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[Vivi22]

Basically what we have here are refutations of the "entitlement" bullshit gaming media and devs/publishers are slinging around like howling monkeys.

Total Biscuit on entitlement (starts at 10:49): "Stop thinking you can't make demands. This is how capitalism works." [http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0sYp-eggD1Q#t=649s]

Gotta love Total Biscuit. I completely agree with him, and with the articles in the OP.

If complaining about something you didn't like about a series of products which you've invested possibly more than $180 and hundreds of hours of your life into is acting entitled then we all need to be acting entitled a lot more often.

The simple fact that you paid either your money and time to experience the product gives you the right to say whatever the hell you want about it, and yes, to ask the company that made it to fix it if you aren't happy.

 

[Emiscary]

It seems to me like the games industry is TERRIFIED of having to actually be accountable to its customers. They've been able to hand wave the discontent at previous titles as the crying of socially inept teenagers with no grasp of how the world works up until now (y'know now that gaming is as mainstream if not MORE than television or movies). But now that there's a large coherent intelligent group of irate customers who feel cheated out of their time and money and are actively planning on making an ordered walk out on the brand in response (I might be projecting a bit here but meh) it's gonna be a bit harder for them to keep doing so.

NO other industry in the entirety of the world has the gall to repeatedly mistreat and let down their customers and then INSULT THEM TO THEIR FACES FOR BEING UPSET ABOUT IT. They'd be insane to do so, and yet for some reason its deemed okay in the gaming industry/media. Which if nothing else demonstrates their complete lack of respect for us.

 

[Navvan]

If you're spending money on a product you are entitled to voice your displeasure about the product, and ask for a replacement/refund. Whether or not you get one is up to business. If I buy a new appliance and it doesn't work I'm entitled to complain about it, and ask for a refund/replacement. The place I bought it from does not have to offer that service, but most do since its results in returning customers.

There is no reason the same can not be said of entertainment. Although the cost/benefit for the company is less clear cut, and may actually not be worth it for the company.

 

[Emiscary]

This debate had nothing to do with gamers being immature or entitled from the get go. That's just the spin the gaming media's put on the story to deflect from the real issue: the entertainment industry is an INDUSTRY, and in the information age you can no longer get away with shipping out an inferior or incomplete product and cashing your paycheck before anyone figures it out. This is why it's getting progressively harder in hollywood to make bank on a shitty movie. This is why people do things like pirate the specific songs they want when the industry blanketly tells them they're required to buy songs in packets of 15-20 of uncertain quality for top dollar. And it's why EA's gonna have to adjust its attitude towards it's customers when they demand that something be fixed when they feel it should be.

 

[Phlakes]

For the love of god, every name you see in the credits of a game is a person just like you, be a little fucking grateful once in a while.

My gratitude is the $60 I give them for the game. Beyond that, I owe them Jack Shit.

If I give them $60 for a product, and that product is not the product they sold (it is not as described in previews, advertisements, or packaging), I have every legal right - and the moral obligation - to complain about it. I have been cheated, and I'll be damned if I'll just lay down and take it.

That's not entitlement. That's the foundation of consumer capitalism. It doesn't work any other way.

And complain all you want. But where the entitlement comes in is demanding they change things to suit your opinions.

And I talked about this in another thread about something completely different, but you might want to stop dehumanizing Bioware into "machine that prints games for money". Yeah, that's how capitalism works, but it's not how every consumer has to work.

 

[SweetLiquidSnake]

Nnot all gamers are entitled but most are. PC gamers are much worse than console tho, only because a console costs like $200 and a good PC costs like 10x that so they feel the need to whine since they dropped all their savings on a graphics card.

Regardless of platform, I cant even express how much whining and douchebaggery arose since the announcement of mass effect 3, nitpicking every goddam detail. I have no problems with how the story was written, and loved the new and improved controls. I liked having Diana Allers on the ship. I gladly bought the Day 1 DLC and can't imagine how the game would have played without it.
Now the ending I will concur and say WTF, and im really hoping the "entire ending was a hallucination and shepard was actually lying in rubble the whole time" theory is correct. I didnt appreciate having to play as full paragon the whole series then picking the renegade ending just so my character doesnt die.
Overall the ending needed a slide show explaining the fates of all the main characters, just like Fallout New Vegas had.

 

[Bostur]

I think the entitlement argument is a strawman argument at it's core. Some people say that gamers are acting entitled, when in reality people are simply expressing what is on their mind.

If a consumer is dissatisfied with a product it only makes sense to express that, in private and in public. It's part of how a free market works and we shouldn't let the gaming industry get special treatment. I don't blame game companies for trying to use viral effects to their advantage, but I sometimes do blame gamers and journalists for throwing their critical mind overboard.

 

[Pumpkin_Eater]

No one batted an eye when the end of Lost or the Sopranos caused a similar reaction from the masses. The industry wants us portrayed that way to justify over the top anti-piracy measures and their war on the used market. Having a convenient way to (attempt to) deflect Mass Effect 3 criticism was a happy accident for them.

 

[Gearhead mk2]

I say as long as publishers keep charging full price for unfinished, bland, boring, multipayer-dependent "games" on a nearly medium-wide scale, yeah we have a right to complain.

 

[psicat]

Yes too many gamers act like self entitled little loudmouths, especially on the net, that no one would want to be associated with in real life. They are children that demand more for less or no money and if they don't get exactly what they want throw a fit, or decide to try to justify pirating the game.

 

[Emiscary]

Yes too many gamers act like self entitled little loudmouths, especially on the net, that no one would want to be associated with in real life. They are children that demand more for less or no money and if they don't get exactly what they want throw a fit, or decide to try to justify pirating the game.

Of course. It's insane for a fully grown consumer to want what he paid for, or ask for restitution if not. And its up to the industry to put that whiny fucker in his place when he forgets his place.

EA doesn't need kids like you (see how I just dismissively labeled you a kid based on 0 information?) defending its honor. They've got plenty of bloggers and reviewers and employees who'd be happy to tell uninformed consumers that the product they're paying for is perfectly fine and that anyone who believes different is a self obsessed 13 year old (who's probably never gotten laid).

And remember all you angry bioware fans: you're completely out of line to expect anything from the games industry. Ever. I mean who are *you*? And why do you care about *fictional* settings with *imaginary* consequences anyway? What're you, a loser? It's not like you invested *real* time and money into this series, and helped advertise it by word of mouth, and that the company exists to cater to *your* tastes but- oh wait it's exactly like that.

This whole ordeal is *NOT* the meaningless whining of a faceless customer base who'll fall back in line when the next shiny toy comes out. This is a large group of frustrated and unhappy people who knows that the games industry as it is currently set up CAN (don't tell me it can't) accommodate their wishes. And if they opt not to do so in spite of this (which let's not kid ourselves is pretty likely), that's when people get fed up with being ignored belittled and mislead and cease to be your customer base.

 

[Fr]anc[is]

I think the crux if the problem is that some people aren't understanding one point. Consumers have a right to voice their concerns and demands, even loud and obnoxious ones. The point is that EA/Bioware doesn't have to meet those demands. I don't think anyone with any sense thinks they can actually force them to fix it. But to jump all over consumers voicing their displeasure and demands is wrong. You can say they are going about it wrong, being rude and obnoxious, spamming forums, and harassing employees, that is true for some. But supply and demand is economics 101, it's how stuff works. Take that away and we really will just be bending over and letting them do whatever they want.

 

[krellen]

And complain all you want. But where the entitlement comes in is demanding they change things to suit your opinions.

I demand that they properly advertise their product. I am well within my rights to demand that. When I bought ME2, I was buying an RPG. The product delivered to me was a shooter.

 

[Phlakes]

And complain all you want. But where the entitlement comes in is demanding they change things to suit your opinions.

I demand that they properly advertise their product. I am well within my rights to demand that. When I bought ME2, I was buying an RPG. The product delivered to me was a shooter.

That's subjective. Just because you didn't see enough of what you wanted in the game doesn't mean they were misleading you. If anything, it means you bought it uninformed.

 

[Adultism]

Just like we don't OWN a xbox360 we own the right to play it until we do something that warrants Microsoft disabling our system.

Oh god, please tell me this is sarcasm. With some of the things I've seen said around here, especially on this particular topic, I just can't tell any more.

(Just in case it's not: I own my XBox, lock stock and barrel. The only thing Microsoft has a "right" to do is cut off my access to XBox Live.)

Actually they CAN disable your xbox. Deactivate console.

 

[Mr Cwtchy]

I think gamers DO act entitled. Frequently. And in an extremely arrogant and irritating manner.

Whether the complaining in the case of Mass Effect 3 is classified as being entitled, as it seems to be the 'big issue' of choice at the moment, well...
probably not.

All I know is gamers never stop complaining at companies whether the complaints are justified or not.

 

[Vegosiux]

And complain all you want. But where the entitlement comes in is demanding they change things to suit your opinions.

I demand that they properly advertise their product. I am well within my rights to demand that. When I bought ME2, I was buying an RPG. The product delivered to me was a shooter.

That's subjective. Just because you didn't see enough of what you wanted in the game doesn't mean they were misleading you. If anything, it means you bought it uninformed.

Yes, what he said is subjective, but what you said is, of course, an accurate, objective fact.

If I buy a product and the product is not what was allegedly being sold to me, then I have every right to complain, no matter what the product does.

Hell, if I buy a vacuum cleaner that was advertised to have enough power to hold a bowling ball suspended in mid-air, and it fails to do it when I try it, I've been mislead. Even if that power is most likely to just ruin my floor tiles as opposed to actually cleaning them up.

In the end, the customer is always right as long as their complaint can be followed through a logical path - I mean, complaining about ME3 because there were no giraffes in it is just insane troll logic, and the only attention that deserves is a slap with a rolled-up newspaper; but complaining about the ending being a deus ex machina is completely within reason - after all, the ME franchise was a hard science fiction franchise that stuck to set physics rules, apart from the stuff explained by mass effect/eezo technology. Some sort of a galactic entity that borders on godhood is a complete asspull.

But I'm alarmed by how the people seem to be willing to disregard valid complaints because some complaints are retarded.

I'm also alarmed by how every generation we get less gameplay for more money, but that's an entirely different can of worms. But that's why I'm keeping tabs on the BG Enhanced thing revealed yesterday, I wonder what they do with it.

 

[veloper]

I for one appreciate being warned away from bad products. Gamers can never complain loud enough.

Metacritic user scores are a more reliable indication of quality than official reviews.

 

[omega 616]

Stop thinking you can't make demands. This is how capitalism works.

Yet in the same video (or at least a very recent one) he talks about kick starter and says "even though you invest money into the game you have no say over what happens with the game".

He even says at one point "you aren't an investor" only to contradict that a few seconds later, then says "you aren't an investor" again.

Part of the problem there though is he isn't concise.

Anyway, if you want things to change follow through with boycotts, nothing else will work.

Making petitions and silly charity things to get the ending of a game changed is nothing short of petulant!

 

[Phlakes]

And complain all you want. But where the entitlement comes in is demanding they change things to suit your opinions.

I demand that they properly advertise their product. I am well within my rights to demand that. When I bought ME2, I was buying an RPG. The product delivered to me was a shooter.

That's subjective. Just because you didn't see enough of what you wanted in the game doesn't mean they were misleading you. If anything, it means you bought it uninformed.

Yes, what he said is subjective, but what you said is, of course, an accurate, objective fact.

If I buy a product and the product is not what was allegedly being sold to me, then I have every right to complain, no matter what the product does.

Hell, if I buy a vacuum cleaner that was advertised to have enough power to hold a bowling ball suspended in mid-air, and it fails to do it when I try it, I've been mislead. Even if that power is most likely to just ruin my floor tiles as opposed to actually cleaning them up.

In the end, the customer is always right as long as their complaint can be followed through a logical path - I mean, complaining about ME3 because there were no giraffes in it is just insane troll logic, and the only attention that deserves is a slap with a rolled-up newspaper; but complaining about the ending being a deus ex machina is completely within reason - after all, the ME franchise was a hard science fiction franchise that stuck to set physics rules, apart from the stuff explained by mass effect/eezo technology. Some sort of a galactic entity that borders on godhood is a complete asspull.

If a vacuum cleaner can't hold a bowling ball, that's a fact, and they just lied to you. If an ad for a game says it's a shooter RPG hybrid, and you don't think there's enough RPG, that is a valid complaint but not grounds to be making demands.

Every single person that plays the game has a different opinion, and interprets what it is differently. There is absolutely no way Bioware can "properly advertise their product" to the opinions of every consumer, so they advertise how they meant the game to be, and there's nothing wrong with that.