How was Dragon Age a dark Fantasy?
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Regardless of how you define "Dark Fantasy", the Dragon Age games are not true Dark Fantasy. As many others have stated, Dark Fantasy is a combination of fantasy elements- sword and sorcery, fantastic creatures, etc.- and horror elements- hideous creatures, terror, psychological themes, madness etc.- of which, yes, Dragon Age does have some, but it's not presented or crafted in a way that puts it firmly in the Dark Fantasy, AKA Horror Fantasy or Gothic Fantasy category, of which the DA games are clearly neither. However, I will admit that the Dark Fantasy genre is nebulously defined at best, so I suppose if one wanted to, one could define it as Dark Fantasy, based on some very loose guidelines.Anah said:
Regardless, I and many others would consider Dragon Age to be far more entrenched in the Low Fantasy end of the specturm, which is where you find your hack 'n slash, your goblins, your mages and wizards, your world saving storyline.
Most of the examples you cite, the elves, the slavery, the Gray Wardens, wars... all that stuff is standard Low Fantasy stuff. If DA had further explored or had been focussed on the relationship between the Gray Wardens and the Darkspawn, then it definitely could have been a Dark Fantasy. As it stands, the Gray Wardens and their affinity with the Darkspawn was merely used as an element to further the storyline of the battle against the Darkspawn, which was, at least in Origins, largely overshadowed by the political intrigues of Faerun and Teryn Loghain's betrayls.
There are definite "dark" elements in the DA games, and it has a definite "grit" to it, but they are far from your traditional or accepted definition Dark Fantasy stories or settings.
There are two definitions of Dark Fantasy, and Dragon Age fits the second one. I can quote it if you like:Zom-B said:
Low Fantasy? Low Fantasy is anything but Dragon Age. Dragon Age is too much "Fantasy" for that. It is an entirely fictional setting and right up into your face with magic, dragons and elves. Song of Ice and Fire is more "Low" fantasy than that. Better yet the Joe Abercrombie books I was referring to earlier.
You mean "Fantasy" stuff. And I have not seen a Gray Warden yet. However, the elements are familiar, of course. It is a "Fantasy" setting, after all.
And that is where you are wrong. Unless you disregard everything aside from gameplay and straight forward dialogue, then the "relationship" between the Gray Warden and the Darkspawn has been explored in great detail. Even more so as you move forward with Awakening (and read the Calling); but DA:O already has enough information in it to show just how fucked up the whole deal is.
It's the gameplay that keeps Dragon Age: Origins from feeling truly "dark"; That and the decision to have it focus around the saving of a world, instead of delving into something more private as it would have given them a better opportunity to explore the horrors that lie beyond your quest to defeat the Blight.
DA2 did a good job there though, and I hope to improve on that.
Again though it seems that alot of folks are just blatantly ignoring the "details" and not working their imagination quite enough, which leads to them skimming the surface and not actually getting to the nice juicy bits.
Not really, Lord of the Rings is tragic but it it isn't dark. Now tragic elements can certainly help reinforce dark elements but on their own they don't make a work dark.Magefeanor said:
To be honest apart from the gore I don't see anything in Dragon Age that's darker the Lord of the Rings.
But it's not, Bioware self describes Dragon Age: Origins as "dark heroic fantasy". The 'heroic' bit is what sets it apart from what true dark fantasy might normally entail. So it's ultimately a heroic tale told in the framing of a dark setting, which pretty much exactly describes Dragon Age: Origins.Vern5 said:
Low Fantasy and Sword and Sorcery are two very distinct subgenres of fantasy. "Low" Fantasy is commonly used to denote a world where the fantastical elements have been scaled back, either not existing in a separate world or being very grounded in reality.Owyn_Merrilin said:
Sword and Sorcery is typically associated with works that present more tightly focused and personal stories, and doesn't really speak to how fantastical the elements or settings are.
Most of those are quite specifically not the standard of Low Fantasy. See above.Zom-B said:
You do realize that if Dragon Age: Origins had focused on those 'details' within the game, made them the forefront of the story rather than a side-dish, people like me wouldn't be able to deny its Darkness. If Dragon Age really had been Dark, then nobody would have been able to ignore the obvious amounts of dark content because it would have been the first thing anyone saw once they started the game.Anah said:
Why would a game billed as being A Dark Fantasy hide the majority of its horrifying elements in non-vital text? DA has so much potential to fascinate as well as horrify and it was buried and, mostly, left unexplored. And even some of the horror elements that were physically presented had little horror about them once you found that, if you stab it enough times, the horror could be removed.
Yes but it's not any darker than say the Nazgul's backstory or the Army of the Dead. Maybe if body horror had been a recurring theme in the game but as it was it was just a random tentacle monster boss fight, bedsides it lost alot of horror because whle they horribly mutate one dwarf they just let her friend wander round reciting emo poetry.Spacewolf said:
And when your stealing your horrific elements from Slither you should just take that as a hint to give up.
At first, I'd say that it really isn't, but the idea of hopelessness in a world where the main religion says that God abandoned you bastards, where political turmoil is everywhere, and the world stands on the brink of an invasion no one is prepared for (at least in the country it starts in) by significantly dark creatures, and the only hope is one of the last survivors of a group that was wiped out due to betrayal whose members only live 20-30 years before their power drives them insane really is a bit dark when you think about it.
Alternate answer: Broodmother.
Alternate answer: Broodmother.
How does the addition of the word 'Heroic' exempt the complete product from being judged as a Dark Fantasy? A Heroic fantasy is just overarching tale of a Hero and those associated with him, which is an apt description of what DA is about. You can't just ignore the Dark aspect, though. Put together, a Heroic Dark Fantasy would be: "A fantasy story that focuses on a specific Hero and those who are associated with him and his exploits that is based in a fantasy setting that is pessimistic, bleak, and morally ambiguous"Slycne said:
Overall, DA:O is missing those last three adjectives.
And that's the issue, really. You need to do a lot of thinking and lore scouring to get the dark fantasy vibe out of Dragon Age. The game itself is a bit of a lark...you plow through enemies relatively unopposed, you snark and sass with your snarky and sassy companions, and you save the day. On a gameplay level it's about as dark as the Princess Bride.Delock said:
Part of the issue is that text is a lousy form of content and lore delivery that we really need to be moving past. Bioware needs to weave more pathos into the storyline and game world so it's on display and we don't have to read about it, we can see and hear it. DA2 is a step in the right direction, but a fairly mincing step.
I laughed at the "dark fantasy" stuff, too, but honestly...
I think the overall tone of the game, in terms of music and design, was misleading. The actual storyline was very dark.
The joining ritual was pretty damn dark. First guy drops dead on the spot. Second guy sees this, has second thoughts on account of his family, and is immediately murdered by your teacher. Later, you find out that you are cursed to a lifetime of nightmares that culminate in your early, inevitable death in the deep caves of the dark roads.
The brash, likable king is killed in the very first battle, betrayed by his lifelong advisor. The tower of magi has been completely overrun by demons, who have turned all of the mages into mutated monsters. The elves are being slaughtered by werewolves. The darkspawn are bred by broodmothers, who are basically mutated, constantly-raped females. And the archdemon at the center? Someone has to die in order to kill it.
The brash, likable king is killed in the very first battle, betrayed by his lifelong advisor. The tower of magi has been completely overrun by demons, who have turned all of the mages into mutated monsters. The elves are being slaughtered by werewolves. The darkspawn are bred by broodmothers, who are basically mutated, constantly-raped females. And the archdemon at the center? Someone has to die in order to kill it.
I think the overall tone of the game, in terms of music and design, was misleading. The actual storyline was very dark.
Is sacrificing yourself to annihilate some godlike evil really that tragic? I mean, its sad for the people who care about that particular sacrifice but think of it in these terms: We are all going to die. We will live out our lives at a variable pace but, in the end, we all die. Now, if someone told me that I could save the world by sacrificing myself to destroy an identifiable, horrendous evil, I would do it without question as long as its destruction is guaranteed. That is a wonderful way to end one's life, in the service of those he holds dear. That's tragic but heroic and obviously worth it in the end.
Sorry, I misspoke when I used the term "Low Fantasy". You're right, I should have said "High Fantasy".Anah said:
Aside from that, I'm still going to choose to disagree with you that DA is "Dark Fantasy". It may be grittier than most, but for me, a person that's read many, many fantasy series and stories, it doesn't hit the right notes. If anything, it strikes me as modern fantasy, taking the old elements and infusing modern sensibilities to them- language, attitudes and actions that we don't necessarily see in classic medieval style fantasy, as well as the moral ambiguity that we find in modern fantasy novels, but not in the more "classically" written works.
I did state that you could define DA as Dark Fantasy if you loosened up your guidelines, as you have chosen to do.
I'll admit that I did not play Awakenings nor did I read The Calling (and I never have, nor ever will read a video game tie-in novel, one of the lowest forms of cash grab, imo, and usually written either by under-skilled unknowns or less discriminating writers more interested in a buck than a quality novel. But that's just me), as after my initial playthrough of Origins I never wanted to touch the game again. I found it too much a rip-off of LoTR for my tastes, too cliched.
Anyway, I suppose I must bow to your superior familiarity with the games and other source material. All I can say is that for me Dragon Age: Origins did not once strike me as a Dark Fantasy story and from what I've read of the story elements of DA2, neither is it.
However, I can quote Wikipedia as well:
"Dark fantasy (also called horror fantasy or Gothic fantasy) is a fantasy subgenre that combines elements of fantasy with those of horror.[1] Another definition of the genre is "a type of horror story in which humanity is threatened by forces beyond human understanding."
By that, we can easily see that DA does not fit the definition. Who's right in the end? I suppose we both are. I guess it just depends on what criteria you use to establish your definition of Dark Fantasy. And by doing that, we can make just about anything fit either definition, if we try hard enough.
Genres are not checklists that must be individually checked off. I certainly hope you are not pushing that every piece of media must be able to perfectly line up in exact proportions, because that would be incredibly boring and restrictive. Everything should be free to grab and incorporate little bits and pieces were it sees fit, where it starts to weigh and balance is where we can begin to define based on it. If you found nothing pessimistic, bleak or morally ambiguous about Dragon Age: Origins than I question what game you played instead with the cover accidentally swapped. The simply test would be to examine if Dragon Age: Origins is more dark than it is light, and I can't see anyone saying it isn't.Vern5 said:
Is Dragon Age: Origins hardcore Dark Fantasy, no, but it never attributed itself to being that. It's a heroic journey with dark elements.
Let's not get stuck on assumptions. I'm going to be painstakingly clear for your benefit. DA:O was advertised as a Dark Fantasy. During gameplay, there was nothing that made the game seem like it was more Dark Fantasy than High Fantasy. During gameplay, it was never shown that the world we were navigating was a dark horrible place until the Darkspawn start showing up. Based on everything that was shown to the player, DA:O, as a whole, was not a Dark Fantasy. So why was it advertised as such in the first place?Slycne said:
Your human parents are murdered by those that would use the Blight to further there own gain. Your city elven bride or you the character are taken from you on your wedding day by a human noble claiming the right of 'privileges'. Presumably taken from your parents at a young age, you either survive your Harrowing as a mage or you will be cut down by Templars as you turn into a demon possessed abombination. Etc and so on.Vern5 said:
Yes, clearly there are zero dark elements before the Darkspawn show up.
I quite enjoyed the rat-man having a good time with their womenScars Unseen said:You obviously have not read Berserk. Here's a bit of imagery for you.Owyn_Merrilin said:
There are some others I could use that are better, but they are too graphic for this message board.
Too bad the later chapters of Berserk seemed to have a bit too much humor or rather feel pretty light, now that he has assembled his DnD group, the little rogue, the little sorceress ... well ... you get the picture > . >-- Stopped reading after the 'Maharaj' got pwnt by Griffith, and Gats left with his little flotilla