How SW:TOR is a major step BACKWARDS for MMOs

[Polaris19]

I won't go into the number of ways this is wrong but all I'll say is about half your points either are not entirley correct, or they are misleading. The one about the story is one in particular you need to read up on a lot more.

It's a different approach, and before you write it off as a "step backwards" lets wait and see what it's like when it comes out. Then we'll see.

 

[Starke]

such are my thoughts.

I hope I didn't shit on them.

You didn't until that last comment. I fail to see what the problem is with Escapist users and common courtasy nowadays. For the last few weeks it's just gotten ridiculous. Not you paticularly, in general.

Yeah, I've done a lot less posting lately in large part because of that. I've always been someplace between a bit acerbic and an unrepentant bastard in my posting habits, but lately (it seems) I'm actually one of the better behaved posters on here. Which, quite frankly, scares the shit out of me.

At any rate, despite that I think you both greatly overestimate what technology is capable of, and also that every sandbox has borders, how broad we can make those borders is limited by what we actually have.

That's actually quite possible.

I kinda think that if you break procedural chunks down into small enough pieces you can give a quest/mission/errand/escaped lunatic the illusion of truly procedural system. I'd explain but I'm still too fucked up to make it coherent.

In an MMO, those quest lines including the NPCs and animations and such that go along with them, especially involved ones like the whole "Wrath Gate" quest line in WoW, or the recent failed attempt to retake Gnomeregan quest line involve a lot of scripting, art elements, and other things that require a human component to create, test, and run. The ability of a game to develop things on that level, even for a few thousand players, spontaneously and without duplication is well beyond what our technology can do. That will probably not always be the case, but it is now.

Yeah, on that you're completely right. What we can't do is emulate that wholesale right now. Particularly not set pieces like that. And not within current tech structures. For more mundane content? That might be more feasible.

You arrive at area X, which is being attacked by monster type Y.
->Y has kidnapped Z -> You must now get them back.
->Y has stolen A -> You must now retrieve it.
->Y has been doing this for B months. -> You must put a stop to this, either by reinforcing area X or by locating area C and eliminating all the Ys you find there.

What's more is you can stack these up a couple layers deep, to make it really unpredictable. But, if the system is designed around this branching system it becomes certainly possible and implementable.

As far as Star Trek Online goes, the game is not "a bit skeletal" it's a complete mess. I played the game in beta, and returned a few months after launch to see how it was shaping up. The problem being that they tried to do two diverse things within a single MMO with only the budget to do one of them well. It sort of demonstrates how you need to develop what amounts to two separate MMOs to achieve that effect.

I was referring to the base mechanics. The game does have other issues beyond that. Not the least of which was an eighteen month dev cycle.

Now, I suppose Old Republic could in theory have done that, but it's already one of the most expensive game projects ever undertaken, and needless to say the largest in Bioware's history.

Sorry, I usually hate "fixed" posting, but if the numbers we're hearing are accurate your statement should be in the definite.

Time, money, and resources are an issue, as is what the market is going to be willing to pay.

At the risk of tearing your post into bite sized chunks...

This is actually very specifically what worries me about TOR. There is an inordinate amount of money going in on the back end.

Like it or not, I do not think many people would pay two or three times the current going rate for access to an MMORPG either, and that's what it would take to justify the even larger budget needed for development. You might pay it, but as it is now there are people who blanch at paying $15 a month. While not a whole lot of money, $15 is still a noticeable cost, especially with a bad economy (which believe it or not, does influence how much people are going to throw into projects, and how liable they are to take risks).

And also influences game buying decisions.

Unfortunately in MMOs playing follow the leader does not seem to work at all.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

To be fair to you, Bioware as an entity isn't really the subject of my ire. The writers at Bioware and their publicity people get on my nerves as do fanboys who parrot off the publicists positions.

Every time someone posts blurbling platitudes about how Bioware is the best video game developer since sliced bread I want to vomit.

I suggest Dramamine.

 

[Zhukov]

In summary: "waaaahhh!"

Basically, there is a difference between "step backwards" and "step in a direction you don't care for". Some people do not want the same things that you want.

You seem to be disappointed that SW:TOR is not going to be something that it never had any intention of being. It's as if I were disappointed that Duke Nukem is not going to be a serious and complex work of story-driven science fiction.

 

[Irridium]

I agree. Kind of.

I am worried, as the gameplay looks very WoW-like. This is what I DON'T want. WoW's combat bores me. And considering Bioware's hyping it up to be "visceral" and "intense" it just looks very dull. People will play it, then give up and go back to WoW.

If you want to attract the WoW audience, give them gameplay that isn't like WoW. Because if it is, they'll just say "fuck it" and go back to WoW, because why would you go to another MMO if it plays the same and all your friends are on the other.

Thats another thing, how its being hyped as a WoW-killer. Thats bad, thats something you really don't want to do. And if you do, you need to make your MMO not like WoW.

However, despite all this, I just can't let a game thats basically eight KOTOR's pass me up.

 

[Direwolf750]

As much as it matters to make a point validly, it does NOT mean that it should be long winded. The topic was absurdly long by any standards beyond that of a small paper on the subject. Please make your point more concisely because I found it a bit hard to read because of it's length. Not from stupidity or laziness, it was just too long.

Now from what I understood of it, I think that the KotOR style of decision making is flawed in that you only have so many choices, but you can only do so much in a game. Inherently, you can't include all the options that COULD be, and make them work. It's difficult managing for different serarios in a linear storyline, let alone one that would be non-linear.

What everything really comes down to is: is it really cost efficient? Is it cost efficient to include an economic option into a game that is being marketed as a fast paced adventure game? Is it a good use of your coders, and the money that you pay them to make it work, incorporate it into the game, the animators, the voice actors? Will it really have that much of a difference on the value of the game to be able to go around making bantha burgers for the Twi'leks, when it isn't the point of the game?

Yes it would be nice to be able to do these things if you REALLY wanted to, but the problem is that most people, in fact DON'T want to. As such, it would be a waste of time for game companies to do it. If you really are that interested in something such as that, explore the modding communities of Elder Scrolls games. I bet that if you posted it, someone could make you a mod where you have a 9 to 5 job cooking food for the guards or gardening for the nobility, and be able to make the entire game about that. They could make a big business mod, because it is their own work, they don't have anything to lose if their mod isn't good, and they can keep releasing it until it is.

Now that my response has gotten a bit too long for my tastes, I shall end it here.

 

[Alucard832]

Sounds like complaining for the sake of it. "Character Freedom" is obviously way too important to you. Not everyone wants to play the same MMO as you, so don't try and convince other people it's bad just b/c you have some finicky complaints (before even playing it to that extent).

 

[pretentiousname01]

Clearly you are unaware of ffxiv.

 

[TK421]

I don't know that I completely agree with what you are saying, but I like the new perspective you put on "game praise." Also, I found your argument convincing.

 

[Tiss]

OP, a RPG is a Role-Playing game as in you thrust into the roll of a character (Acting). You most
certainly role play in Mario games as in your role is to be mario and do what he would, whether you think
it or not that is the role you are playing. Some of your complaints are less about ROLE PLAYING IE
PLAYING A ROLE and more about features you think will hurt the game role playing isnt about character freedom it is you doing what your character would do and I think we should feel lucky they are including these features and if they urk you so much then you shouldnt buy the game.

 

[Danny Ocean]

Settle down, I found it hilarious. Most TLDR sections are literally a sentence. That's the point of a TLDR section. I found it quite ironic is all. Also I got probation for that post so feel vindicated or justice has been served haha.

Oh hehehe. Sorry. I geddit. I've been called out on a lot of my posts from last night. Guess my head wasn't on straight.

 

[Starke]

Settle down, I found it hilarious. Most TLDR sections are literally a sentence. That's the point of a TLDR section. I found it quite ironic is all. Also I got probation for that post so feel vindicated or justice has been served haha.

Funny thing. Being able to boil a page of text down to a sentence is a really valuable skill in academia and (real world) law.

 

[Danny Ocean]

Settle down, I found it hilarious. Most TLDR sections are literally a sentence. That's the point of a TLDR section. I found it quite ironic is all. Also I got probation for that post so feel vindicated or justice has been served haha.

Funny thing. Being able to boil a page of text down to a sentence is a really valuable skill in academia and (real world) law.

The annoying thing is that right now, at A-level education, I habitually do things like that and it loses me a lot of marks. IT's a massive pain in the ass. =(

 

[Starke]

Settle down, I found it hilarious. Most TLDR sections are literally a sentence. That's the point of a TLDR section. I found it quite ironic is all. Also I got probation for that post so feel vindicated or justice has been served haha.

Funny thing. Being able to boil a page of text down to a sentence is a really valuable skill in academia and (real world) law.

The annoying thing is that right now, at A-level education, I habitually do things like that and it loses me a lot of marks. IT's a massive pain in the ass. =(

Well, keep the skill around, because it will serve you very well later in life. Just not until after you're out of (whatever the equivalent for) high-school (is).

 

[gamer_parent]

Player Choice does not mean absolute freedom to do anything you want. A platform that tries to emulate that kind of freedom is doomed to fail because such an effort would have this thing be in development until the end of time. Or in a more realistic scenario, fail doing any of it well because the resources for development will dry out.

Limiting your options, sometimes, is EXACTLY what meaningful player choice needs to be. Otherwise, if you have free reign to do whatever you want, then why play one class over another? Substantive differences are precisely what makes these games interesting.

Now, having said that, I'm really not sure if what you're listing is really going to be true. Having everyone sound the same with the same cohort that mimics the movie doesn't really sound like something the devs of SWG would ever do.

 

[DTWolfwood]

Meh game looks generic anyways.

Looking forward to some TERA.

This strikes me as very, very ironic.

Good job making irony through lack of context \o/ aren't we clever.

TERA [http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=9394]

When someone who hates MMOs turns out enjoying one, I do believe that is as none generic as it gets in this world of WoW clones.

 

[DTWolfwood]

Meh game looks generic anyways. If its gonna look generic it better have some form of gameplay thats new not just voice acting <.<

Looking forward to some TERA. a true hack'n'slash beat'em up in MMO form. wooo XD

My biggest complain about TERA is that it's a typical korean MMO to the core. Grind for sake of grind and plenty of RNG (Random Number Generator) in case of upgrading your equipment. With western MMOs you at least usually know what you are standing at, in Asian it goes like this:
You have to farm plenty random items to upgrade from +0 to +5, each upgrade has chance of failure and chance of destroying your previous upgrades and/or the item you try to upgrade, the higher the upgrade the bigger the chance everything will be destroyed.
It's not fun, it's not enjoyment, it's just reason to get you grind more so you don't have to worry about actual content the game provides.

first question. Have u played it?
If you say yes, hey man lemme know how to get in on that action! XD

Yes it looks like your typical Korean style MMO. But a free form hack'n slash mechanic makes mob grinding all the more interesting. If for nothing else this game is trying something new in terms of Gameplay in an MMO.

Im just tired of the "Click Target, cast Spell, wait for cooldown, rinse and repeat" mechanic that is in every MMOPRPG. Which explains y my fav MMOs are EVE and Pirates of the Burning Sea and Planetside. (all of of which i didnt play too long, EVE being the longest at 1.5 years) They are all fundamentally different in their style of play.

That is above all else the ONLY reason i look forward to TERA. Plus i cant lie, i do love the anime styling The avatars in western mmos all look terrible. case in point SW:TOR their character models are cartoony at best.

 

[Keava]

snip

*cough* Eve is about click a target, select a spell (weapon type) wait for cooldowns.*cough*

And yeah, i played it briefly on one of the gaming conventions. It's not really that much of action hack and slash like say DMC or God Of War. You still have action bar with skills, the difference is that instead of target-lock/sticky targetting you have to be facing the mobs and have them in your aiming reticle or else you just execute your attacks into thin air and end up in different zone. In a way it's very similar to AoC melee combo system, just much faster paced.

Spoiler: Here's a good vid that shows how it actually looks from healer POV

 

[Meggiepants]

If all of these things are true - I don't know that much detail about the game other than it's being made and it is supposed to be story based - it seems insanely odd they decided to make it an MMO.

It is starting to sound as if this game is leaning more toward the RPG end of the gaming spectrum than the MMO end. Not that I think that is a bad thing myself. But if that does turn out to be the case, it will have some problems. I wouldn't pay a monthly fee to play an RPG. Course, that isn't saying much, because I wouldn't pay a monthly fee to play an MMO either.

 

[DTWolfwood]

snip

*cough* Eve is about click a target, select a spell (weapon type) wait for cooldowns.*cough*

And yeah, i played it briefly on one of the gaming conventions. It's not really that much of action hack and slash like say DMC or God Of War. You still have action bar with skills, the difference is that instead of target-lock/sticky targetting you have to be facing the mobs and have them in your aiming reticle or else you just execute your attacks into thin air and end up in different zone. In a way it's very similar to AoC melee combo system, just much faster paced.

Spoiler: Here's a good vid that shows how it actually looks from healer POV

Good to know cause that is pretty much what i looking for in an MMO, faster pace!

I was a -10.00 Low sec Pirate. I made a living off of ransoming people and their pods at warpgates with Sentry guns blasting me. The ALWAYS ON PVP and completely player made economy was fundamentally new to me in terms of an MMO. Not to mention the only game i know where the difference between life and death was transverse velocity.

Buts yes if all you did was kill rats and mining ore, i can see how its the same. XD

p.s. cant watch the vid due to shit bandwidth at work, Does the healer have the lock on ability or does he have to Aim too? Cause that would be exciting XD