Well, since Duke3D is the game most gamers talk about when they talk about Duke Nukem, I had to ask.

If discussing from the point of the 3D games: Yeah. There are problems...so many problems.
I'm only going to posit one problem: Level design.

A big part of why I like Duke3D is that the levels in themselves have some character. Some of the more obvious references and Easter eggs are squirreled away or are flat out built into the level subtly (Episode 4 begins with "It's Impossible". An entire level that's a throwback to spy-action movies like James Bond and Mission Impossible. But not all of the references are quite so obvious).

When they boiled DNF's levels down to the same linear dross we've seen time and time again, it eliminates that character and a lot of interactivity. Instead, they've replaced the character with more overt and blunt attempts at humor since there isn't any real "level" to explore anymore.
And they replaced the level interactivity with QTEs and canned events...just like every other shooter out there, including the ones its satirizing!

And it's not like this would cripple gameplay development if it will add to design space. Eliminating the hyper-linear elements and reintroducing SOME elements of exploration would work wonders for the gameplay, and force the designers to actually putting some thought into the level design.
Deus Ex: Human Revolution thrived on that sort of semi-branching for its more linear segments.

Feel free to bring up the side scrollers as well, its a series talk so its perfectly relevant.

There's a lot to be learned from the 2D realm of gaming because translation to 3D was a big issue back then, one the the Duke had no issue with and did rather well in fact.

 

[Smooth Operator]

There are just so many things gone wrong with DNF the only thing I can say is get a better dev, scrap everything DNF did and just go from Duke 3D.
Or maybe it would be appropriate for it to restart with a 2D sidescrolling shooter, to get the feel for making these games again, they can do all the jokes/parody/story/weapons/enemies but with a smaller tastier package and at a much lower cost, so if they fuck up it won't be a big deal.

And if it turns out great you got people excited for the franchize again leaving the door open for triple A redo.
But for the love of christ curbstomp any ************ that comes into that dev team with a CoD clone idea.

 

[xDarc]

In 1996, I was 14. I spent hundreds of hours at my computer with my nose in the BUILD editor, making maps that for the most part only I would ever play. The mechanics and features in shooters back then were very simplified and uninteresting for the most part back then. What was awesome though, and someone else touched on this, was the interactivity, mystery and themes the maps had.

There were lots of neat tricks you could do with the BUILD editor and I think that was the big draw for the game back then. This is back when everything was still based on sectors and you couldn't put them on top of one another. They'd have the illusion of this by using sprites to build walkways/bridges, or seemlessly teleporting you to another area of map to give the illusion that you were just on top of the previous area, etc.

Point is, back then, they made the most of the capabilities a proven method had at the time and used it to create a play ground. I kinda stopped playing DNF after about an hour or so because it just didn't feel like that. Maybe I'll give it another try in the future, but it wasn't Duke that made D3D great, it was the environments and DNF didn't have that going for it.

 

[Thedutchjelle]

In 1996, I was 14. I spent hundreds of hours at my computer with my nose in the BUILD editor, making maps that for the most part only I would ever play. The mechanics and features in shooters back then were very simplified and uninteresting for the most part back then. What was awesome though, and someone else touched on this, was the interactivity, mystery and themes the maps had.

There were lots of neat tricks you could do with the BUILD editor and I think that was the big draw for the game back then. This is back when everything was still based on sectors and you couldn't put them on top of one another. They'd have the illusion of this by using sprites to build walkways/bridges, or seemlessly teleporting you to another area of map to give the illusion that you were just on top of the previous area, etc.

Point is, back then, they made the most of the capabilities a proven method had at the time and used it to create a play ground. I kinda stopped playing DNF after about an hour or so because it just didn't feel like that. Maybe I'll give it another try in the future, but it wasn't Duke that made D3D great, it was the environments and DNF didn't have that going for it.

Ha! Another level builder, awesome. I almost never published my maps, but loved to build them for myself. It was a really nice and easily understandable play-tool : I was using it in elementary with almost no knowledge of English!

Loved the regular game too, the graphic style still appeals to me, as does the genius level design. Sadly I can't get over my fear of those slimer things so I never really played the game fully.

Although the game didn't take itself seriously, it didn't go over the top with it. It was not joke after another joke. I didn't play DNF, but from what I've heard it's not good.

 

[MammothBlade]

"Realistic" =/= fun.

If anything, Duke Nukem needs more over the top fun and no limit to the amount of weapons you can carry. That's part of why DNF was so shit. Just Call of Duty dressed as Duke Nukem.

 

[burningdragoon]

The only relatively specific improvements you mention are less parodies, no driving, realistic guns? Every other idea is basically "make it better" which is an obvious goal, but isn't really an interesting point to make.

 

[Klopy]

If Duke Nukem took some pointers from Painkiller and Serious Sam for the combat, Forever would have been amazing. But no. I was having fun with Forever until the underground lair scenes... There's a part I've died at a few times and I just lost interest, sadly.

 

[VulpesAqua]

I think the humor needs an overhaul. I rather liked Yahtzee's idea of noone taking Duke seriously. In fact I had an idea for Duke Nukem 5, it's probably shit but here goes nothing.

DNF ends to reveal it was a crappy movie. An older, beer bellied Duke watches it rather sadly. He's a has been, a joke. Replaced by a generic gritty action hero. But when aliens invade and the gritty hero is revealed to be a hack. Duke must leave the comfort of his rented mansion to try to save a world that doesn't appreciate him.

I'd plan for it to be generally dark humor poking a lot of fun at Duke himself as an aged relic who people remeber the earlier incarnations fondly. He'd be out of shape and out of touch with the modern world, as well as out of touch with modern game conventions (which would be satired) and tactics. It'd be a mainly old school style shooter ala Painkiller and Serious Sam, but with more dialog than those.

In short I want a good Duke Nukem game where Duke Nukem the character sucks

 

[daveman247]

I think the humor needs an overhaul. I rather liked Yahtzee's idea of noone taking Duke seriously. In fact I had an idea for Duke Nukem 5, it's probably shit but here goes nothing.

DNF ends to reveal it was a crappy movie. An older, beer bellied Duke watches it rather sadly. He's a has been, a joke. Replaced by a generic gritty action hero. But when aliens invade and the gritty hero is revealed to be a hack. Duke must leave the comfort of his rented mansion to try to save a world that doesn't appreciate him.

I'd plan for it to be generally dark humor poking a lot of fun at Duke himself as an aged relic who people remeber the earlier incarnations fondly. He'd be out of shape and out of touch with the modern world, as well as out of touch with modern game conventions (which would be satired) and tactics. It'd be a mainly old school style shooter ala Painkiller and Serious Sam, but with more dialog than those.

In short I want a good Duke Nukem game where Duke Nukem the character sucks

That is... quite a good idea actually. I think that could be quite funny, have everybody else think he is insane because of his over the top-ness and off colour jokes. Could be a great satire of what we liked back then compared to what we like now. "You idiots only carry two weapons? Fuck that! Hail to the kind baby!" - Duke Nukem then proceeds to carry 10 weapons .

 

[VulpesAqua]

I think the humor needs an overhaul. I rather liked Yahtzee's idea of noone taking Duke seriously. In fact I had an idea for Duke Nukem 5, it's probably shit but here goes nothing.

DNF ends to reveal it was a crappy movie. An older, beer bellied Duke watches it rather sadly. He's a has been, a joke. Replaced by a generic gritty action hero. But when aliens invade and the gritty hero is revealed to be a hack. Duke must leave the comfort of his rented mansion to try to save a world that doesn't appreciate him.

I'd plan for it to be generally dark humor poking a lot of fun at Duke himself as an aged relic who people remeber the earlier incarnations fondly. He'd be out of shape and out of touch with the modern world, as well as out of touch with modern game conventions (which would be satired) and tactics. It'd be a mainly old school style shooter ala Painkiller and Serious Sam, but with more dialog than those.

In short I want a good Duke Nukem game where Duke Nukem the character sucks

That is... quite a good idea actually. I think that could be quite funny, have everybody else think he is insane because of his over the top-ness and off colour jokes. Could be a great satire of what we liked back then compared to what we like now. "You idiots only carry two weapons? Fuck that! Hail to the kind baby!" - Duke Nukem then proceeds to carry 10 weapons .

Thanks, glad ya like it ^^

 

[pulse2]

I think the humor needs an overhaul. I rather liked Yahtzee's idea of noone taking Duke seriously. In fact I had an idea for Duke Nukem 5, it's probably shit but here goes nothing.

DNF ends to reveal it was a crappy movie. An older, beer bellied Duke watches it rather sadly. He's a has been, a joke. Replaced by a generic gritty action hero. But when aliens invade and the gritty hero is revealed to be a hack. Duke must leave the comfort of his rented mansion to try to save a world that doesn't appreciate him.

I'd plan for it to be generally dark humor poking a lot of fun at Duke himself as an aged relic who people remeber the earlier incarnations fondly. He'd be out of shape and out of touch with the modern world, as well as out of touch with modern game conventions (which would be satired) and tactics. It'd be a mainly old school style shooter ala Painkiller and Serious Sam, but with more dialog than those.

In short I want a good Duke Nukem game where Duke Nukem the character sucks

So in a sense go for what I thought Max Payne 3 was going to go for, less stereotypical bad ass hero with big muscles, more initially fat lazy slob with an opportunity to become a hero?

 

[jokr2thief]

The only way to improve this is to invent a time machine, go back to 14 years ago and put a motivational boot up someone's ass on the 3D Realms dev team to tell them to finish DNF and make it good and get it done fast... This way they don't kill the franchise with an awful game containing poor controls and retarded story, who's sole selling point is slapping titties growing out of a wall.

DNF killed this franchise for me, as it should have for you.

 

[VulpesAqua]

I think the humor needs an overhaul. I rather liked Yahtzee's idea of noone taking Duke seriously. In fact I had an idea for Duke Nukem 5, it's probably shit but here goes nothing.

DNF ends to reveal it was a crappy movie. An older, beer bellied Duke watches it rather sadly. He's a has been, a joke. Replaced by a generic gritty action hero. But when aliens invade and the gritty hero is revealed to be a hack. Duke must leave the comfort of his rented mansion to try to save a world that doesn't appreciate him.

I'd plan for it to be generally dark humor poking a lot of fun at Duke himself as an aged relic who people remeber the earlier incarnations fondly. He'd be out of shape and out of touch with the modern world, as well as out of touch with modern game conventions (which would be satired) and tactics. It'd be a mainly old school style shooter ala Painkiller and Serious Sam, but with more dialog than those.

In short I want a good Duke Nukem game where Duke Nukem the character sucks

So in a sense go for what I thought Max Payne 3 was going to go for, less stereotypical bad ass hero with big muscles, more initially fat lazy slob with an opportunity to become a hero?

Yes but done in a much more dark comedic tone rather than the straight depressive style of Man on Fire: The Game.....er...I mean Max Payne 3

 

[TorqueConverter]

This was #2 For those that missed out: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.358415-How-it-could-be-improved-2-Tomb-Raider-Series#14160009

Yup, I went there, and all in good reasoning too....the last one was a complete shambles :/ I waited how many years for THAT?? Seriously? Would have probably been less painful grating my fingers.

Regardless, Duke back in the day was awesome, I remember the first time I played it was on my uncle's PC while he was looking after us for a day, I loved it and kept visiting just to complete that game, it was the very first Duke Game and from that point on I wanted all Duke related games.

The third person ones were okay, not as great as the first person shooters but I loved Duke games so I didn't care, then word of Forever came out and I couldn't have been more excited.....until time passed and my excitement slowly slipped away. Would this game ever release? Apparently not because it became a game I'd never play and the Duke series slipped into my archives of "games I used to play" so ahoy, of course the final release of Forever how many years later had me jumping for joy and what a bloody disappointment it was

Graphics, load times, gameplay, multiplayer, all so horribly dated it made me want to cry. So what do I want? A complete graphical overhaul, less loading, less parodies and more focus on originality, the game had some interesting ideas but didn't do anything with them. Jokes were lame, so yes, some better wit please, gameplay wise....sigh, where do I start? Driving sections, please remove, guns, please make more realistic and fun to shoot, I like power in my weapons, yes, there's quite a bit that needs improving to make me love this series again.

But what do you think?

Fast paced FPS shooter is the vibe I get from the old Duke games and old FPS in general. We we lent the FPS genre to the game console to borrow for a while we got it back with all sorts of shit wrong with it. Duke Nukem Forever is one of those problems. If anything, Serious Sam 3 is modern game done in the old Duke fashion.

 

[McMarbles]

It already was. It was called "Matt Hazard". Nobody bought it.

 

[OldDirtyCrusty]

Hmm, i had more fun with DNF than the last COD games.
The levels could have been more polished and better looking (Las Vegas outdoors ugh). My biggest gripe would be the loooooong loading times. I didn`t mind the weapon restriction but having more would`ve been better. I liked the enemy models but i wanted more. Especially more pig cops.

DNF wasn`t so bad, it did a few things better than most high rated modern fps (bossfights with monsters and spaceships instead of just another plain helicopter/ nice oldschool mp/ good length). It felt oddly refreshing to me after moving from one ww2 to another ww2 fps and since cod 4 almost every shooter looks the same.
It just wasn`t good enough and after all these years nobody would have missed it.

One of the Crytek guys said they would like to give Duke Nukem a shot. I would love to see their take in terms of graphics and animation (Interview in an german printmagazine/ Question "Which franchise deserves a reboot?").

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

snip

That actually sounds pretty awesome. Throw in the awesome environments of Duke Nukem 3D, and I'd totally buy that.