I don't understand Spock/Vulcans as depicted

[happyninja42]

Ok so, according to the Star Trek shows (I'm not touching any of the novels because they're basically fan fiction), Vulcans are naturally WAAAY more emotional than humans. So emotional in fact, that they were almost mindless savages until they developed a code of behaviour to yoke their baser nature, allowing them to thrive and prosper.

Ok, fine, I don't have any issue with that basic premise.


Enter Spock, a Half Human/Vulcan. In every description I've seen, the reason Spock has so much trouble is that he is half human, and thus making him less able to control his emotions.

*blinks* Bwuh? That doesn't make sense. If he's half human, then that means his genetic makeup is half as Emotionally Crazy as that of a full blooded Vulcan. Since humans are less emotional than Vulcans, he should have an EASIER time keeping himself in check. The only rationale I've ever heard to explain why being half human makes him more unstable, is that it means he is less logical, and thus unable to control his emotions.

*blinks* Uh, so...the Vulcan logic thing is genetic now? Are they actually trying to say that Vulcan's are --genetically-- more logical now? That it has nothing to do with adopting a mode of behaviour and outlook on life, to bring their emotions to heel, that it's simply in their DNA?!? Sorry but I call BS on that. If the Vulcan logic is a way of life, then there isn't any reason others could as easily adopt it for their own purposes. Hell it would probably be EASIER for them to shake off the coils of their emotions, since their emotions are WAY less intense and unstable, compared to a Vulcan.

 

[hazabaza1]

It's space logic.
Space logic don't gotta explain shit.

 

[Dangit2019]

It's space logic.
Space logic don't gotta explain shit.

Spoiler

OT: Your entire predicament centers on confusing morality with emotions. Seriously, they are not two of the same.

 

[happyninja42]

It's space logic.
Space logic don't gotta explain shit.

Spoiler

OT: Your entire predicament centers on confusing morality with emotions. Seriously, they are not two of the same.

Um, no it has nothing to do with morality vs emotions. Not once did I talk about their moral superiority. I'm talking about how multiple times, over multiple iterations of the Star Trek tv shows, they talk about how humans are less logical because they are human. Not less moral, but less capable to divorce themselves from their emotions. The reason they give for why the Vulcans can do this, is their Uber Logic Way of Life. They aren't saying "We're better than you because we're logical." they repeatedly imply "You're incapable of being as logical as us, because you're human." Which implies it's a genetic thing, not a personal code of behaviour.

 

[shrekfan246]

The only rationale I've ever heard to explain why being half human makes him more unstable, is that it means he is less logical, and thus unable to control his emotions.

If the Vulcan logic is a way of life, then there isn't any reason others could as easily adopt it for their own purposes.

That's the point.

Vulcans spent generations teaching themselves to box off their emotions and subscribe purely to cold, hard logic. Something every other race in the Galaxy hadn't done. It's not that other races physically are incapable of being as logical and unemotional as Vulcans (though honestly, humans are pretty shite at controlling our emotions when things really get down to it), it's that the Vulcans have perfected the ability to shelter themselves from their emotions, and it took them so long to do it that it's simply illogical to imagine that a simple, emotional human would be able to do the same right on the spot.

 

[Little Woodsman]

Ok so, according to the Star Trek shows (I'm not touching any of the novels because they're basically fan fiction), Vulcans are naturally WAAAY more emotional than humans. So emotional in fact, that they were almost mindless savages until they developed a code of behaviour to yoke their baser nature, allowing them to thrive and prosper.

Ok, fine, I don't have any issue with that basic premise.


Enter Spock, a Half Human/Vulcan. In every description I've seen, the reason Spock has so much trouble is that he is half human, and thus making him less able to control his emotions.

*blinks* Bwuh? That doesn't make sense. If he's half human, then that means his genetic makeup is half as Emotionally Crazy as that of a full blooded Vulcan. Since humans are less emotional than Vulcans, he should have an EASIER time keeping himself in check. The only rationale I've ever heard to explain why being half human makes him more unstable, is that it means he is less logical, and thus unable to control his emotions.

*blinks* Uh, so...the Vulcan logic thing is genetic now? Are they actually trying to say that Vulcan's are --genetically-- more logical now? That it has nothing to do with adopting a mode of behaviour and outlook on life, to bring their emotions to heel, that it's simply in their DNA?!? Sorry but I call BS on that. If the Vulcan logic is a way of life, then there isn't any reason others could as easily adopt it for their own purposes. Hell it would probably be EASIER for them to shake off the coils of their emotions, since their emotions are WAY less intense and unstable, compared to a Vulcan.

I've never heard anyone take what was presented in the shows as Vulcans being more emotional, just that early in their history while they were guided by emotions they had conflicts and wars that almost led to the destruction of their race.
IIRC, there's even an episode of TNG where Counselor Troi states that Vulcans are emotionally the same as other races.
I've always understood that Vulcans are supposed to have the level of emotional control that they do because they are steeped in the philosophy from birth, and that the philosophy is so deeply ingrained in their culture that they even have words for concepts of the philosophy that have no parallel in the language used in the commonality of the Federation.

Now, all that being said, this *also* makes *no* sense for Spock having more difficulties--he was raised on Vulcan, equally steeped in the culture & language. It *could* be argued that exposure to his mother from an early age might have had a detrimental effect on his conforming to Vulcan philosophy/codes, though this doesn't make a lot of sense either, since his mother apparently moved to Vulcan specifically to study the philosophy and culture.

What I've always picked up is that the overwhelming majority of Vulcans are racist jerks, convinced of their own superiority because they believe that the code they follow is the penultimate philosophy, and that all other races are inferior to them because they do not follow the same philosophy. This bleeds over in to their treatment of Spock--he's really just as good at controlling his emotions as other Vulcans, but other Vulcans assume he is inferior and treat him as such. It's clearly stated and shown that Spock was bullied as a child because of his mixed racial heritage, not exactly the actions of a logical/unemotional group of schoolmates.

Boy, for someone who's supposedly not that much in to Star Trek I sure had a lot to say on the subject....

 

[BeeGeenie]

The only rationale I've ever heard to explain why being half human makes him more unstable, is that it means he is less logical, and thus unable to control his emotions.

If the Vulcan logic is a way of life, then there isn't any reason others could as easily adopt it for their own purposes.

That's the point.

Vulcans spent generations teaching themselves to box off their emotions and subscribe purely to cold, hard logic. Something every other race in the Galaxy hadn't done. It's not that other races physically are incapable of being as logical and unemotional as Vulcans (though honestly, humans are pretty shite at controlling our emotions when things really get down to it), it's that the Vulcans have perfected the ability to shelter themselves from their emotions, and it took them so long to do it that it's simply illogical to imagine that a simple, emotional human would be able to do the same right on the spot.

But if it's all about spending a lifetime of training and learning emotion-control techniques, then it shouldn't matter that Spock is half human. I think Happyninja's kind of got a point. There definitely seems to be some inconsistency in the mythos. :/

 

[Lieju]

*blinks* Uh, so...the Vulcan logic thing is genetic now? Are they actually trying to say that Vulcan's are --genetically-- more logical now? That it has nothing to do with adopting a mode of behaviour and outlook on life, to bring their emotions to heel, that it's simply in their DNA?!? Sorry but I call BS on that. If the Vulcan logic is a way of life, then there isn't any reason others could as easily adopt it for their own purposes. Hell it would probably be EASIER for them to shake off the coils of their emotions, since their emotions are WAY less intense and unstable, compared to a Vulcan.

Well, since humans are different from Vulcans, the techniques they teach Vulcans for controlling their emotions might not work as well with humans or half-humans. That's how I always understood it.

Spock tried to ignore his human side and act like he was fully Vulcan, instead of acknowledging he had both sides in him.

 

[oreso]

I always interpreted the comments on Spock's emotionalness and connecting it to his human side to be either banter or racism.

I mean, Tuvok, Sarek and T'Pol can be just as emotional when it comes down to it.

 

[Realitycrash]

You know what bothers me about Vulcans? That they say 'logical' all the time, but clearly mean 'rational'. Logic has nothing to do with it. Logic is a system designed to determine what necessarily must be the outcome of a certain set of premises, if anything necessarily at all will be.

Thus, every time Spock says 'the logical choice' he takes for granted that everyone uses the same premises (even his opponents, as when he judges others to be 'illogical') as he does.
What he should say is 'The rational choice', which is still based on premises, but in general makes a whole lot more sense as it implies that he is working from a subjective set of premises.

And hell, it's even unclear if he means Theoretical Rationality (What one ought to believe), Practical Rationality (Why one out to believe something) and Instrumental Rationality (The most efficient way of realizing one's goals). Most often, it is Instrumental, but at times he clearly blurs the line (like when he call others illogical because they do not share the same mindset as he does).

 

[thiosk]

Throw in that the romulans are vulcan offshoots with a severe roman fetish; but they don't seem to be giving in to the depravity of Slaanesh- she who thirsts.

All of them are little more than heretics and aliens in the eyes of the god emperor, and are thus best studied through a las scope.

I might be getting my sci fi jumbled here. Forgive me, I had to do a stint at the local particle accelerator yesterday.

 

[Hagi]

Haven't really watched much Star Trek at all,

but wasn't the whole thing not that Spock actually was more emotionally unstable but rather that some of his people regarded him as such, because you know, racism (or specieism I guess).

Which granted, does kinda go against the whole Vulcans being awesome at logic thing since racism isn't exactly the most logical thing to practice.

 

[Olas]

You're confusing stronger emotions with less controllable emotions. Even if they're emotions are stronger Vulcans seem to be able to control them in ways no human can. If Spock is half Vulcan he has even stronger emotions than a normal human, but less control than a full blooded Vulcan, putting him in an uneasy situation.

That's how I see it at least.

 

[Ieyke]

Basically everything you need to know:

"Vulcans are capable of experiencing extremely powerful emotions (including becoming enraged enough to kill their closest friend); for this reason, they have developed techniques to suppress them. T'Pol once stated that paranoia and homicidal rage were common on Vulcan prior to the adoption of Surak's code of emotional control. In the original series episode "The Savage Curtain", Spock meets Surak and displays emotion, for which Surak reprimands him, and he asks forgiveness.

While most Vulcans do maintain control over their emotions, the advanced ritual of Kolinahr is intended to purge all remaining vestigial emotion; the word also refers to the discipline by which this state is maintained. Only the most devoted and trained Vulcan students attain Kolinahr. In Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Spock was unable to complete this ritual after receiving powerful telepathic signals from space and experiencing strong emotions as a result. The Vulcan masters conducting the trials concluded that since Spock's human blood was touched by these messages from space, he could not have achieved Kolinahr, and the ritual was halted."

So basically the Vulcans are super emotional, but they have a way to completely purge themselves of emotion that only works on full Vulcans. Thus it does not work on Spock.

 

[Da Orky Man]

This is how I look at it:

The whole thing about humans being unable to be as controlled as Vulcans is, first, probably bollocks. There are always going to be exceptions. However, I will say that its probably more due to the Vulcan culture and philosophy than anything genetic. This would initially seem to mean that Spock ought to be just fine, despite being half human. However, since the Vulcan philosophy was, oddly enough, developed for by Vulcans for Vulcans, the added human genetics may mess that up a bit, so the cultural effect isn't nearly as strongly seen s it is in pure blood Vulcans, so its harder for him to keep a lid on it all.

 

[Angelous Wang]

Could be less to do with emotions and more to do with impulse.

Vulcans might go off bigger/worse than Humans. But Humans might go off easier/more than Vulcans.

So when you are half and half you go off bigger and easier.

Which would explain why Spock has a harder time because Vulcan training would not cover the things that set Humans off but don't set Vulcans off.

 

[Axolotl]

Star Trek is a series that has lasted almost 50 years has had five tv shows, a dozen films with dozens of writers and various different producers/editors/whatever.

There is no diamond hard consistent explanation as to how things work.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

The only rationale I've ever heard to explain why being half human makes him more unstable, is that it means he is less logical, and thus unable to control his emotions.

If the Vulcan logic is a way of life, then there isn't any reason others could as easily adopt it for their own purposes.

That's the point.

Vulcans spent generations teaching themselves to box off their emotions and subscribe purely to cold, hard logic. Something every other race in the Galaxy hadn't done. It's not that other races physically are incapable of being as logical and unemotional as Vulcans (though honestly, humans are pretty shite at controlling our emotions when things really get down to it), it's that the Vulcans have perfected the ability to shelter themselves from their emotions, and it took them so long to do it that it's simply illogical to imagine that a simple, emotional human would be able to do the same right on the spot.

There may still be a genetic component. Vulcans are low level psychics, it's how stuff like the mind meld works. Humans are not. The ability to totally bottle their emotions may have a genetic component related to the psychic abilities.

Besides, I don't remember Spock having much difficulty with his emotions in the show. In the Abrams movies, sure. But in the show he started out being Mr. stone cold logic, figuring out a nice balance of logic and emotion by the end of the original movies. That might have had something to do with his human heritage, but probably more because he had cultural contact with at least one human (his mother) from a very young age than because of anything genetic.