How was Dragon Age a dark Fantasy?
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Actually, it has. It is a genre that combines horror with the usual fantasy elements. Dragon Age qualifies to an extent as it has plenty of elements that could count as horror (possession is common, Broodmothers, horrible creatures, etc) but the game never really confronts these things as horror elements. So, while it has elements that might qualify, taken as a whole DA:O is not dark fantasy in the slightest because everything that might be dark has a solution in the form of "Stab them until they die" or any number of other fantasy solutions to problems. Moreover, the horror inherent in the game is so incredibly common that, even in the context of the game world, it ceases to be horrifying.SnakeCL said:
Haven't played the game, but that's what I was thinking. The Dark Tower is dark fantasy, and so is most of HP Lovecraft's Dream Cycle (with the rest of it being straight up horror.) Just because something has mature themes or a dark attitude to it doesn't make it dark fantasy; otherwise, pretty much every high fantasy series to be released in the last two decades would be dark fantasy, not to mention just about every sword and sorcery story ever written.Blood Countess said:
Darkm00 said:
To both of you: What you're thinking of is low fantasy or Sword and Sorcery, not dark fantasy. Dark fantasy is something that mixes elements of horror and fantasy, like Stephen King's Dark Tower series, or most of HP Lovecraft's better works. Low fantasy/Sword and Sorcery is stuff like Conan the Barbarian, Sword of the Berserk, and the average D&D campaign as run by roll-players, who are not to be confused with role-players.Scars Unseen said:
It definitely wasn't dark fantasy, and I'm not sure why they billed it as such. DA2 is a little closer to the low fantasy style they suggested in Origins, and certainly the darkest game they've made, but still not 'dark fantasy'.
Although, I'm not completely sure what that subgenre really is.
EDIT: Oh, fantasy/horror hybrid. Some parts of the game, and certainly moreso than their other games, but I still don't see it.
EDIT EDIT: Actually, abominations/demons/the Fade. That kind of fits.
That hasn't been much of a problem in BioWare's games (BG knew how to pace that stuff) but in some games it's actually pretty jarring when a fantasy game decides to bring in things that simply don't belong in that universe.
[sub]There's some technical difficulty in designing that many monsters in modern graphics too.[/sub]
Although, I'm not completely sure what that subgenre really is.
EDIT: Oh, fantasy/horror hybrid. Some parts of the game, and certainly moreso than their other games, but I still don't see it.
EDIT EDIT: Actually, abominations/demons/the Fade. That kind of fits.
I miss Faerûn as much as the next guy, but I think it's a noble effort to design more original creatures or have more region-specific creatures as opposed to taking C. S. Lewis's shitty 'kitchen sink' approach and dumping random mythological creatures into every context.bussinrounds said:
That hasn't been much of a problem in BioWare's games (BG knew how to pace that stuff) but in some games it's actually pretty jarring when a fantasy game decides to bring in things that simply don't belong in that universe.
[sub]There's some technical difficulty in designing that many monsters in modern graphics too.[/sub]
I define "Dark Fantasy" as something with more grit than shine. Lord of the Rings and their ilk repels me, while Dragon Age and Song of Ice and Fire is on the right track. Still not as much down the right road as the series written by Joe Abercrombie, but definitely packed with the right amount of grit.Vern5 said:
What I'm thinking is that you are missing out on a-lot of the background noise that makes up the lore of the game (by not paying attention to the dialogue or not reading the codex entries). You failed to mentioned the whole deal with the Gray Wardens, or what happens to women who get captured by the Darkspawn. Both very obvious "dark" scenes.
You failed to mentioned the wars that ravaged the lands. You failed to mention how the dwarves live in constant battle with the Dark Spawn, or the existence of their "Legion of the Dead". You failed to mention the army built by the dwarves to battle the first Blight, of how all these golems were brought into existence.
You also didn't consider the elves; their plight as downtrodden race at the whim of the humans (play the city elf Origin). You failed to mention the slavers. And, what fascinates me most, the mages. Now it could be alot worse for them, though as it is being a mage is not a gift, but at the same time a curse. I imagine that the dealings within a Circle are alot less "rosy" than one might be led to believe when only looking upon the Fereldren circle. The Circle in Kirkwall, for example, is alot more in line with what I believe is going on behind closed doors.
.. anyway.
If one disregards the world, then yes. Dragon Age is anything but dark. But if you stop and think, and bother to pay attention, then it has alot more grit on it than what you brought up.
Wikipedia disagrees... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_fantasyEclectic Dreck said:
Dark does not necessarily mean "there is no solution". Furthermore, its not mutually exclusive like High and Low fantasy are.
I'd say the WORLD of DA is Dark Fantasy, the game isn't, because, well, gameplay. Lots of stuff in the original game just didn't have the opportunity to be explored in the depth that would really have lent that flavour to it.
The elves - Frantically clinging to the tatters of a lost legacy, forced to wander the wilds, abandoned by their gods, or living as third-class citizens in the slums of human cities.
The Chantry - Abandoned by their God, flat out admitting that their prayers are little more than platitudes and all they can hope for is a slightly less shitty afterlife than the heathens.
Mages - Pursued by demons, ostracised by society, and treated as perverse and criminal from birth.
Ferelden - Ruled by an impotent king at the suffering of feuding nobles.
Lyrium - This deserves its own spot because of what BioWare originally planned to do with it. Lyrium is mind-altering, addictive, toxic, caustic, and completely necessary to the continued existance of both Mage and Templar. Lyrium addiction was originally supposed to be just as damaging as the Taint, with an addiction mechanic severely penalizing mages and templars who did not keep taking it regularly.
Darkspawn - A living plague which corrupts everything it contacts, even the awakened disciples are doomed to live apart from other races for fear of spreading their sickness. Those who do not die immediately become violent, necrophagic savages.
Broodmothers - 'nuff said.
Dragons/Old Gods - Beautiful, wise, powerful, and completely without conscience or remorse, glutting their hunger for months in preperation for clutching of instantly mindless and ravenous young.
The Fade - Even your dreams can kill you.
Andraste - The messiah who failed.
Funeral practices - Bodies are burned ostensibly in memory of Andraste... The real reason is so that demons can't posess your family's corpse...
Grey Wardens - The best, brightest, and most talented in the lands... Doomed to a life of nightmare and encroaching madness, endlessly drawn towards certain death in the deep roads, all for the questionable benefit of a temporary immunity to infection. Face it, Wardens are the corpse-cart carriers of DA.
Dwarves - Born into a life of neverending, hopeless war.
Not a thing of real light or beauty in the entire mythos, is there? Even the griffons are extinct.
The elves - Frantically clinging to the tatters of a lost legacy, forced to wander the wilds, abandoned by their gods, or living as third-class citizens in the slums of human cities.
The Chantry - Abandoned by their God, flat out admitting that their prayers are little more than platitudes and all they can hope for is a slightly less shitty afterlife than the heathens.
Mages - Pursued by demons, ostracised by society, and treated as perverse and criminal from birth.
Ferelden - Ruled by an impotent king at the suffering of feuding nobles.
Lyrium - This deserves its own spot because of what BioWare originally planned to do with it. Lyrium is mind-altering, addictive, toxic, caustic, and completely necessary to the continued existance of both Mage and Templar. Lyrium addiction was originally supposed to be just as damaging as the Taint, with an addiction mechanic severely penalizing mages and templars who did not keep taking it regularly.
Darkspawn - A living plague which corrupts everything it contacts, even the awakened disciples are doomed to live apart from other races for fear of spreading their sickness. Those who do not die immediately become violent, necrophagic savages.
Broodmothers - 'nuff said.
Dragons/Old Gods - Beautiful, wise, powerful, and completely without conscience or remorse, glutting their hunger for months in preperation for clutching of instantly mindless and ravenous young.
The Fade - Even your dreams can kill you.
Andraste - The messiah who failed.
Funeral practices - Bodies are burned ostensibly in memory of Andraste... The real reason is so that demons can't posess your family's corpse...
Grey Wardens - The best, brightest, and most talented in the lands... Doomed to a life of nightmare and encroaching madness, endlessly drawn towards certain death in the deep roads, all for the questionable benefit of a temporary immunity to infection. Face it, Wardens are the corpse-cart carriers of DA.
Dwarves - Born into a life of neverending, hopeless war.
Not a thing of real light or beauty in the entire mythos, is there? Even the griffons are extinct.
You obviously have not read Berserk. Here's a bit of imagery for you.Owyn_Merrilin said:
There are some others I could use that are better, but they are too graphic for this message board.
You must have missed the part where Gray Warden live only 20-30 years after the Joining, cause the corruption WILL eventually take them, but they prevent dying a slow death from the corruption by going into the Deep Roads and dying in battle.Vern5 said:
Dragon Age a dark fantasy? NO! Brown fantasy certainly! Like it or not Dragon Age deserved to be called more then just fantasy or just another fantasy RPG game, Origins in particular was superb.Vern5 said:
My only hopes now are that Bioware will restore their honor by giving us a very good third instalment of the series cause Dragon Age 2 not only failed at tying loose ends like what happened to Morrigan and the kid or what happened to the Arhitect, but also rose even more questions like what happened to Hawke.
Cliffhanger endings are nice and all but not when you have so many plot holes.
Derp. Origins had more complex choices and gameplay than any of their games after NWN.SFMB said:
[sub]And the presence of serious choices in that game and Baldur's Gate is debatable, even if they are some of my favorite games ever.[/sub]
It's true, that man has no dick.Scars Unseen said:
Looks like I stand corrected on Berserk -- although it's not a given. Dark fantasy is horror pretty much all the way through, whereas a story that just happens to have some horrifying monsters can still be low fantasy, or even high fantasy for that matter. It's hard to describe, but it has more to do with the feel of a piece than the actual content. The Wheel of Time, for example, has its share of grotesque abominations, but it's still high fantasy, without any elements of dark fantasy at all. The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, on the other hand, has monsters that are nowhere near as gross or scary as some of the scariest from The Wheel of Time, but it's the archetype for dark fantasy. That said, I haven't read Berserk, I was just going off of what I've read about it.Scars Unseen said:You obviously have not read Berserk. Here's a bit of imagery for you.Owyn_Merrilin said:
There are some others I could use that are better, but they are too graphic for this message board.
Both "dark" and "horror" imply that, even if a solution exists, it would be nearly unthinkable to use. Horror is only horror because we are incapable of effectively facing it; the moment one has the real capacity to confront it it ceases to be horror entirely.SnakeCL said:
It's Dark Fantasy because everybody has xtreme haemophilia.
But yeah as others have said, it isn't really dark fantasy, sure the setting looks like it was based on ther notes of someone who spent half an hour googleing "grim dark fantasy" but the game never really follows up on it or portrays it in a consistent way.
But yeah as others have said, it isn't really dark fantasy, sure the setting looks like it was based on ther notes of someone who spent half an hour googleing "grim dark fantasy" but the game never really follows up on it or portrays it in a consistent way.
The vast majority of Berserk is horrific in nature. Anything that isn't is setting the stage to make the inevitable death/torture/rape/betrayal more horrific. The last dozen chapters I read, as it's still on-going, seemed to be lightening up some, but I'm convinced that was just another lull to make me care about the characters it was going to savagely violate later. Which is why I haven't read it for sometime actually.Owyn_Merrilin said:
I'm not really seeing the point of posts that say "well its dark because of this thing I read in the codex". This is a game, purportedly, a dark fantasy game. All of the horror elements are revealed in back story and other crap like that. Outside exposition does not actually make the game-world dark and I find it impossible to feel the darkness through the gameplay either.
As for Berserk... I really wish that was a game I could play right now. Those Nightmare creatures just look terrifying and otherworldly, like creatures that can only be harmed by other unnatural creatures that you would have to coerce into doing your bidding by sacrificing whole civilizations to them. See what I did in that last sentence? That's dark. Well, maybe not the best I could think of but I'll explain why its especially dark.
In my experience, the best kind of Dark Fantasy has a sense of hanging doom upon it, like whatever you do to stave off annihilation will not seem worth it. For example, say that Random Fantasy Civilization A is about to be devoured by Cosmic Monstrosity B. The local lords and mages have devised a way to subdue another Cosmic Monstrosity C to devour Cosmic Monstrosity B. However, in order to lure Monster C into the cunningly devised leash the mages have constructed, the local lords will have to provide a quaint little hamlet filled with innocent, unsuspecting lives for Monstrosity C to eat on its way to combating Monstrosity B.
The plan works. Monstrosity B & C fight in an epic duel. Monstrosity C devours B. Unfortunately, after gorging itself, Monstrosity C decides to take a nap and its massive girth flattens a quarter of Random Fantasy Civilization A as it beds down for the next century.
That's Dark Fantasy, as I see it. The ends just barely justify the means and everything turns out a little worse than it was before.
As for Berserk... I really wish that was a game I could play right now. Those Nightmare creatures just look terrifying and otherworldly, like creatures that can only be harmed by other unnatural creatures that you would have to coerce into doing your bidding by sacrificing whole civilizations to them. See what I did in that last sentence? That's dark. Well, maybe not the best I could think of but I'll explain why its especially dark.
In my experience, the best kind of Dark Fantasy has a sense of hanging doom upon it, like whatever you do to stave off annihilation will not seem worth it. For example, say that Random Fantasy Civilization A is about to be devoured by Cosmic Monstrosity B. The local lords and mages have devised a way to subdue another Cosmic Monstrosity C to devour Cosmic Monstrosity B. However, in order to lure Monster C into the cunningly devised leash the mages have constructed, the local lords will have to provide a quaint little hamlet filled with innocent, unsuspecting lives for Monstrosity C to eat on its way to combating Monstrosity B.
The plan works. Monstrosity B & C fight in an epic duel. Monstrosity C devours B. Unfortunately, after gorging itself, Monstrosity C decides to take a nap and its massive girth flattens a quarter of Random Fantasy Civilization A as it beds down for the next century.
That's Dark Fantasy, as I see it. The ends just barely justify the means and everything turns out a little worse than it was before.
JediMB said:
That dialogue was hard to really get as to what he really did to her. He said "And now I found her face," despite the character model looking like her head. Even still, his ramblings talked about her "eyes" and a whole bunch of other shit. So, as far as I understand it, he cut off her head, put it on the mangled body, and replaced her eyes... and after that, she still had enough life in her to say goodbye to Hawke despite she was technically only... most of a head...
Yeah... wanna pretend we never talked about this?