How was Dragon Age a dark Fantasy?

[Vern5]

During gameplay, it was never shown that the world we were navigating was a dark horrible place until the Darkspawn start showing up. Based on everything that was shown to the player, DA:O, as a whole, was not a Dark Fantasy. So why was it advertised as such in the first place?

Your human parents are murdered by those that would use the Blight to further there own gain. Your city elven bride or you the character are taken from you on your wedding day by a human noble claiming the right of 'privileges'. Presumably taken from your parents at a young age, you either survive your Harrowing as a mage or you will be cut down by Templars as you turn into a demon possessed abombination. Etc and so on.

Yes, clearly there are zero dark elements before the Darkspawn show up.

In each of the origin stories the player wins and even takes revenge in some of those cases with very little collateral damage to anything the player cares about (except maybe in the Elvish and Human origins, and even those weren't staggeringly tragic either). Anyway, thats not really the point. The Dark Fantasy setting is composed of horror elements as well as fantasy elements. You're right, of course. There are dark elements but those elements are never present enough to make the whole thing a Dark Fantasy. The GAME just doesn't feel that Dark. If you think that every tragic event in the game is Dark than you must think that Shakespeare and Lovecraft wrote the same kinds of literature.

 

[Slycne]

In each of the origin stories the player wins and even takes revenge in some of those cases with very little collateral damage to anything the player cares about (except maybe in the Elvish and Human origins, and even those weren't staggeringly tragic either). Anyway, thats not really the point. The Dark Fantasy setting is composed of horror elements as well as fantasy elements. You're right, of course. There are dark elements but those elements are never present enough to make the whole thing a Dark Fantasy. The GAME just doesn't feel that Dark. If you think that every tragic event in the game is Dark than you must think that Shakespeare and Lovecraft wrote the same kinds of literature.

I think you're getting too caught up on a single definition of dark fantasy.

There is Dark Fantasy, which is what you are relating - a story consisting of both fantasy elements and horror elements, Lovecraft is a great example. The best you can hope for in Lovecraftian dark fantasy is maybe insanity. The is also a subgenre of fantasy that focuses or touches on darker themes which is also refereed to as Dark Fantasy, but it often separated from Dark Fantasy by existing in mythical High Fantasy settings and does not broach into the horror element as much, as that would often or primarily require that the protagonist be powerless or less powerful than whatever is afflicting them.

 

[Vern5]

In each of the origin stories the player wins and even takes revenge in some of those cases with very little collateral damage to anything the player cares about (except maybe in the Elvish and Human origins, and even those weren't staggeringly tragic either). Anyway, thats not really the point. The Dark Fantasy setting is composed of horror elements as well as fantasy elements. You're right, of course. There are dark elements but those elements are never present enough to make the whole thing a Dark Fantasy. The GAME just doesn't feel that Dark. If you think that every tragic event in the game is Dark than you must think that Shakespeare and Lovecraft wrote the same kinds of literature.

I think you're getting too caught up on a single definition of dark fantasy.

There is Dark Fantasy[/i], which is what you are relating - a story consisting of both fantasy elements and horror elements, Lovecraft is a great example. The is also a subgenre of fantasy that focuses or touches on darker themes which is also refereed to as Dark Fantasy, but it often separated from Dark Fantasy by existing in mythical High Fantasy settings.

Definitions were never really required since DA:O does not feel like a Dark Fantasy while one is playing it.

 

[badgersprite]

Because the marketing department came up with a term and forced all the designers and spokespeople to throw it around in interviews?

It's just an advertising gimmick. Like 'realistic war shooter'.

 

[Slycne]

Definitions were never really required since DA:O does not feel like a Dark Fantasy while one is playing it.

How does it not? Reading through this thread, posters have given numerous examples of where the story has darker themes - be it rape/sexual assault, horrific mutation, possessions ,moral ambiguity and scenes of bleakness.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

Let us not forget the slicing of your wrists to get the best spells. It's not as dark as they want it too be, since the demons are hardly ferocious or nightmare inducing, and can generally be beaten with swords and sticks, but the concepts behind it are supposed to be darker than normal. If, instead of your run of the mill demons, you fought things like Eldritch abominations that required sufficiently powered mages to combat, or a whole team of people to rush in and save you, or something to that effect, I'd have been more impressed with their dark fantasy. The second gets darker by touching Necromancy beyond raising a sword-wielding minion, so there's some dark, dark hope for the future.

Although, if you listen to the dwarf girl, Hespith I think her name was, in the Deep Roads...that's some pretty dark stuff. Rapes, mutilations, bodily torture, forced ingestion of those you knew and loved, and mutation into a Broodmother was some pretty sick stuff.

 

[Axolotl]

Definitions were never really required since DA:O does not feel like a Dark Fantasy while one is playing it.

How does it not? Reading through this thread, posters have given numerous examples of where the story has darker themes - be it rape/sexual assault, horrific mutation, possessions ,moral ambiguity and scenes of bleakness.

Bjut at the same time most of it has you steamrollingf through badguy hoards while you companions make semi-ironic witty comments like they're in some New York sitcom about 20-something manchildren. None of which is bad but the games never has a consistently dark tone. Yes bad things happen but it's not in a concetrated way. Once again I'll say that nothing in the game is more dark than LotR gets, and that's fine but LotR isn't dark fantasy.

 

[Vern5]

The Broodmother is probably the darkest part of of DA:O but that threat can be chopped up with swords and spells so any terror that creature once had vanishes once its cold corpse is robbed of its last Health Point. While the concept itself is horrifying, the threat can be contained and handled by a group of 4 heroes so. Horror dies when it can be killed, especially in conventional ways.

How does it not? Reading through this thread, posters have given numerous examples of where the story has darker themes - be it rape/sexual assault, horrific mutation, possessions ,moral ambiguity and scenes of bleakness.

As for this ^ Those were not themes in the game. They were specific situations that the player character practically solves. Maybe not all of them, but enough of them that any lasting bleakness is abated by your very presence in the game. That makes DA:O a heroic fantasy rather than a Dark Fantasy. A Dark Fantasy would not only have these situations and unpreventable but almost normal within the setting. Not normal by way of societal acceptance but normal because the horrific frequency of the aforementioned events.

 

[MorphingDragon]

I laughed at the "dark fantasy" stuff, too, but honestly...

Spoiler

The joining ritual was pretty damn dark. First guy drops dead on the spot. Second guy sees this, has second thoughts on account of his family, and is immediately murdered by your teacher. Later, you find out that you are cursed to a lifetime of nightmares that culminate in your early, inevitable death in the deep caves of the dark roads.

The brash, likable king is killed in the very first battle, betrayed by his lifelong advisor. The tower of magi has been completely overrun by demons, who have turned all of the mages into mutated monsters. The elves are being slaughtered by werewolves. The darkspawn are bred by broodmothers, who are basically mutated, constantly-raped females. And the archdemon at the center? Someone has to die in order to kill it.

I think the overall tone of the game, in terms of music and design, was misleading. The actual storyline was very dark.

If you perform the "dark" ritual with Morrigian, no one "dies" and the baby absorbs the soul.

What she plans to use the baby for is not really explained, but the DLC suggests that she's going to use the power to resist Flemeth?

 

[RipCanvas]

I haven't had the chance to play Dragon Age 2 because I lack a PS3, but I did play Dragon Age: Origins.

By definition fantasy horror/dark fantasy is supposedly comparable to the writings of authors like H.P. Lovecraft. His stories are extremely disturbing or unsettling, not necessarily scary or surprising like horror movies usually are. Dragon Age: Origins certainly had the potential to be a dark fantasy - the threat of the Darkspawn alone and how they come into the world, how they spread, what they do to people, etc, was enough to make me feel unsettled. As you play through the game it doesn't necessarily wane but it definitely doesn't increase as you progress, which in my opinion is how dark fantasy should work. For example, when you go through the quest where the prince of some town [I can't remember, I played this game a while ago] is possessed by a demon of lust, when you actually enter the fade [I think is what they called it, if I remember correctly] I felt more nervous. Having an extra plane of existence you can access by ritual, and the threat of being stuck there, is unsettling. And then when you actually encounter the demon herself, the conversation you have with her, however you decide to go through it, is disturbing on its own. Even if you deny her and defeat her, the threat of the boy remaining un-possessed is not gone. But for the game as a whole, I didn't really get a feeling of urgency to fix the Darkspawn problem.

But the Grey Wardens are supposed to be tragic because of what they do and why, and what happens to them when their time is up. They didn't play it up enough in the Origins game, least wise with your character. I would have liked to have seen some insanity happen from the nightmares, and from the ability to feel the Darkspawn and sometimes hear their voices. Schizophrenia would definitely be a possibility. But seeing as you're playing a game and the creators didn't want the main protagonist killing themselves 3/4ths of the way through, there's really only so far you can go with the Grey Warden's sacrifice when your character becomes one without pissing off your players.

 

[Xanadu84]

Ill give it Dark Fantasy, just not extremely dark. Its darker then average, gore aside. First, you have to risk death to join the wardens, then, your lifespan is cut drastically. Elves live in segregated Ghettos and are considered less then human. Dwarfs commit regular fratricide, and enforce a rather viscous caste system. Theres the Brood Mother. A whole segment of magic is powered by demons, and involves blood sacrifices. There's insanity, rape, and mutilation. I can't really call it a horror game, but it has a darker edge then your average High Fantasy. Its dark fantasy in much the same way Mass Effect 2 is an RPG: It goes a lot lighter on those themes then usual, but it still fits the definition.

 

[Slycne]

Once again I'll say that nothing in the game is more dark than LotR gets, and that's fine but LotR isn't dark fantasy.

Alright, let's examine that claim then. For the sake of arguement, I'll point to your interactions with the Dalish.

Spoiler

I'm not going to type the whole things out, so please excuse me as I simply quote from the wiki.

Many centuries before the Fifth Blight, a tribe of humans dwelt near to the Brecilian Forest, and when Zathrian's clan passed near to their settlement, his family was captured by a group of humans. They tortured and murdered his son, then raped his daughter and left her for dead in the forest. The Dalish rescued her, but when his daughter found out that she was pregnant, she committed suicide in shame. Mad with grief and hate, and wanting to exact revenge for what the humans did to his family, Zathrian summoned the Spirit of the Forest and bound it to the body of a wolf, creating the monster known as Witherfang. This is what created the curse that now infects his people. The Lady asks the Warden to bring Zathrian to her to ask for his assistance to end the curse. She knows that Zathrian used his own blood to create the curse and because of this, he survives as long as the curse does, but hopes he will show mercy regardless.

The Warden has the option of choosing whether Zathrian lives or dies. If The Warden asks him to end the curse he will initially refuse and attack the party, but once defeated he will relent and end the curse, thus ending his life. If the Warden sides with the werewolves and attacks the Dalish camp he will be killed defending the camp. Finally, if the Warden kills Witherfang he will continue to lead his clan (unless the Warden decides to backstab him before returning to camp). If the Warden sided with the elves and killed Witherfang, Zathrian will appear as an ally atop the roof of Fort Drakon during the final battle against the Archdemon (PC only).

Please point to me where in Lord of the Rings they touch on all those dark elements demonstrated in that one section. There's some, but nothing that approaches it to that level or touches on certain themes.

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Derp. Origins had more complex choices and gameplay than any of their games after NWN.

[sub]And the presence of serious choices in that game and Baldur's Gate is debatable, even if they are some of my favorite games ever.[/sub]

Origins had more complex choices than any Bioware RPG except maybe KOTOR but it still sucked because Bioware doesn't really do the C&C thing. That doesnt say much. Also the game probably had more complex combat than NWN's OC too but again that doesn't say much because after BG 2 Bioware hasn't developed anything that complex or strategic. And again it didn't help the game because derp scaling, derp balance and derp encounter design made combat a chore. Having more C&C than BG or a more complex fighting engine than Jade Empire doesn't say much especially when the rest of the game is lacking.

 

[Axolotl]

Once again I'll say that nothing in the game is more dark than LotR gets, and that's fine but LotR isn't dark fantasy.

Alright, let's examine that claim then. For the sake of arguement, I'll point to your interactions with the Dalish.

Spoiler

I'm not going to type the whole things out, so please excuse me as I simply quote from the wiki.

Many centuries before the Fifth Blight, a tribe of humans dwelt near to the Brecilian Forest, and when Zathrian's clan passed near to their settlement, his family was captured by a group of humans. They tortured and murdered his son, then raped his daughter and left her for dead in the forest. The Dalish rescued her, but when his daughter found out that she was pregnant, she committed suicide in shame. Mad with grief and hate, and wanting to exact revenge for what the humans did to his family, Zathrian summoned the Spirit of the Forest and bound it to the body of a wolf, creating the monster known as Witherfang. This is what created the curse that now infects his people. The Lady asks the Warden to bring Zathrian to her to ask for his assistance to end the curse. She knows that Zathrian used his own blood to create the curse and because of this, he survives as long as the curse does, but hopes he will show mercy regardless.

The Warden has the option of choosing whether Zathrian lives or dies. If The Warden asks him to end the curse he will initially refuse and attack the party, but once defeated he will relent and end the curse, thus ending his life. If the Warden sides with the werewolves and attacks the Dalish camp he will be killed defending the camp. Finally, if the Warden kills Witherfang he will continue to lead his clan (unless the Warden decides to backstab him before returning to camp). If the Warden sided with the elves and killed Witherfang, Zathrian will appear as an ally atop the roof of Fort Drakon during the final battle against the Archdemon (PC only).

Please point to me where in Lord of the Rings they touch on all those dark elements demonstrated in that one section. There's some, but nothing that approaches it to that level or touches on certain themes.

Well I'kll go for the obvious comparison with the elves from the LotR. In LotR the elves are committing mass suicide because their kingdoms will never again be as glorious as they once were. Then there are other parts like say the Army of the Dead, who are kept half-alive for hundreds of years trapped in an underground necropolis because their betryal almost destroyed humanity.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

I'm apparently going to spoil something in Dragon Age 2 with a movie reference.

Spoiler

So, basically, there's a serial killer doing his rendition of the movie May, collecting pretty parts to make a friend.

Spoiler

Yeah, it's that classic serial killer storyline of a gruesome search to resurrect his lost love. Very Dr. Frankenstein.

 

[Slycne]

Well I'kll go for the obvious comparison with the elves from the LotR. In LotR the elves are committing mass suicide because their kingdoms will never again be as glorious as they once were. Then there are other parts like say the Army of the Dead, who are kept half-alive for hundreds of years trapped in an underground necropolis because their betryal almost destroyed humanity.

Ok, like I said, there are certainly some. No piece of literature or media is going to be exclusively one sides, expect maybe like the Teletubbies. I just don't feel that those reach the same tone as the situations in Dragon Age: Origins. Neither of those, for example, are so steeped in moral ambiguity. The Army of the Dead were cursed for breaking their oath is a lot more clear cut than century past decedents being punished with a curse for an evil act, who than struck back against the Dalish decedents because of their Keeper's connection to them.

 

[mireko]

Derp. Origins had more complex choices and gameplay than any of their games after NWN.

[sub]And the presence of serious choices in that game and Baldur's Gate is debatable, even if they are some of my favorite games ever.[/sub]

Origins had more complex choices than any Bioware RPG except maybe KOTOR but it still sucked because Bioware doesn't really do the C&C thing. That doesnt say much. Also the game probably had more complex combat than NWN's OC too but again that doesn't say much because after BG 2 Bioware hasn't developed anything that complex or strategic. And again it didn't help the game because derp scaling, derp balance and derp encounter design made combat a chore. Having more C&C than BG or a more complex fighting engine than Jade Empire doesn't say much especially when the rest of the game is lacking.

I was responding to a post that was (half-jokingly) suggesting they used the 'dark fantasy' label as a marketing tactic to distract people from BioWare's games becoming less complex and more narrow in terms of choice. Anyone who has played their games this decade knows that doesn't make any sense, since their more recent games have been somewhat more complex than what they were doing in the sixth generation.

I wasn't saying it was the pinnacle of complexity or design (although I certainly enjoyed it, to the point where I consider it the best game of 2009), and I'm not sure why you assumed that.

EDIT: Wait, "this decade" doesn't really work. Let's just say "the last ten years".

 

[emeraldrafael]

I'm pretty sure when (and I've only played on the elf and human male path) your best friend/family (respectively) get slaughtered in the opening mission, then you are given the choice to let people die or save them, and even kill one of yur own, you get into the area of dark fantasy.

Besides, the whole thing had the dark feel to it. it was really, it wasnt cartoony.