How SW:TOR is a major step BACKWARDS for MMOs

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Dastardly

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Apr 19, 2010
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(For TL;DR, skip to the bolded section)

The foundation of "role playing" has been (and will always be) taking ownership of a tiny piece of a virual world--whether it was on paper, tabletop, or a computer screen. The developer/GM/etc presents you a world, usually built on a familiar IP, and you create a character that will be your eyes and hands in this world. Already, you OWN a piece of the game world, as your "you" is now a part of it.

MMORPGs were the logical outgrowth of roleplaying + technology. They allowed the characters you created to step into a much larger and more populated world. The particularly good games even allowed you to leave a footprint in that virtual world (in the form of player housing). For all intents and purposes, your character, your house, your "class" or "profession," were all about YOUR choices and YOUR story.

Single-player RPGs evolved (or de-volved) long ago into more of a character "rental" than creation. Your job is to take an extant character through a strictly laid-out story. It's much more playing with action figures than being an action hero. You don't really own anything in the story.

So, single-player RPGs were a combination of early roleplaying ideas (improving your character over time, specialization of characters, etc) and standard single-player action games. I'd argue, in fact, that that's what they are--action games, no more "roleplaying" than Mario.

MMOs were, in a sense, the opposite. They took elements of video games (graphical avatars, internet connectivity, etc) and combined them with the best elements of tabletop games: character creation, self-determination, and freedom. The game had a framework in which to operate, but it also presented you the tools to make your OWN story.

Enter BioWare.

At first, everyone was so excited about SW:TOR partly because they heard so many of the original SWG Devs had moved to the project (SWG being a landmark MMO, pre-NGE, in terms of the freedom to create your own character and story, no matter how heroic OR mundane you preferred him/her to be). But as more and more info is released, TOR is revealing itself to be the exact OPPOSITE in spirit of what made SWG great in its day.

(By the by, SWG is still great for all the same old reasons. The class system is limiting, yes, but there is still a lot to do in-game besides killgrindkill. Housing, intense crafting, beast mastery, etc.)

First and foremost, TOR is going with the same old class system as every other game. It boils down to DPS, tank, healer, support. Just with Star Wars flavoring. And within each class, two separate (talent) trees. Nothing new there. And that's where the bad news gets worse. As more details come to light, we have learned the following "features" are little more than roadblocks to the freedom MMOs once promised:

1) "The game will be story-driven, and your choices will affect your destiny!" - Great, so that means each situation will boil down to one of three choices (aggressive, defensive, or passive, basically). You can either be a dick, a saint, or a gray blob in the middle. But what's more, it means your character is not YOUR character. It is one of a select handful of pre-made characters that you will rent. And when in these games has it ever really been the BEST idea to "mix and match," rather than go all one way or the other? SACRIFICES CHARACTER FREEDOM.

2) "The game will be fully voice-acted." - So you can't even decide what your character says or how he/she says it. The game will be giving you a script and voice. And, due to the expense of such projects, expect the selection of voices (if there are any) to be extremely limited. It might be that your character gets no voice at all (silent protagonist syndrome) which, to me, is better than being forced into a pre-made voice. SACRIFICES CHARACTER FREEDOM.

3) "You can choose from one of these iconic professions!" - So all smugglers will be expected to behave in X way with personality Y, because that's how Han did it. All Bounty Hunters will be X, Y, and Z, because that's how Fett did it. This is exactly what the NGE did to RUIN SWG. SACRIFICES CHARACTER FREEDOM.

4) "You'll get companion characters to will add spice and variety to your gameplay!" - This one actually sounded GREAT... until we found out that EVERYONE gets the same companion based on his/her class. Yes, ALL smugglers will not just have A wookiee companion (like Han!), they'll have the SAME wookiee companion. You don't even get to pick the name. SACRIFICES CHARACTER FREEDOM.

5) "You'll get your own ship, which you can use to travel or complete missions!" - Again, sounded great... until we found out that you get the same ship as everyone else in your class AND that all space missions play out like Starfox as rail- or arena-style episodes. You can't choose your ship, and you can't choose where it goes. SACRIFICES CHARACTER FREEDOM.

Any ONE of these could put a game on shaky ground... but to do all of them at once? This puts SW:TOR firmly in the realm of an action/adventure game that happens to have online co-op. It's not an MMORPG. It's just a big single-player rent-a-character game for which they'll be expected a subscription fee. BioWare has a lot of strengths. It is unfortunately bringing all of the wrong strengths to this MMO.


(A bit more on what made SWG great, for a Star Wars-oriented comparison):

a) Skill choices, instead of hard classes. You could be a cook AND a bounty hunter, if you wanted. You could be a smuggler AND a medic. You could double up on combat or on crafting if you chose. You decided what you wanted your character to be able to do, and you BUILT a class around it.

b) The sheer variety of non-combat activities. Crafting (including a bajillion types), Entertaining (dancing, music, AND image designing), Housing (decorating structures, constructing player cities), Player-driven economy (if it existed, someone somewhere made it). You could play for years, really and truly playing, and never pick up a blaster.

c) Even combat had a ton of variety. Pistols, rifles, carbines, big melee weapons, small melee weapons, no melee weapons, stealth, traps, etc.

d) You didn't have to be the "hero of the galaxy." You could just be a dude living in the Star Wars universe. You could if you wanted... or you could become an economic powerhouse... or just that guy with a really, really cool house. You decided how "epic" your character was.
 

Mechsoap

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at least to give it a chance before calling it out on being the anti-christ
 

MetallicaRulez0

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It seems you value your character and freedom with that character most in RPGs. I personally value the stats and min/max features of my RPGs, especially MMOs. Honestly couldn't care less if my character has a voice, or if his "role playing choices" are limited. Give me lots of talent and customization options for combat, professions, that sort of thing and I'm a happy camper.
 

Buizel91

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Mechsoap said:
at least to give it a chance before calling it out on being the anti-christ
This^,

If anything it is sticking to Kotor Formula... (Light, Dark, Neutral. Pick Character A, B or C etc.) Its just been put into MMO form, sure it may not work for most, but anyone who has played Kotor will feel right at home.

And the reason we can't name our characters is because it's full voiced, if we could it would be stupid "Wookie fire the cannons" to "Zalbaar (Example) Fire the cannons"...tell me, which sounds better? considering your character will be best friends (presumably) with your companion.
 

Dastardly

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Apr 19, 2010
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Mechsoap said:
at least to give it a chance before calling it out on being the anti-christ
Step in the wrong direction, albeit huge. Not the anti-christ. The problem is that everyone is hailing it as the Messiah, so calling it any less SEEMS like calling it the anti-christ.
 

RyQ_TMC

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I can't really see how (1) is a step backwards. OK then, you will have those three archetypal choices. Sounds horrible, until you realize that in most story-driven games (including MMOs) you have no choice beyond "follow the story/faff about for a bit and then come back to follow the story".

Not sure about 2, but 3, 4 and 5 really sound more like unrealistic promises than actual "steps back". Sounds to me like you heard about the ship, thought "oh gee, I'll be able to travel the space in a cool starship!" - and then it turned out it will have limitations. Cue disappointment on your part.

So in short, it's not a "step back". It's just gonna be like all other MMOs. Well, except maybe Ultima Online. That's a game to play if you want as much character freedom as you want.
 

Cowabungaa

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Mechsoap said:
at least to give it a chance before calling it out on being the anti-christ
I wouldn't say he does that, I think he makes a valid point, even though it might sound a bit aggressive.

By the looks of it, SW:TOR does indeed try to be more of a single-player KotOR-like adventure, that you happen to be playing with more people at once, rather than what you expect of an MMO.

To me that doesn't necessarily mean it won't be awesome, but I can see where Mister OP is coming from; it doesn't seem to feel like a Massive Multiplayer game, there seems to be so much focus on trying to make this feel like a single-player adventure.

And by the sound of it, the old SWG does seem to be a lot closer to the Star Wars game of my dreams, a lot more open, really being able to be your own part in the Star Wars universe. Why oh why couldn't I play that in it's heydays.
 

Krion_Vark

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dastardly said:
Wait so being fully voiced is a step backwards? You ever play Knights of the Old Republic? That was FULLY voiced except for 1 character YOURS.

The companion is actually just there if you decide to do the ENTIRE game solo you don't actually need to take him out of the ship EVER.

Why is using iconic classes a bad thing? How is that a step backwards? So what happens if they decided to throw in some random ass class like school teacher. Oh hey I am going to run around the Star Wars Universe as a teacher wait they were never mentioned so why the fuck are they a playable class?

The Ships weren't part of the original design of the game so they decided to do an on the rails style and give you random on the rails fighting missions. GUESS WHAT THOSE ARE OPTIONAL!!!

Now I pose to you these questions:
Have you played the Beta? Have you seen anything besides the random news that pops up?
Have you seen any number of countless videos that destroy your point about the companions all being the same?
 

Thaius

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Your point is not invalid, but I have to say, I'm tired of people proclaiming that complete player freedom and character customization is the one and only way that something counts as an RPG. It's a narrow viewpoint that really exists only to promote the Western RPG over the Japanese RPG. Both character customization and freedom as well as battle customization and freedom are RPG elements, and considering it is absolutely impossible for video games to fully emulate the tabletop RPGs on which they are based, it's extremely stupid to say that only one element is the "true spirit" of the RPG.

It may not fall into one little definition that some people have for what an MMO should be, or what said people think role-playing should be, but that hardly means it's objectively a step backward for MMOs. It simply means it's a different style than you like. RPGs are a genre full of variety: stop claiming the kinds you don't like are inherently less "RPG-like."
 

Delock

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Really, none of that sounds backwards for MMO's (speaking as someone who beat CoV, played through most of CoH, Went through all three Guild Wars and the expansion, tried WoW, began out on RuneScape, and has played a few minor ones here and there).
As for the SACRIFICES CHARACTER FREEDOM bits, mostly they seem to be about how you're not able to customize every single bit of the game, which is something I don't want to have to do in the first place in an MMO. I'm jumping into a world already inhabited by players, NPCs, and enemies with its own set of rules. The only problem I might have is the voice acting as you are right that it can characterize you avatar, but if they give us multiple voices to choose from, I'll be ok. Look, I know it sounds a bit like this is more of a character you're being handed, but Bioware has a had a good track record with players being given avatars that are made to resemble characters just enough (for the difference here: a character is most often seen in the third person. This is the end result for most avatars after you finish building them both in game and in your mind. Avatars however are blank slates, which is you seeing through their eyes. All of their thoughts are your own, and they serve only to connect you to the world you're in. Your actions, feelings, and thoughts about everything in game eventually shape this into a character when you exit the avatar, be it due to the game or just because you finally took a step back and examined it).

So far, nothing I've seen has been a horrible downgrade for the genre, and it still seems to be within the genre itself. However, I, as you should, will make my final decision WHEN THE GAME IS ACTUALLY RELEASED RATHER THAN JUDGING ITS CONCEPTS. If you do otherwise, than Team Ico games are crap as they have barely any plot told and are a giant escort quest and an action game with only 16 monsters total with way too much time between them (and anyone who's played them will tell you that while this is true, that doesn't ruin it at all).
 

DarkLordofDevon

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SW:TOR's difference from other MMOs is the reason I might actually play it. What I hate about other MMOs is the endless grind. At least with SW:TOR I might feel like the grind actually MEANS something rather than just *kill monster 300,000,000 times*
Voice acting might bring it down a little, but eh - nothing's perfect. I'm going to give it a good try anyway.
 

Durxom

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Cowabungaa said:
Mechsoap said:
at least to give it a chance before calling it out on being the anti-christ
I wouldn't say he does that, I think he makes a valid point, even though it might sound a bit aggressive.

By the looks of it, SW:TOR does indeed try to be more of a single-player KotOR-like adventure, that you happen to be playing with more people at once, rather than what you expect of an MMO.

To me that doesn't necessarily mean it won't be awesome, but I can see where Mister OP is coming from; it doesn't seem to feel like a Massive Multiplayer game, there seems to be so much focus on trying to make this feel like a single-player adventure.

And by the sound of it, the old SWG does seem to be a lot closer to the Star Wars game of my dreams, a lot more open, really being able to be your own part in the Star Wars universe. Why oh why couldn't I play that in it's heydays.
I see what both of you are saying here. It sounds like they are making game for people who want to play an MMO, but don't want to play an MMO(ie. play a game with lots of people but not have to play with anyone).

I still dunno if I'm going to pick this up or not when it comes out.

And also apparently you can still play SWG in its old versions, in some umm..*cough*special ways *cough* private servers *cough*...
 

alrekr

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arc1991 said:
Mechsoap said:
at least to give it a chance before calling it out on being the anti-christ
This^,

If anything it is sticking to Kotor Formula... (Light, Dark, Neutral. Pick Character A, B or C etc.) Its just been put into MMO form, sure it may not work for most, but anyone who has played Kotor will feel right at home.

And the reason we can't name our characters is because it's full voiced, if we could it would be stupid "Wookie fire the cannons" to "Zalbaar (Example) Fire the cannons"...tell me, which sounds better? considering your character will be best friends (presumably) with your companion.
it would so much better if they just used microsoft sam's voice to say whatever you named your charecter.
 

Blind Sight

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My God, I get it that you might be a little annoyed with what you've seen of the Old Republic, and it's fine for you be prepared to be disappointed (lord knows I already complained about the Videodrome remake enough on this forum) but you know, you should actually PLAY the game before you pass complete judgement on it. Doing so before you've played it, based off of released information just makes you look somewhat uninformed and whiny. Once again, the Big Lebowski's "Well, that's just your opinion, man" applies.
 

WittyInfidel

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Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a big Star Wars fanboy. Just look to my profile pic.

I'm still giving a wide berth to the MMO. It's like the OP wrote. It's going to be much like a co-op KotOR that I have to pay a monthly rental fee for.

No thank you. I already own KotOR. I don't feel a need to pay $15 a month to play it again with a bunch of people I couldn't stand to be around in real life.
 

Charli

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I'll agree I don't think it's going to bomb the earth in a destructive crater of MMO greatness but let it release first. I love starwars, I love MMO's but somehow seeing the two combined puts me off.

And that's just me personally. I Like to play fantasy in MMO's. No so much Sci-fi.
Sci-Fi has enough stuff that you have to make sense of that makes acceptable to sit and watch it play out.

But Fantasy to me has this 'Who gives a shit I'm killin a dragon Yeehaw!' element to it. That has always tugged me to want to get in there and play the role.

I guess I just want to be a Holy Knight more than a Jedi. *shrug*
 

L4hlborg

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I don't enjoy MMOs. I do enjoy singleplayer RPGs, because of story, characters and choice (choice can be limited for characters and story). The fact that I'm actually interested in TOR means that it's either a step forward, getting other people than MMO people interested. Or it's a step back, if MMO people don't like it at all. Depends on the point of view.
 

Booze Zombie

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Mechsoap said:
at least to give it a chance before calling it out on being the anti-christ
Why?! I always have a point to make and BAM, someone else is there! Mother f-!
 

Blind Sight

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Charli said:
I'll agree I don't think it's going to bomb the earth in a destructive crater of MMO greatness but let it release first. I love starwars, I love MMO's but somehow seeing the two combined puts me off.

And that's just me personally. I Like to play fantasy in MMO's. No so much Sci-fi.
Sci-Fi has enough stuff that you have to make sense of that makes acceptable to sit and watch it play out.

But Fantasy to me has this 'Who gives a shit I'm killin a dragon Yeehaw!' element to it. That has always tugged me to want to get in there and play the role.

I guess I just want to be a Holy Knight more than a Jedi. *shrug*
Star Wars, however, isn't science fiction, it's science fantasy, because it doesn't even attempt to use solid science to explain anything. How did Luke did from planet to planet in a single X-Wing? Who cares, it's science fantasy! How come lightsaber beams stop after a certain point? Science fantasy! Star Wars usually has more in common with fantasy, samurai films and Westerns then it does actual scifi.