I don't understand tipping culture...

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

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You know what? Screw it. I am right, you are wrong, and I've already given plenty of reasons in this thread as to why that any halfway reasonable person would have agreed with by now, in fact would have agreed with a long time ago. You just don't want to admit it.

Yea, keep telling yourself that. You want to tell others to " get the balls" but you wouldn't do that yourself. I am not sure there is anyone who would agree they should starve and become homeless to attempt to accomplish long term goals that may or may not happen within their lifetime. That would just be stupid.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Yea, keep telling yourself that. You want to tell others to " get the balls" but you wouldn't do that yourself. I am not sure there is anyone who would agree they should starve and become homeless to attempt to accomplish long term goals that may or may not happen within their lifetime. That would just be stupid.

All the people who have gone on strike, formed Unions and so on and continue to do so who have done just that would disagree with you. People have sacrificed their own comfort, security, and even their own well being countless times to get what they want, and I have no doubt you know it.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Yea, keep telling yourself that. You want to tell others to " get the balls" but you wouldn't do that yourself. I am not sure there is anyone who would agree they should starve and become homeless to attempt to accomplish long term goals that may or may not happen within their lifetime. That would just be stupid.

All the people who have gone on strike, formed Unions and so on and continue to do so who have done just that would disagree with you.

I don't know about your country, but that hasn't happened in the US in my lifetime. The republican party has demonized Unions to the point that it's almost a curse word. Work relations haven't been this bad since the 19th century. There have been strikes, but they've been carried out by pre-existing unions, and those are fewer and farther between every year.

 

[immortalfrieza]

I don't know about your country, but that hasn't happened in the US in my lifetime. The republican party has demonized Unions to the point that it's almost a curse word. Work relations haven't been this bad since the 19th century. There have been strikes, but they've been carried out by pre-existing unions, and those are fewer and farther between every year.

I'm talking about the U.S. and lately it's been happening with the fast food industry a lot.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Yea, keep telling yourself that. You want to tell others to " get the balls" but you wouldn't do that yourself. I am not sure there is anyone who would agree they should starve and become homeless to attempt to accomplish long term goals that may or may not happen within their lifetime. That would just be stupid.

All the people who have gone on strike, formed Unions and so on and continue to do so who have done just that would disagree with you. People have sacrificed their own comfort, security, and even their own well being countless times to get what they want, and I have no doubt you know it.

Strikes only work when they don't get fired and starve to death for striking. Strikes do not work when they either 1) close shop and sell out to someone else like Hostess did 2) Close shop and move away entirely or 3) they just fire all employees who participate in such and hire new ones. Employers in Texas, for example will flat out tell you if they find out someone is participating in a union they will be fired. You DO understand what a "right to work state" is don't you?

Sacrificing comfort and security is not what you are asking of these people. They already do not have "comfort and security" those things are considered luxury. You cannot afford comfort and security on a servers pay EVEN with tips. What you are proposing is them not having food and an efficiency apartment in a high crime neighborhood, because that is what they have to lose here on their current pay including tips.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I don't know about your country, but that hasn't happened in the US in my lifetime. The republican party has demonized Unions to the point that it's almost a curse word. Work relations haven't been this bad since the 19th century. There have been strikes, but they've been carried out by pre-existing unions, and those are fewer and farther between every year.

I'm talking about the U.S. and lately it's been happening with the fast food industry a lot.

Has it actually been fast food workers, though? Because all I've heard about are farm hands working for the farms that supply the fast food restaurants. Typically people who harvest tomatos, for some reason.

 

[immortalfrieza]

I don't know about your country, but that hasn't happened in the US in my lifetime. The republican party has demonized Unions to the point that it's almost a curse word. Work relations haven't been this bad since the 19th century. There have been strikes, but they've been carried out by pre-existing unions, and those are fewer and farther between every year.

I'm talking about the U.S. and lately it's been happening with the fast food industry a lot.

Has it actually been fast food workers, though? Because all I've heard about are farm hands working for the farms that supply the fast food restaurants. Typically people who harvest tomatos, for some reason.

Take a look here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-57596952/will-fast-food-protests-spur-higher-minimum-wage/

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I don't know about your country, but that hasn't happened in the US in my lifetime. The republican party has demonized Unions to the point that it's almost a curse word. Work relations haven't been this bad since the 19th century. There have been strikes, but they've been carried out by pre-existing unions, and those are fewer and farther between every year.

I'm talking about the U.S. and lately it's been happening with the fast food industry a lot.

Has it actually been fast food workers, though? Because all I've heard about are farm hands working for the farms that supply the fast food restaurants. Typically people who harvest tomatos, for some reason.

Take a look here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-57596952/will-fast-food-protests-spur-higher-minimum-wage/

That's surprising, although only two of the protests happened in a "right to work" state -- the better term for which is "at will." As in, your employer can legally fire you for any reason or no reason. They're called "right to work" because it's illegal to be required to join a union in those states. Of those, Michigan's law /just/ took effect, so people may not be used to it, and the version Kansas has is an amendment to the State constitution from 1958, which is very different from the ones other states have, in that it doesn't make it so you can be fired for no reason whatsoever, and in fact specifically prohibits employers from firing workers for unionizing.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I don't know about your country, but that hasn't happened in the US in my lifetime. The republican party has demonized Unions to the point that it's almost a curse word. Work relations haven't been this bad since the 19th century. There have been strikes, but they've been carried out by pre-existing unions, and those are fewer and farther between every year.

I'm talking about the U.S. and lately it's been happening with the fast food industry a lot.

Has it actually been fast food workers, though? Because all I've heard about are farm hands working for the farms that supply the fast food restaurants. Typically people who harvest tomatos, for some reason.

Take a look here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-57596952/will-fast-food-protests-spur-higher-minimum-wage/

Fast food employees ALREADY make more than servers do. Servers do not even make enough to do that. People think Fast food guys have it bad, they have no idea how bad it is for some servers.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I don't know about your country, but that hasn't happened in the US in my lifetime. The republican party has demonized Unions to the point that it's almost a curse word. Work relations haven't been this bad since the 19th century. There have been strikes, but they've been carried out by pre-existing unions, and those are fewer and farther between every year.

I'm talking about the U.S. and lately it's been happening with the fast food industry a lot.

Has it actually been fast food workers, though? Because all I've heard about are farm hands working for the farms that supply the fast food restaurants. Typically people who harvest tomatos, for some reason.

Take a look here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-57596952/will-fast-food-protests-spur-higher-minimum-wage/

That's surprising, although only two of the protests happened in a "right to work" state -- the better term for which is "at will." As in, your employer can legally fire you for any reason or no reason. They're called "right to work" because it's illegal to be required to join a union in those states. Of those, Michigan's law /just/ took effect, so people may not be used to it, and the version Kansas has is an amendment to the State constitution from 1958, which is very different from the ones other states have, in that it doesn't make it so you can be fired for no reason whatsoever, and in fact specifically prohibits employers from firing workers for unionizing.

I think in Michigan's case, since the unions actually do have power there, one union gets support from other unions, so it would be bad press and for business for them to fire employees striking. They have much more leverage when they have public support. This doesn't do well in Texas when the majority of the public here is anti union, so there is no community support and people do not think twice about employers firing people for protesting. It does not harm their businesses here for them to do so, the businesses here can do so at will.

In Michigan, with unions having community support, they actually can harm their business with such actions giving them power to be more effective. Without that community support unions are rendered powerless.

 

[immortalfrieza]

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Sigh... and they always WILL BE powerless if nobody's willing to stand up and DO something!!! How can I possibly get it across to you that Unions, strikes, and so on have been proven to work, but not unless people are willing to TRY? Even if they fail it still accomplishes more than just sitting on their rear ends and just living with the way things are.

Snip

Believe me, these kind of protests happen all the time, even in those so called "right to work" states. In fact, thanks to the recession they seem to be happening a lot more often, since the only jobs that are plentiful are the ones that have crap pay. Obviously that means that people are going to want their wages to go up, so they're going to start striking and Unionizing.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

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Sigh... and they always WILL BE if nobody's willing to stand up and DO something!!! How can I possibly get it across to you that Unions, strikes, and so on have been proven to work, but not unless people are willing to TRY? Even if they fail it still accomplishes more than just sitting on their rear ends and just living with the way things are.

Snip

Believe me, these kind of protests happen all the time, even in those so called "right to work" states. In fact, thanks to the recession they seem to be happening a lot more often, since the only jobs that are plentiful are the ones that have crap pay. Obviously that means that people are going to want their wages to go up, so they're going to start striking and Unionizing.

Yea they work really well in Texas right?
http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2013/06/19/walmart-files-trespass-lawsuits-against-protesters/
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/Walmart-Sues-Union-Protesters-in-Fort-Worth-212018061.html
http://www.law360.com/articles/30554/company-union-sued-for-forcing-workers-to-join
They do try here and get stomped back down before anything comes of it. You have to have community support for this to work. They simply do not have that in Texas. " union" is considered like " swearing" in Texas. LOL

 

[immortalfrieza]

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It was the same for the rest of the country decades ago before the very idea of Unions was ever conceived. However, you're right, despite decades of time, effort, and sacrifices Unions were unanimously a failure and strikes never accomplished anything.

Oh wait...

The direct opposite is true. Unions and strikes have failed plenty of times, but they've also succeeded plenty of times. Again I have no doubt you already know that and are just ignoring those facts because if you didn't you'd have to admit that you are wrong. Just because they don't work in Texas now is no reason to think that they will never work. Yours is one of most defeatist attitudes I have ever heard.

Besides, so what if Unions and strikes will never work in Texas? What about the REST OF THE COUNTRY!?! You've conveniently ignored that Unions and strikes HAVE worked in pretty much every other state, even if it's not that often.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Snip

It was the same for the rest of the country decades ago before the very idea of Unions was ever conceived. However, you're right, despite decades of time, effort, and sacrifices Unions were unanimously a failure and strikes never accomplished anything.

Oh wait...

The direct opposite is true. Unions and strikes have failed plenty of times, but they've also succeeded plenty of times. Again I have no doubt you already know that and are just ignoring those facts because if you didn't you'd have to admit that you are wrong. Just because they don't work in Texas now is no reason to think that they will never work. Yours is one of most defeatist attitudes I have ever heard.

Besides, so what if Unions and strikes will never work in Texas? What about the REST OF THE COUNTRY!?! You've conveniently ignored that Unions and strikes HAVE worked in pretty much every other state, even if it's not that often.

My point is, that you have to actually HAVE community support for unions to be effective. You empower the people and gain the community support prior to waging a war on it. All you do by not tipping servers is take even more power away from them, they can't pay to live little lone pay for union dues. Without union dues the union does not have the power to gain legal representation. You are rendering those individuals that you refuse to tip penniless and powerless. They currently are not in a position to fight back, and you are not enabling them to do so by refusing to tip them.

If you want to actually help further this along, you tip them, and you fight for them legally to have better conditions at the same time. You change this with your votes, your money, and volunteer to help them. That is how these things are accomplished, you don't just stand there and yell at them to do something when they lack the ability to do so. That is like trying to yell at someone paralyzed to walk. If they lack the ability, all you are doing by yelling at them is making an ass of yourself.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Snip

No, what you do is refuse to tip them and fight for them legally to have better conditions. By tipping you are robbing them of the motivation necessary to fight to increase their wages. It's not like yelling at a paralyzed person to walk, it's more like yelling at a crack addict to go get clean. With the former, he's unable to do what you're yelling at him to do, with the latter he's unwilling to do what you're yelling at him to do, and servers are the latter. All the fighting for better conditions for anyone means jack if they aren't willing to do anything.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Snip

It was the same for the rest of the country decades ago before the very idea of Unions was ever conceived. However, you're right, despite decades of time, effort, and sacrifices Unions were unanimously a failure and strikes never accomplished anything.

Oh wait...

The direct opposite is true. Unions and strikes have failed plenty of times, but they've also succeeded plenty of times. Again I have no doubt you already know that and are just ignoring those facts because if you didn't you'd have to admit that you are wrong. Just because they don't work in Texas now is no reason to think that they will never work. Yours is one of most defeatist attitudes I have ever heard.

Besides, so what if Unions and strikes will never work in Texas? What about the REST OF THE COUNTRY!?! You've conveniently ignored that Unions and strikes HAVE worked in pretty much every other state, even if it's not that often.

You can add Florida to the list. Hell, state employees here are actually forbidden from striking. They can form a union, but it's illegal for them to go on strike, which makes the whole thing kind of pointless. This includes (and is, in fact, aimed at) the teacher's union.

You'll find Florida and Texas to be more typical of right to work states than Kansas and Michigan.

Edit: and as Lil Devils X is saying, they need community support. Right to work states, by and large, are red states where the leaders of the Republican party have been successful in their campaign to demonize unions[footnote]Florida is a swing state in name only, it's red everywhere but Miami. It can be a swing state in National elections, but at the state level it may as well be solid red.[/footnote]. In those states, you'd have better luck getting the devil himself elected governor than you would getting the average person to support a union, and that was not hyperbole.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Snip

No, what you do is refuse to tip them and fight for them legally to have better conditions. By tipping you are robbing them of the motivation necessary to fight to increase their wages. It's not like yelling at a paralyzed person to walk, it's more like yelling at a crack addict to go get clean. With the former, he's unable to do what you're yelling at him to do, with the latter he's unwilling to do what you're yelling at him to do, and servers are the latter. All the fighting for better conditions for anyone means jack if they aren't willing to do anything.

They already have motivation to get better wages. All you do by not tipping is render them penniless and powerless. Comparing grocery and rent money to crack? WTH is wrong with you? Their tips are not a drug they are what they use to feed themselves, put a roof over their heads and feed their kids. It isn't that they are unwilling, it is that they lack the community support and financial ability. How does making sure they have less money enable them financially to fight back? Please show me where they lack motivation, show me proof that they lack motivation, as their incomes can be proven and they speak for themselves. Their obvious lack of financial ability is a given, and making them have less of that solves nothing and only makes their situation worse.

Of course you could agree to change laws and have mandatory tips to ensure the servers are paid, but for the most part mandatory tipping does not have the support of the community as well.
http://business.time.com/2011/10/20/are-mandatory-tips-at-restaurants-legal/

 

[immortalfrieza]

Snip

Let me see if I can hammer this rather obvious point into you. If servers have tips, they get just enough money to live off of and thus coast by on them. You in fact give me the ammo I need for this point. You are right, without tips then servers would start going hungry, losing their homes and so forth. So, logically, if tips were to stop, servers in droves would quit their jobs to work at other places, strike, form Unions and whatever else they needed to get to get their wages up. As a result, the service industry would have to concede to their demands to be able to continue functioning. By giving servers tips you ensure that they have no reason whatsoever to do anything. If you can't understand this very basic logic, then there's no reason I should continue arguing with you.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Snip

Actually, it's circular logic. Lil devils x's logic is, these states don't support Unions, therefore there is no reason to try to get them to support Unions in the future, therefore these states don't support Unions, therefore there is not reason to... need I go on?

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Snip

Let me see if I can hammer this rather obvious point into you. If servers have tips, they get just enough money to live off of and thus coast by on them. You in fact give me the ammo I need for this point. You are right, without tips then servers would start going hungry, losing their homes and so forth. So, logically, if tips were to stop, servers would quit their jobs to work at other places, strike, form Unions and whatever else they needed to get to get their wages up. As a result, the service industry would have to concede to their demands to be able to continue functioning. By giving servers tips you ensure that they have no reason whatsoever to do anything. If you can't understand this very basic logic, then there's no reason I should continue arguing with you.

Let me see if I can hammer this down for YOU. The actual work being done by servers in the first place sucks already really really bad. They do not have this job because they can go get other jobs, they have this job because they are already desperate. They clean up urine, feces, vomit, have people treat them as sub human dropping items on the floor just for them to pick up, they are looked down upon by society as being servants, they burn themselves on hot plates and are on their feet all day on hard concrete floors. This is not some desirable profession, this is the job people take as a last resort when they can find no other work. Have you ever been a server, having people treat you like dog shit all day and demean and belittle you? Who the hell would take this job by choice?!

What you are proposing here is that instead of having the last resort job as an option to survive, they not survive at all. Please show me all these jobs available for these people to take so they don't starve in the meantime? Taking away that last resort job as an option only ensures they will not survive, not that they will go get another job. Those " other jobs" are already taken.

Your analogy is false because they do not have other options to begin with.