"I always let the Vanguard die."

[Artemicion]

NOTE: I DO NOT ENDORSE LETTING THE VANGUARD DIE. I DO NOT SUPPORT IT. STOP THINKING I DO. READ, READ, READ, READ, READ.

Has anyone else noticed this trend in ME3's multiplayer? When the vanguard goes down, they seem to be substantially less likely to be picked up. It's not because of bad teammates or because they're in a troublesome area (though that can often be true), it's because vanguards are annoying as all hell.

Usually a vanguard player is the standard human and they'll spam charge and nova until everything around them is dead. The issue is they'll charge any enemy - so that sniper you've been slowly picking the shields at and are ready to start doing some serious damage? The team vanguard is more than happy to help you out with that. Finally kick the barriers off of that Banshee? Here comes the vanguard. They'll usually lead the team by around 20k points on a bronze challenge.

I don't generally subscribe to the "let the vanguard die" meta game, but I just got out of a match where I gave it a go. I felt terrible about it, but I ended up doing a mark better than him. Plus, I actually had fun playing while he was down, without the constant killsteals from him (though the infiltrator on the team got in quite a few himself, the sneaky bastard). It's not something that I'll make a habit of, but it was made quite clear that the vanguard class is a broken, overpowered character.

So, Escapists, my question is this: Do you let the vanguard die? If not, what tactics do you adopt to stay competitive with one?

 

[DustyDrB]

It's probably not that, really. What makes a Vanguard so fun is the high risk-high reward style of it. That means you're taking chances all the time (or should be). So if you die as one, the other players may not be in a position to revive you without getting themselves killed.

And if you're angry about Vanguards "kill stealing" (it's kill helping, damnit!), you have to realize that survival for us is all about staying on the move. The charge brings back our barriers. Nova depletes the barrier. If they "steal" your kill, then deal with it.

 

[Swny Nerdgasm]

It's probably not that, really. What makes a Vanguard so fun is the high risk-high reward style of it. That means you're taking chances all the time (or should be). So if you die as one, the other players may not be in a position to revive you without getting themselves killed.

And if you're angry about Vanguards "kill stealing" (it's kill helping, damnit!), you have to realize that survival for us is all about staying on the move. The charge brings back our barriers. Nova depletes the barrier. If they "steal" your kill, then deal with it.

Basically this, it's the Vanguard's job to be in the front lines blasting shit in the face, I mean look up the name of the class. I never played one because the way the class is described doesn't seem like it's my favorite play-style, but I never let any of my teammates die unless it's impossible to reach them

 

[Samurai Silhouette]

If there's a Vanguard on my team, I just AFK and let them do all the work.

 

[Shock and Awe]

I always play as Vanguards, you know why? Because they are effective thats why. Anyone who knows how to play the class can easily out do almost anything else. The entire goal of the Vanguard is to get in and among the enemy and be the bludgeon and distraction while infiltrators and soldiers deal damage from distance, accompanied by support classes such as Engineers or adepts its an unstoppable combination. Don't get mad at Vanguards for doing what they are supposed to. As long as they don't try to take on a boss or turret singlehanded they'll be fine.

 

[Artemicion]

There are some excellent points here that I'd like to touch upon:

High risk/high reward: Given the vanguard's up-close-and-personal playstyle, it only makes sense that their going down may put them in a hard-to-reach situation. What I have noticed is that players will willfully walk past a downed vanguard and continue the good fight.

Kill stealing versus kill helping: I can definitely appreciate the fine line between these two, but charging a single enemy when a teammate has definitely got it covered could almost be considered rude. There are few things more frustrating than having an enemy lined up for the kill and immediately tossed aside by a charge or nova. If a vanguard decides to charge an opponent with a modicum of health that is already being targeted is just dandy. I don't mean for it to sound like vanguards should be holding themselves back for only full health targets or anything, but they do tend to walk on both sides of that fine line.

Oh, and the "deal with it" argument doesn't hold water. Not here, not ever. You should always be mindful of those you play with as a common courtesy.

It's a team game/scores don't matter: Different strokes for different players. I generally go into quickplay alone, so I play for the scoreboard to keep myself entertained. Even if you don't, however, the scoreboard is a good indicator of each member's performance. I had at least one game with one vanguard who was leading the scoreboard by a sizable amount, but was a much lower N7 rank than the rest of us. One of the others quipped "Vanguard's leading the boards. Not because he's good. Because he's a vanguard".
It's also a good indicator that the class can easily take the "team" out of "team game" and turn it into "vanguard and some blokes" game.


I find that a lot of these issues are only prevalent with the human vanguard, though. Asari and Drell are pretty uncommon to see, and I believe they tend to perform on the same level as the rest of the group.

I do hope you guys realize this isn't a hate speech for the class at all - I'm actually very fond of it. But I'm noticing that a lot of people don't care for those who pick it and will willfully let the downed vanguards die.

 

[DustyDrB]

Oh, and the "deal with it" argument doesn't hold water. Not here, not ever. You should always be mindful of those you play with as a common courtesy.

Poor choice of words on me. It was meant to relate to my previous point in that post, which was charge is integral to a Vanguard's survival due to the attack recharging your barriers. It's actually both an offensive and defensive move. My heart actually sinks a bit when someone downs a target I was about to charge, because then I'm standing out in the open with no barriers. Vanguards aren't trying to steal your kill. They attack, do a ton of damage, then charge again once their barriers are down. The person they charge may be someone you were about to kill, but you just have to understand that's the cornerstone of their playstyle.


The reason why you see human vanguards doing this more is because they are the only ones with the Nova ability. This ability does a ton of damage in an area, but also depletes the Vanguard's barrier (either all the way or 50%, depending on how leveled the ability is). If you use Nova and know there will still be enemies around you once you've done it, then you'll likely have a target picked out to charge as part of your "escape plan".

And really, this is part of the reason why it's co-operative and not competitive. Most support classes won't rack up the points (I certainly don't when I use my Salarian Engineer, but I know I'm contributing greatly by distracting tough enemies with my decoy). People know when you contribute, even if it doesn't show on the scoreboard.

 

[Artemicion]

No hard feelings for the misinterpretation, mate.

I actually hadn't given much consideration into the "high risk" portion of the vanguard as far as jumping in, going nova, and realizing there's nothing to kill nearby but there's enemies with guns about three metres off. It's an interesting perspective. Thank you for bringing that up.

 

[endtherapture]

Vanguards are just annoying.

Sure they are effective, but one on our team once was just stupid, he was ruining everyones chances of tech/biotic combos, ignoring objectives, not helping anyone up if they went down, staggering Guardians whilst I was trying to snipe through their little slot, ignoring the Atlas, charging Phantoms head on, and for some reason, using a Widow. It was annoying so whenever he went down, we left him to die.

 

[Elamdri]

The issue is they'll charge any enemy - so that sniper you've been slowly picking the shields at and are ready to start doing some serious damage? The team vanguard is more than happy to help you out with that. Finally kick the barriers off of that Banshee? Here comes the vanguard. They'll usually lead the team by around 20k points on a bronze challenge.

I'm SO "That guy" hahaha.

My thing is this. It's my job as Vanguard to go Apeshit on whatever decides to poke it's nasty alien head up out of it's hole. If it's shooting at me or if it's been knocked down/knocked off the platform by me, well then it's not shooting at you. So...you're welcome.

About the only time I have ever been killed as a Vanguard once you hit that point where you can charge-nova into infinity is when either

A: I get that rare insta-gib from a Banshee/Atlas

B: My charge lags out.

And you know what? I'm a team player. If someone goes down, I do my best to get them up. After all, I'm the best option to get to them quickly, disable the enemies around them and survive long enough to rez. You have an objective that needs defending? I'm on it. I can distract the entire enemy army by myself for days. DAYS.

My best match ever was on Tuchanka, wave 10 we had to defend a control point, and a banshee took out my entire team in about 30 seconds. So I charged in, nova'd the banshee, and then started charging back and forth between the two berserkers and the banshee novaing the crap out of them. Finally took them out, then started working on the ravagers while trying to stay in the circle to fill up the bar. Finally got the ravagers down and managed to get the bar filled with 20 seconds to spare. What did my team do when they got back up? Started shooting me. >.>

Jerks.

 

[TsunamiWombat]

The Scoreboard is irrelivant, it doesn't affect your EXP or Credit gain at the end of the match. So...who gives a shit?

 

[Elamdri]

The Scoreboard is irrelivant...So...who gives a shit?

The butthurt?

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

I can understand why people would let Vanguards die, no one likes getting their kills stolen, or looking bad compared to someone else, but it is a serious dick move, Vanguards have just as much right to charge and nova and engineers have the right to set up turrets and overload barriers.

In the end it comes down to butthurt over the scoreboard, I kinda wish that instead of showing individual scores, it either just showed you your own or the team score

 

[5ilver]

I've never understood the point of the class myself. It was the first class I tried out in ME2 because it seemed like the smartest choice- in a kingdom of cover-based shooting, surely the charging lunatic is king?

And then I died over and over again and had to use an assault rifle and shockwave for the rest of the game
I can't imagine why someone would do this to themselves willingly but I will definitely show them the mercy of not giving them a revive.

 

[Elamdri]

I've never understood the point of the class myself. It was the first class I tried out in ME2 because it seemed like the smartest choice- in a kingdom of cover-based shooting, surely the charging lunatic is king?

And then I died over and over again and had to use an assault rifle and shockwave for the rest of the game
I can't imagine why someone would do this to themselves willingly but I will definitely show them the mercy of not giving them a revive.

Biotic charge refreshes your shields, does huge damage, and has a knockback. Properly talented, with a heavy pistol, a vanguard can charge every 3 seconds. As long as you charge every time it comes off cooldown you are nigh unkillable. Nova then allows you to use your shields to do damage. Since you can refresh your shields every three seconds, you become an unstoppable wrecking ball.

 

[Elijin]

Vanguard irritate me due to more often than not, I find the people using them meet the following conditions:

DONT use risk assessment, just use 'I should spam charge, always, Yes. This is a thing I should do.' And then promptly die 10 seconds into any wave 7+

Completely ignore objectives, even if its convenient for them to get due to positioning.

Except to be revived, after getting themselves killed in accordance with the first point, and consequently being abusive or resentful, if no one enters the kill zone to risk everything at reviving them.

Ignore reviving other team members, consistently. As that would mean stopping next to you, and that would mean not charging for a few seconds.

Generally act in a manner with voice or visual indicators, which suggest this is no longer a team game, its just them carrying everyone else, and everyone else is a terrible person for not picking the same class.

So in short, my experience with Vanguards has been awful, and Im not exactly quick to put myself in danger to revive them. That said, if there is no risk, I never spurn the opportunity to revive other players.

Oh and as for the scoreboard issues, which I dont super care about, because its a group score that matters anyway, Vanguard isnt everything, I've held 20K+ leads with the Soldier and the Infiltrator, its about playing your class well, not being the 'best class'

 

[hazabaza1]

It's probably because they charge all the way into the opposite side of the map and then die. Same with low level Krogan on Silver.
Also, Zeel's back! Yaaaaay!