How would other animals view our ritual suicides?

[Kryzantine]

So I just had this thought while pondering the Histories of Herodotus (amazing set, by the way, that I would highly recommend to a lot of people); Book 1 tells the story of Atys, the son of the Lydian king Croesus, and of Adrastus, the exiled son of the king of Phrygia, who finds redemption in Croesus's court. When Adrastus accidentally slays Atys in a hunting accident, Adrastus asks Croesus to be ritualistically slaughtered over the corpse of Atys. When Croesus refuses, Adrastus commits ritual suicide over the corpse anyway. Thus, Croesus loses his prized guest as well as his son.

Now, the much more popular example of ritual suicide would be seppuku, which occurs as a warrior is either about to fall into enemy hands, or as a move to restore lost honour as a result of the committing of a major offense, such as abandoning their leader. The key word here is honour, really. That's a tad important for the question I am posing.

Is this kind of action evolutionary backwardness or forwardness? First of all, are there any other members of the animal kingdom that perform ritual suicide? I would think we are not the only species that experiences the feeling of honour, yet I do not know of any other animal species that seeks to protect whatever honour it has by killing themselves. Secondly, I would consider the evolutionary aspect of this: while the loss of a member of a species may affect the survival of the species, it may also be a way of a species cleansing its own gene pool - members who are deemed bad killing themselves so as to not pass themselves on.

It's a really weird and incomplete question, but if you were to look at our ritual suicides from the perspective of another animal - say, the lions - wouldn't it look very creepy? Why do humans perform ritual suicide? What purpose does it serve our species?

 

[The Epicosity]

May I just say Lemmings and not put in anything else?

 

[infohippie]

It's a really weird and incomplete question, but if you were to look at our ritual suicides from the perspective of another animal - say, the lions - wouldn't it look very creepy? Why do humans perform ritual suicide? What purpose does it serve our species?

I'd say it looks weird and creepy from the perspective of another human. No need to bring another species into it. When someone commits suicide there is either something very wrong with him (or her), or something very wrong with the social rules he has been indoctrinated with (such as with the samurai). Any suicide that is not either for the sake of saving someone else or voluntary euthanasia to put an end to an incurable illness, is a very very bad idea.

 

[FalloutJack]

May I just say Lemmings and not put in anything else?

What lemmings have to say on the subject of ritual suicide...

Lemming: Blimey, couldn't they think up something original for once?

 

[Biosophilogical]

The closest I am aware of is that I think wolves/dogs, when they are severly injured or sick, will separate themselves from the pack until they either get better or die. Then again, I can't remember where I heard it, and it isn't so much suicide, as it is acting for the benefit of the whole, rather than the individual.

As for suicide? I think that it is an incredibly stupid thing to do (by itself, obviously things like sacrificing yourself to save others is not stupid). Unless you have absolutely no attachments to anyone, then you are causing pain to other people, and if you don't then you are ending the only existence you have, ever. You simply cease to be, and that is a waste.

 

[Jark212]

It's a really weird and incomplete question, but if you were to look at our ritual suicides from the perspective of another animal - say, the lions - wouldn't it look very creepy? Why do humans perform ritual suicide? What purpose does it serve our species?

I'd say it looks weird and creepy from the perspective of another human. No need to bring another species into it. When someone commits suicide there is either something very wrong with him (or her), or something very wrong with the social rules he has been indoctrinated with (such as with the samurai). Any suicide that is not either for the sake of saving someone else or voluntary euthanasia to put an end to an incurable illness, is a very very bad idea.

I'm in complete agreement here brother, I couldn't think of a more perfect argument...

Now back to animals, I doubt they have any concept or suicide, but on the contrary some animals will commit selfless acts to defend their allies (mate, offspring, pack), most commonly with dogs willing to sacrifice themselves defending their masters and packs...

 

[Norendithas]

I believe they would view it as a very foolish action. This would be because if you view other species way of living, and pretty much ANYTHING living, their main goal is survival-- survival of the species over the individual more specifically. They live to reproduce and 'grow out' their species. This is naturally ingrained in the minds of any living being due to the statistical advantage of a large population surviving anything that threatens their species from climate change to predation. It's inherent to their being.

Because ritual suicide is based off of honor as you said, from a standpoint of surviving it's useless and in some cases, redundant. Using the examples you gave:

- A warrior or proud person is about to be killed or taken prisoner (etc.), so perform seppuku (harakiri) in order to retain their honor. From a survivalist standpoint, either way that individual is dead (with the assumption that after capture there will be death).

- A warrior or proud person has committed an extreme offense or dishonored themselves or family, so they perform seppuku (or harakiri) to save face. From a survivalist standpoint, it's just another wasted life.

I would say that it is neither evolutionary forwardness or backwardness because while it isn't helping the species survive (though the human race is pretty stable on those terms), it also isn't putting much of a dent in the population. Now if we had mass seppuku (or harakiri), it would be much more of an issue.

"I would think we are not the only species that experiences the feeling of honour, yet I do not know of any other animal species that seeks to protect whatever honour it has by killing themselves"
- I am not too sure on the matter, but I have the inkling that you're correct and we're not the only species that feels honor. But I also think that while there might be another species that has an honor code, honor would not play as big a factor in their society as it does in ours.


EDIT: I would also like to point out that (in my interpretation owe're not just talking about suicide here, because of issues like depression, etc. but more about ritual suicide or honor playing in to reason for death.

 

[RN7]

Suicide seems kind of idiotic in any evolutionary sense, unless the suicide was derived from the organism's own stupidity or weakness. Ritualistic suicide doesn't seem to fall under this category (open for debate), so it's sort of detrimental. Granted, when you think about it, sort of, the warriors who didn't have to undergo seppuku were doing something right and were possibly stronger than the warriors that did, meaning the ones that died were weaker and thus would have weakened the gene pool had they reproduced. This is a very loose interpretation and lacks merit. Long story short: Intentionally killing yourself doesn't help.

 

[zehydra]

May I just say Lemmings and not put in anything else?

No, Lemmings don't actually kill themselves. That was an urban myth.

 

[The Epicosity]

It's a really weird and incomplete question, but if you were to look at our ritual suicides from the perspective of another animal - say, the lions - wouldn't it look very creepy? Why do humans perform ritual suicide? What purpose does it serve our species?

I'd say it looks weird and creepy from the perspective of another human. No need to bring another species into it. When someone commits suicide there is either something very wrong with him (or her), or something very wrong with the social rules he has been indoctrinated with (such as with the samurai). Any suicide that is not either for the sake of saving someone else or voluntary euthanasia to put an end to an incurable illness, is a very very bad idea.

I guess this fits the indoctrinated part, but what about when Japanese soldiers committed suicide for fear of being captured either because of propaganda or they knew their families would be forever shamed by other ones with sons who didn't let that happen or when you want to avoid something such as torture or some form of slow painful death?

 

[Kryzantine]

It's a really weird and incomplete question, but if you were to look at our ritual suicides from the perspective of another animal - say, the lions - wouldn't it look very creepy? Why do humans perform ritual suicide? What purpose does it serve our species?

I'd say it looks weird and creepy from the perspective of another human. No need to bring another species into it. When someone commits suicide there is either something very wrong with him (or her), or something very wrong with the social rules he has been indoctrinated with (such as with the samurai). Any suicide that is not either for the sake of saving someone else or voluntary euthanasia to put an end to an incurable illness, is a very very bad idea.

Well, consider the pressure that society can place on some of its members, and our idea of a legal system. Our oldest, longest lasting idea of law is simple: if someone kills another human, he himself must die. Then again, this is at a time where accidents are rather rare, yet as in the case of Adrastus above, even that calls for a suicide to redeem one's name. Shame is a notion that is inescapable in any human society.

You act as if the social rules that govern these ritual suicides brainwash the members of said society, yet they manage to instill responsibility in its people, a trait that is often lost among our more "modern" societies.

 

[Bloodwings]

It's a really weird and incomplete question, but if you were to look at our ritual suicides from the perspective of another animal - say, the lions - wouldn't it look very creepy? Why do humans perform ritual suicide? What purpose does it serve our species?

I'd say it looks weird and creepy from the perspective of another human. No need to bring another species into it. When someone commits suicide there is either something very wrong with him (or her), or something very wrong with the social rules he has been indoctrinated with (such as with the samurai). Any suicide that is not either for the sake of saving someone else or voluntary euthanasia to put an end to an incurable illness, is a very very bad idea.

Well, consider the pressure that society can place on some of its members, and our idea of a legal system. Our oldest, longest lasting idea of law is simple: if someone kills another human, he himself must die. Then again, this is at a time where accidents are rather rare, yet as in the case of Adrastus above, even that calls for a suicide to redeem one's name. Shame is a notion that is inescapable in any human society.

You act as if the social rules that govern these ritual suicides brainwash the members of said society, yet they manage to instill responsibility in its people, a trait that is often lost among our more "modern" societies.

The old 'An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,' law by Hammurabi? Seriously. I thought we were supposed to be talking about how rabbits, wolves, monkeys and other things are supposed to think of the retards committing suicide.

In the case of a carnivores mind: Free meal!

However, my two cents in this arguement is that the 'Code of Honor' system most people follow is stupid. Commiting suicide because it'd bring shame on your family if you didn't? God, I think only you'd be shamed for committing suicide in the first place. Seriously, not like your family would be shamed because of you (unless you were representing them all in front of important people...) Again, if you commit suicide, it's a waste of your life and seriously, any of your enemies could come up and start talking smack about your life and you wouldn't be able to do anything because you're, oh, I don't know, DEAD.

 

[SilentCom]

It would seem very foolish for an animal seeing that animals try to survive. Human beings on the other hand aren't surviving, we are thriving therefore the value of life isn't as valuable to our own perception as an animal would view their own survival. We're essentially beyond survival so if people die, it isn't detremental toward the survival of our species. Suicide isn't just ritualistic either.

 

[Dags90]

Well, consider the pressure that society can place on some of its members, and our idea of a legal system. Our oldest, longest lasting idea of law is simple: if someone kills another human, he himself must die. Then again, this is at a time where accidents are rather rare, yet as in the case of Adrastus above, even that calls for a suicide to redeem one's name. Shame is a notion that is inescapable in any human society. We can't even begin to draw generalizations when so much is missing.

You act as if the social rules that govern these ritual suicides brainwash the members of said society, yet they manage to instill responsibility in its people, a trait that is often lost among our more "modern" societies.

Your Western bias is showing. Our oldest ideas of everything are presumably lost to non-history, and cultures developed written language at differing times for different cultures. Many cultures never developed written language until after exposure to Western civilizations.

I don't think it's a good idea to try and understand ritual suicide from an evolutionary perspective, sociological and anthropological perspectives make more sense. And ritual suicides usually predominate in "shame cultures", with most Western nations being "guilt cultures". That is how most Western countries instill responsibilities.

 

[Halceon]

Honor is a neat, if obsolete, artifact of social evolution - a society of honorable people is safer, more likely to survive against adversity. However, since at no point in history has any culture consisted of mainly honor-bound people, everyone who has enough sense of honour to attempt suicide for it is a too good an example to be allowed to die.

 

[infohippie]

I guess this fits the indoctrinated part, but what about when Japanese soldiers committed suicide for fear of being captured either because of propaganda or they knew their families would be forever shamed by other ones with sons who didn't let that happen or when you want to avoid something such as torture or some form of slow painful death?

I see that as part of the social indoctrination, and the last part could be covered by my views on euthanasia (ie, there's nothing wrong with euthanasia if it's genuinely to escape from something painful that there's no other way out of).

Well, consider the pressure that society can place on some of its members, and our idea of a legal system. Our oldest, longest lasting idea of law is simple: if someone kills another human, he himself must die. Then again, this is at a time where accidents are rather rare, yet as in the case of Adrastus above, even that calls for a suicide to redeem one's name. Shame is a notion that is inescapable in any human society.

You act as if the social rules that govern these ritual suicides brainwash the members of said society, yet they manage to instill responsibility in its people, a trait that is often lost among our more "modern" societies.

Still a nasty form of social indoctrination in my view. "Shame" is bullshit and suicide is a coward's way out of it. If you're genuinely ashamed of something terrible you did, stick around and devote your life to making up for it or improving the world in some way. As for "instilling responsibility" - how many stories have you heard of this being the case, from societies of hundreds of thousands or even millions? A handful? And which of these were genuine historical tales rather than allegories designed to instil this worldview? One or two, maybe? I don't imagine most people from these societies were all that different to people today. But the common folk never get accurately recorded in tales and legends.

Any society that encourages suicide (again, except for my aforementioned caveats) has something very wrong with it.