Humans in rpgs

[number4096]

Also,just for fun,even though it is cracked.com,i would want you want you tell me how many mistakes they did in this article regarding real history:

http://www.cracked.com/article/197_the-7-most-badass-last-stands-in-history-battle/

Also,if you think i am taking too much of your time on this thread,just tell me,i will understand.

P-s:Huge thanks for the informations thus far,i really enjoyed learning about all this.

 

[Zacharine]

More people who defeated many people at once:

Simo Haya

Hayhä used modern weapons, more specifically a sniper rifle and a machine pistol. Does not count, unless we consider all those german machine gun operators that gunned down allied troop at Normandy by the hundreds. And do we count the guys who bombed Hiroshima and Nagasagi?

Masutatsu Oyama

He was a karateka. In Karate, several 'dirty' moves are disallowed, like kicking into the groin. During the war, he used firearms.

So, does not count.

Cyrano de Bergerac

Hector Savinien de Cyrano de Bergerac (6 March 1619 ? 28 July 1655) was a French dramatist and duellist who is now best remembered for the many works of fiction which have been woven around his life story.

Although it is true that he was a popular poet and a fine swordsman who fought many duels, his abilities were greatly embellished by Edmond Rostand, the playwright of the play Cyrano de Bergerac.

William Marshall

He gained his reputation from tournaments. While at that time tournaments were dangerous staged battles, they were still usually fought 1v1 or fre--for-all format. His record is legendary: he supposedly fought in 500 such bouts in his life and never lost once.

Notice how it is never said he fought against multiple people at once. Only that he was good at winning stage battles.

Hans-Ulrich Rudel

A Stuka dive-bomber...

Really, this the best you can get? People who used modern rapid-fire firearms from ambush or sniped people. A Stuka-bomber who's most glorious achievement is living trough all those 2000+ missions. He shot down 9 planes during his entire life. The rest were ground-based targets. You give me a karateka, who fights in a stricly codified manner where dirty tricks most certainly are not approved. You give me a poet/duellist who's deeds have most likely been embellished more than those of Odysseyus. And a knight, who specialized and made his reputation on duels.

Face it, it takes either a modern firearm or a death-wish to engage more than two opponents simultaneously in a fight to the death, and survive beyond a few minutes. Why? Because we humans are surprisingly frail. A good sword strike will take out out of the fight. A dagger wound will make you scream from pain. A hit to the head does not mean a simple whiplash effect, it means getting stunned and gutted.

Which leads to Rule Zero of serious fighting: "Don't!"

Welcome to reality, kid.

 

[number4096]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUkuKtYSqJE&feature=related

I wonder how many mistakes they did here and what they got right?Regarding how real fights work?

 

[Zacharine]

Also,Musashi Miyamoto apparently once wrote a book about how to fight many opponents at once.

I think they say it on his wikipedia page.

So he wrote a book about it. Great, let me just call up Sauron and ask his opinion. Perhaps Elrond as well.

Might as well call Darth Vader while at it.

Just because it's written doesn't make it true. And just because he could write theory, does not automatically mean he could do it in practice.

I'll believe you on the case of Miyamoto the moment you give me historical evidence that he actually did fight multiple trained opponents at once, in a non-controlled environment, in a fight to the death and won.

Without any evidence at all, it shall remain in the status of heresay, folklore and exaggeration. Just like claims of him riding dragons and walking over water.

I heard from someone who studies history that if sending ten guys against one person didn't work,they poisoned his food.

And how do you think those ten persons got caught? By any change... Guards? And do you think they all went in at once rather than one after the other as the previous one failed?

It happened so often that kings started to find ways to build their antibodies against such eventualities.

Oh yes, kings fought personally against these assasins, not the half-a-zillion bodyguards surrounding them 24/7. Poison I can definately understand, poisoning his food easy in comparison of trying to get within 20 feet of the king with a weapon of any kind.

Bruce Lee also was beating people in street fights,one versus many.

And tell me, where any of these opponents actually trained? Or were they self-taught brawlers. Even with a year of training, in a purely hand-to-hand combat you can defeat pretty much any untrained lout as long as their innitiate physical advantage is not too great.

With a decade of training you can wipe the floor with half a dozen of them.

But if any of them are even slightly trained or trained and armed, it suddenly becomes an entirely different story.

Spartans

Fought as an army and in Phalanx formations.

and shaolin monks were also renowned for taking on more people than themselves.

Again, how many of these opponents were even rudimentarily trained and properly armed?

 

[number4096]

I'm starting to get your point better SakSak,if one person was capable of defeating many opponents at the same time,later on people would learn how to fight like this guy and adapt their weaponry and techniques accordingly.

So the next time that same guy would go to battle,his style of combat would stop being a secret and everyone around him would have become just as capable as him and therefore he would stop being a one man army.

In other words,if he learns how to fight extraordinarily well,what would prevent others from learning the same thing,all becoming his equal in the process?

 

[Zacharine]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUkuKtYSqJE&feature=related

I wonder how many mistakes they did here and what they got right?Regarding how real fights work?

Had that been real-world physics, he would hav die at the mark of 33second in to the video. Instead of using his spear as pole-vaulting equipment, it would have snapped under his weight. At which point he would have been gutted.

Had he managed to kick off (with the spear made from the wood Imaginaris Unobtanius), he's have hit the first on the chest with his legs. They would have both fallen down. At which point he would have been gutted, since he's on the gorund, defenseless.

Assuming for the moment that Newton's laws regarding momentum and conservation of energy strangled themselves and he got ahead with what he seemingly did, he would have broken his spear (again) with that super-strike to the ground.

Again assuming the mythical Imaginaris Unobtanius wood as it's material, the first soldier he struck to the arm would have simply shrugged it off and gutted him.

Assuming he could hit stronger than three men combined and that armor all the mooks wear is in fact cursed to take extra damage, the swords he clashed with would have cut his spear in half. Unarmed, he would have been gutted.

Again, his broad strikes would not have penetrated the body armor of those soldiers even if we gave him three days of unopposed hacking to do it. At most he might manage to break a rib or two with a luckly strike to a dented armour. No, the broad strike would have been ignored or blocked and he would have been gutted.

And then at 44 second mark, it just get's plain ridiculous as he apparently turns around at considerable fractions of the speed of sound, several times, without any ill effects to him or his weapon. Okay, let's forget Friction exists either.

And at 52 second mark, when he uses the spear like a giant spring, even internal consistency flies out the window (remember, at the beginning he used it as a rigid version of a pole-vault).

At this point, even my considerable tolerance for JRPGs and Anime get's stretched to the limit and I cannot watch any more as an indescribable need to mutilate the makers of that abomination, in the name of Realism, tries to take over.

 

[Zacharine]

I'm starting to get your point better SakSak,if one person was capable of defeating many opponents at the same time,later on people would learn how to fight like this guy and adapt their weaponry and techniques accordigly

You completely miss the point: If any of the enemies is trained and armed, the guy fighting multiple opponents will be crying for his mother within 30 seconds and bleeding to death within 3 minutes. There is no second chance. No need to analyze the style he fights with, because no real style can fight against multiple even distantly as trained opponents that are armed and after your blood. There is only slightly delaying the inevitable (and hoping whatever few minutes you buy will be enough for those you are commiting a suicide for) or finding some way to run away as fast as you can, begging for gods that they didn't bring ranged weapon to shoot you in the back with.

 

[number4096]

One badass can beat an entire riot of untrained people on his own,but a badass fighting against other badasses is merely one more soldier.

I guess Zhao yun may be able to beat a thousand mooks,but if the mooks have the same training as Zhao Yun then the guy is mincemeat.

Though i still think that if you can make the opponents get in each others way in some way,you can get an advantage over them by making them a nuisance to each other,though that would work only if they were disorganised.So your point still holds.

 

[number4096]

SakSak,i want you to review Devil May Cry,just to see you rip it apart.

You are completely hilarious and absolutely right when you make fun of something.

Imaginaris Unobtanius,priceless.

 

[number4096]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szpI-Mk3-rU

this is the last video game opening i want you to review,coul you tell me what is wrong with it?

 

[Zacharine]

One badass can beat an entire riot of untrained people on his own,but a badass fighting against other badasses is merely one more soldier.

This is closer to it. But the mob doesn't have to be even badasses. It's enough that they are badasses-to-be-(training-still-incomplete). Because all it takes to take the badass down is a single bleeding cut, single hamstrung heel, single arrow to the shoulder and he is at the mercy of that mob. A man only has two legs and two arms. There are only so many attacks that you can dodge or block at the same time without giving an opening any somewhat trained mook will instantly capitulate upon. And then it's over.

All that is needed is enough knowhow to make sure the badass cannot dominate you as he wants to. Any resistance is enough. Any movement that he is forced to respond to is enough. And any weapon that can in a single strike cause noticeable damage is enough. Quantity will take care of the rest.

 

[number4096]

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Tactical.htm

i want to hear your opinion of it.

 

[Zacharine]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szpI-Mk3-rU

this is the last video game opening i want you to review,coul you tell me what is wrong with it?

A flying horse and three-bladed sword-gloves that glow?

Okay, I might do that, just as soon Reality calms down and stops crying from all the abuse the first 15 seconds heaped upon her.

No, sorry, the next ten seconds gave her a cardiac arrest. 'Divided by zero' warning issued. We are attempting resucitation, please hold...

We have her back. Damages... We only managed to lost the Andromeda galaxy. No biggie.

Howevfer, for future reference, I must ask you keep such abominations away form my dear Reality. She needs your belief and can take only so much suspension of that belief, you know.

 

[number4096]

This is something Grand_Arcana had linked earlier on the thread,i've readed it all.

I want to know what do you think this article got wrong.

 

[number4096]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szpI-Mk3-rU

this is the last video game opening i want you to review,coul you tell me what is wrong with it?

A flying horse and three-bladed sword-gloves that glow?

Okay, I might do that, just as soon Reality calms down and stops crying from all the abuse the first 15 seconds heaped upon her.

No, sorry, the next ten seconds gave her a cardiac arrest. 'Divided by zero' warning issued. We are attempting resucitation, please hold...

We have her back. Damages... We only managed to lost the Andromeda galaxy. No biggie.

Howevfer, for future reference, I must ask you keep such abominations away form my dear Reality. She needs your belief and can take only so much suspension of that belief, you know.

I've just cried of laughter,and am still laughing at the moment,whenever i am in a bad mood,i will ask you to review a video game's realism.

There are sites aimed at humor that didn't made me laugh that much,you should do game reviews like Yahtzee with Zero Punctuation,but your reviews would focus on realism,or the lack thereof,in video games.

I would watch it all the time.

I think Imaginaris Unobtanius will become a meme soon.

 

[Zacharine]

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Tactical.htm

i want to hear your opinion of it.

The ARMA actually get's most of their stuff right. They sometimes forget some details when they consider their conclusions, or oversimplify matters (sometimes entirely necessary to arrive at any conclusion), but their analysis and descriptions are some of the best you can find on the net for medieval and renessaince weaponry and combat. There are flaws there, but they are nothing major. Some are even arguably more along the lines of preferences and applications of styles rather than real flaws.

The actual specified article, about tactical training and circumstances... Not hype. Not exaggeration. They hit upon several core aspects that all weapons share: Environment, situational advantages, methods subservient to goals. Their examples of fighting against multiple people are grounded in reality: only way to survive is to dominate the group (requires significant skill and ability advantage) or fight solely one on one in a consecutive manner.

Of course, all the tactical thinking in the world will not help without training and physical conditioning.

 

[number4096]

Damn,even after typing my last post,i re-readed your review of Sengoku Basara and choked of laughter.You and Yahtzee should team up.

 

[number4096]

You must still admit that someone who knows what he is doing can take down many opponents at the same time.Though he shouldn't make a habit out of it.

Someone who takes down many people at the same time is impressive because it is rare,for a reason.Just don't make it your first option.

It also comes back to what i said earlier about making the opponents get in each other's way,if you can use areas and tactics to your advantage,their numbers will not help them.Just hope none of them is better at this than you.And never rush in,this is just ridiculous and if it works damsel reality will have a cardiac arrest.

 

[mindlessvulgarity]

I just think you must have far too much free time to give this much consideration to how the human race should be portrayed in RPG's.

 

[Zacharine]

You must still admit that someone who knows what he is doing can take down many opponents at the same time.

If they are significantly lesserly trained (And I do mean significantly. A decade of a gap is not enough, if those mooks have even a year of training) and of lower physical conditioning, or unarmed with actually dangerous weapons. And lack the common sense to work as a group. But other than that, yeah.

Someone who takes down many people at the same time is impressive because it is rare,for a reason.

In a mock fight it is rare. (EDIT: or in an exhibition match or a martial arts tournament) In a real fight, against trained and armed opponents, it is mythical and stuff of legends.

It also comes back to what i said earlier about making the opponents get in each other's way,if you can use areas and tactics to your advantage,their numbers will not help them.Just hope none of them is better at this than you.

And they never realize that they can simply tire you out by working with only a small group at a time while others rest or distract you as one person goes for the ranged weapon.

Remember, in the example ARMA gives, there are no bows taken into consideration. They are not training against each other with leathal weapons, the training swords hurt some but they are bruises only and nothing on the order of magnitude a cut from a real sword or a stab from a real knife does. As I said, they tend to overlook some things in their considerations.