I have a bone to pick with XCOM: Enemy Unknown.

[doomed89]

I know. But I don't like that design much.

Because of that design, the player doesn't have much choice for tactics. You either get to cover and do one of three things:
1) Trade Fire between cover. (tends to favor the enemy heavily when I try it)
2) Assault-Rush w/Suppress
3) Explosives (remove cover, or splash behind cover)

If you're damned lucky, you might be able to flank them or get some height advantage, but usually, moving up to flank triggers yet more aliens and leads to YOU getting flanked. This leads to the principle reason why Overwatch Squadsight Snipers and Assault are so powerful; they usually trump the system (snipers LOVE "vertical" engagements where they can hang back; Assaults "Horizontal" engagements where they can move to solitary targets and assassinate them up close).

Again, I know they had to do that because of the tiny squad size limit (which itself was to limit the necessary management).

There's actually a forth tactic (and usually the best in alot of situations) fall back outside of the enemies sight and go on overwatch. Probably the most effective.

 

[tilmoph]

Even with not created equal and hidden potential my heavies seem to have crap aim, could just be a bad roll though and I only got like 3 heavies out of like 40 soldiers. Where I am in the game right now is on impossible after the alien base with a ton of light plasma guns so heavies aren't really useful right now outside of the rocket launcher which I don't really want to use since I'm low on weapon fragment so I'd only really use on mutton's and terror missions. As for the extra crit I don't really need it since a crit usual does 90% damage to the health where a normal hit would do 50% and I can usually flank anyways and rapid fire is completely useless unless you are right in front of them because of the drastic aim penalty.

As for the ghost armor I really don't see why you can't do that with a support class, it will do a little less damage but not by that much, and the extra mobility while cloak makes more of your turns.

Rapid fire is far from completely useless with the aim penalty. At worst, if your base hit chance is about 29% or worse, it's a push in terms of average damage output. at 30% or better, the average damage starts to exceed a standard shot (though not by much at that point). Rapid shot is also why I'd prefer a ghosted assault over a ghosted support. Well, that and alloy cannon.

Having said that, I concede my initial point regarding supports needing a buff. It seems I just haven't been using supports as well as I could have, since I initially saw them as medics and captures. I still, personally, would take an assault over a support in almost all cases if given a choice, but I'll concede that that's a matter of personal preference and playstyle rather than an accurate assessment of the supports full capabilities.

 

[Atmos Duality]

There's actually a forth tactic (and usually the best in alot of situations) fall back outside of the enemies sight and go on overwatch. Probably the most effective.

So backpedaling constantly is the secret to beating the game?
Not being sarcastic here, that literally just made me sad. Not at just the realization, but at how horrible the tactics have been designed in general.

Very rarely have I felt any sort of buyer's remorse months after I beat the game, but you just managed it. Well done.

 

[doomed89]

So backpedaling constantly is the secret to beating the game?
Not being sarcastic here, that literally just made me sad. Not at just the realization, but at how horrible the tactics have been designed in general.

Very rarely have I felt any sort of buyer's remorse months after I beat the game, but you just managed it. Well done.

Eh it's just another tactic. Since I like using supports I have a pretty wide net so one of my guys can usually flank them without rushing up anyways and if not I can usually toss a grenade but sometimes the best thing to do is fall back, and you don't have to run all the way back, just out of their sight which could be 1 square if you are at a corner.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Eh it's just another tactic. Since I like using supports I have a pretty wide net so one of my guys can usually flank them without rushing up anyways and if not I can usually toss a grenade but sometimes the best thing to do is fall back, and you don't have to run all the way back, just out of their sight which could be 1 square if you are at a corner.

I knew what you meant the moment I realized what you said.
Abusing LOS and AI with Overwatch. Shit, I think I did that for most of the crashed UFO missions too..inadvertently.
Sigh. Well, at least I'll have Xenonauts to look forward to. Probably won't play Enemy Unknown again for a while if ever though.

 

[doomed89]

I knew what you meant the moment I realized what you said.
Abusing LOS and AI with Overwatch. Shit, I think I did that for most of the crashed UFO missions too..inadvertently.
Sigh. Well, at least I'll have Xenonauts to look forward to. Probably won't play Enemy Unknown again for a while if ever though.

It beats trading shots in cover lol, of course the enemy does do the same thing on occasion which is pretty much the only reason I even have an assault lol.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Sigh. Well, at least I'll have Xenonauts to look forward to. Probably won't play Enemy Unknown again for a while if ever though.

Xenonauts is looking pretty scruffy. Looks like a game that came out in 1992.

 

[Smiley Face]

You probably don't need 6 medkits or smoke pellets no but it is useful to have 2 soldiers capable of reviving/healing/throwing smoke allows for a bigger net, same with the move bonus, you can spread your soldiers a little thinner without any real consequences and deep pockets makes them awesome you can trade off the triple med kit for two unique items. You could have one support with defense smoke and the other with offensive smoke. One with all the combat abilities and one with all the support abilities. They are simply the most versatile.

As for assaults you said with the react to shooting overwatch you'd probably just shoot at them but isn't the same true of the lightning reflexes skill? I mean the only time I really use it is on council missions on the drop down thin men, and don't forget that some enemies can come into sight on a wall and shoot without triggering any of your overwatch guys. and the rapid fire is useless unless you are right next to the guy and even then it can miss, honestly I find flush more useful for when an alien is low on health and you want a bonus to aim or if your sniper shot is blocked and the bonus to crit isn't really helpful when you have absolutely critical on.

Heavy's are good for if you are facing off against a lot of strong enemies, the rocket is a good range attack and can kill the cover of mutons and damage to to half health while killing cover also good against crystalists but you're right as a shooter they aren't that good. Like I said before they are very situation in some situations they are the best thing possible. One map in a normal town I was in a building with my guys and mutons right outside the door along the side wall ready to flank, shot a rocket hit all 3 with 6 and tore away their cover, 3 shots later and they are dead.

For the heavies, yes, heavies are very useful, particularly in certain situations - that said, I've never been in a situation where I needed TWO of them.

I strongly disagree with you on the issue of Rapid Fire - yes, it only works at close range (meaning within 3, maybe 4 squares), but you know what? With Run and Gun, you will get there every time. Rapid Fire is a guarantee that whatever you're shooting will go down.

Flush? I don't see the point of it. If they're far enough away that I can't run and gun to put my shotgun against their head, then they won't be able to hit me in the first place - particularly if I throw down suppressing fire. Not to mention, if I waste an action flushing, that's one more enemy I'm not killing this turn.

Deep pockets is good, but you get it LATE - I usually don't train 2 support guys up to major by the time I can win.

It is useful to have 2 guys with a medkit, which is why I give one of my other guys a medkit. Is it less efficient? Yes, but the risk of my support guy being unable to get to a guy to heal him twice in a game, particularly with the movement bonus and him being the worst fighter, is negligible.

Also, offensive smoke is pointless - why get a weak fighter with offensive smoke, when I can get a good fighter who more than outstrips the benefits that would give him?

While the support class is the most versatile, that just makes them a jack of all trades. Yes, you need a jack to handle the odd situation here or there - but you need your kings and aces to do the heavy lifting. If I were a more reckless player, I would need 2 support guys to cover my mistakes. As it is, I very carefully prepare my attack, then go in with a massive first strike which kills almost all of the opposing group. To do that, I need strong firepower, and a LOT of mobility, which means I need 2 assault guys. You just can't run the same tactics with support guys - and while you could maybe do it with heavies, you'd run the risk of running out of rockets on a long level. Oh, and also, running and gunning means flanking - and that makes the enemies so easy to hit and crit, that it's not funny.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Xenonauts is looking pretty scruffy. Looks like a game that came out in 1992.

I'm enough of a gaming geezer that doesn't really bother me.
As long as I can clearly tell what the hell I'm doing and the visuals aren't physically nauseating or painful to look at, I can manage.

I mean, I swallowed the hideousness of Might and Magic 7 in software rendering years back and that game looked like total ass for its time.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I'm enough of a gaming geezer that doesn't really bother me.

As long as I can clearly tell what the hell I'm doing and the visuals aren't physically nauseating or painful to look at, I can manage.

I mean, I swallowed the hideousness of Might and Magic 7 in software rendering years back and that game looked like total ass for its time.

Well, let's be clear where I'm coming from. I stump for people to play JA2 all the time, in its 800x600 glory. I would not hesitate to recommend hoary old classics like "Archon" or "M.U.L.E".

Frankly, I was too kind to Xenonauts. It doesn't just look dated. It also looks ugly and dull. The graphics lack all sense of personality or even a hint of art direction...they are the living definition of "functional", to the degree that the game shares an aesthetic with Minesweeper, or possibly Microsoft Excel. The animation/sounds/etc are equally lacking.

Now, the game is still technically in beta, so all that is subject to change, but it would appear the game is belabored by a poor initial choice of engine, possibly coupled with a lack of vision or talent on the part of the designer when it comes to making a visually appealing experience. In its current incarnation, it is an utterly charmless game.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Well, let's be clear where I'm coming from. I stump for people to play JA2 all the time, in its 800x600 glory. I would not hesitate to recommend hoary old classics like "Archon" or "M.U.L.E".

Frankly, I was too kind to Xenonauts. It doesn't just look dated. It also looks ugly and dull. The graphics lack all sense of personality or even a hint of art direction...they are the living definition of "functional", to the degree that the game shares an aesthetic with Minesweeper, or possibly Microsoft Excel. The animation/sounds/etc are equally lacking.

Now, the game is still technically in beta, so all that is subject to change, but it would appear the game is belabored by a poor initial choice of engine, possibly coupled with a lack of vision or talent on the part of the designer when it comes to making a visually appealing experience. In its current incarnation, it is an utterly charmless game.

I get what you mean, but lacking any other good tactics games, it's still on my "maybe" list just because it looks mechanically engaging. The next closest game in genre for that would be...Battleworld's Kronos, and who knows when that will be out.

 

[doomed89]

For the heavies, yes, heavies are very useful, particularly in certain situations - that said, I've never been in a situation where I needed TWO of them.

I strongly disagree with you on the issue of Rapid Fire - yes, it only works at close range (meaning within 3, maybe 4 squares), but you know what? With Run and Gun, you will get there every time. Rapid Fire is a guarantee that whatever you're shooting will go down.

Flush? I don't see the point of it. If they're far enough away that I can't run and gun to put my shotgun against their head, then they won't be able to hit me in the first place - particularly if I throw down suppressing fire. Not to mention, if I waste an action flushing, that's one more enemy I'm not killing this turn.

Deep pockets is good, but you get it LATE - I usually don't train 2 support guys up to major by the time I can win.

It is useful to have 2 guys with a medkit, which is why I give one of my other guys a medkit. Is it less efficient? Yes, but the risk of my support guy being unable to get to a guy to heal him twice in a game, particularly with the movement bonus and him being the worst fighter, is negligible.

Also, offensive smoke is pointless - why get a weak fighter with offensive smoke, when I can get a good fighter who more than outstrips the benefits that would give him?

While the support class is the most versatile, that just makes them a jack of all trades. Yes, you need a jack to handle the odd situation here or there - but you need your kings and aces to do the heavy lifting. If I were a more reckless player, I would need 2 support guys to cover my mistakes. As it is, I very carefully prepare my attack, then go in with a massive first strike which kills almost all of the opposing group. To do that, I need strong firepower, and a LOT of mobility, which means I need 2 assault guys. You just can't run the same tactics with support guys - and while you could maybe do it with heavies, you'd run the risk of running out of rockets on a long level. Oh, and also, running and gunning means flanking - and that makes the enemies so easy to hit and crit, that it's not funny.

If you only have low level heavies on a terror mission 2 will probably be useful, but that's only early one, if you have one with 2 or 3 rockets you won't ever need two. (Two could still come in useful though but that'd be pretty rare) and yes I did read what you said wrong lol.

With run and gun you'll get there, and alert 2 squads while you are at it. I guess I prefer mid distance flanks over running straight up and giving them an insanely good shot if they somehow survive. I usually only down run up and shoot for spaceship commanders.

I'm on month 3 and I have a maxed out support and 2 mid level ones. Also how exactly is the support the worst fighter? Like I said rapid shot is useless unless you run out and that is likely to trigger another squad, where support have the best movement bonus which lets you cast a wider net, keep your guys farther apart and still always get a shot, usually a flanking shot, I don't understand how you think assaults outstrip supports so much, they really don't, their only actual decent move is run and gun and even that only works if you already cleared the site going up to the alien otherwise you just make things harder on yourself.

Supports have just as much fire power as assaults, unless you are stupid enough to run straight up to the enemy every time with a shotgun. Long term that strategy doesn't work, even if you can usually kill all of them your first move and you are lucky enough not to trigger 2 extra squads, they will survive at least once in your game and then your assaults are incredibly vulnerable. Also the trade off for shotgun weapons is making your assaults useless at range. While I agree you can't run the same tactics with supports, you can run better tactics with supports, seeing how they have better overall movement you can cast a wider net and get constantly flanking shots while giving the aliens no decent cover or opportunity to flank, and if you get into a bad situation you have smoke and med packs to cover your ass. I can reliable kill 4 enemies on any turn with my tactics, with 2 assault you can only reliable kill 3 and you are more likely to trigger more aliens.

 

[teebeeohh]

the issue with the game is that it was developed for consoles.
WAIT, put away the pitchforks, let me explain:
the game doesn't provide enough feedback, there are a lot of issues in the way line of sight works and often it's not clear who is flanking whom. i also can't turn on a grid which would allow me to precisely plan my moves ahead but then again this is not something that really matters since the game gives enemies a free turn the moment you see them.
and i feel this was done to make the game look less like a spread sheet and bring in some action crowd or something, i mean the default target select option places the camera so that you have no idea where the guy you shoot at is in relation to everything else, but it looks cool.
and while i initially didn't mind the 2 actions system it does take aways a lot of options you have with action points, i was always a big fan of JA2 where shots were really cheap but you need to spend a ton of extra points on aiming to hit something.


oh and personal pet peeves:
my rapid fire weapons should not either hit or not hit, each bullet should have its own chance of hitting
why can't i build a second sky ranger? i really want a B-team, which would make replacing losses easier.
why can't i send my soldiers to train armies to fight against aliens, giving me allies in missions?
why can't i sell my old laser weapons, i am sure someone will pay good money for them.

 

[Ryan Hughes]

Well, it goes to show how hard balancing this type of game really is. I personally found "Classic" difficulty a bit too easy without "Ironman" mode turned on, but admittedly not played the game with "Ironman" on. This entire genre of game was developed under the pretense that the player could save spam and thus reset if anything went horribly wrong. I really am not ashamed to admit that I do reset reasonably often in the game, and I think the developers designed the difficulty with that in mind. I believe "Ironman" mode was simply something of an afterthought and not something the team spent a lot of time balancing.

Besides, I would rather support a developer that has the backbone to err on the side of difficulty rather than one that is afraid to make their game so hard that some people may not like it.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I get what you mean, but lacking any other good tactics games, it's still on my "maybe" list just because it looks mechanically engaging. The next closest game in genre for that would be...Battleworld's Kronos, and who knows when that will be out.

That was my feeling as well when I pre-ordered it back in the day, but I'm starting to have buyer's remorse. Currently hoping one of Shadowrun Returns or Wasteland 2 will provide a good tactical experience, and if not there's always the JA kickstarter that JUST made it in under the wire.

I'd throw in Dead State as well but that's looking increasingly like vaporware.

 

[doomed89]

the issue with the game is that it was developed for consoles.
WAIT, put away the pitchforks, let me explain:
the game doesn't provide enough feedback, there are a lot of issues in the way line of sight works and often it's not clear who is flanking whom. i also can't turn on a grid which would allow me to precisely plan my moves ahead but then again this is not something that really matters since the game gives enemies a free turn the moment you see them.
and i feel this was done to make the game look less like a spread sheet and bring in some action crowd or something, i mean the default target select option places the camera so that you have no idea where the guy you shoot at is in relation to everything else, but it looks cool.
and while i initially didn't mind the 2 actions system it does take aways a lot of options you have with action points, i was always a big fan of JA2 where shots were really cheap but you need to spend a ton of extra points on aiming to hit something.


oh and personal pet peeves:
my rapid fire weapons should not either hit or not hit, each bullet should have its own chance of hitting
why can't i build a second sky ranger? i really want a B-team, which would make replacing losses easier.
why can't i send my soldiers to train armies to fight against aliens, giving me allies in missions?
why can't i sell my old laser weapons, i am sure someone will pay good money for them.

-They send out like 20 bullets and things start with 4 health and the later weapons don't even have bullets, you are complaining about astehtics sorry lol.

-This I'm wondering a bit as well, I assume because abduction missions are the only ones you'd use it on and getting all rewards would be over powered.

-Seriously? You have have 100 soldiers in your garrison and need upgrades to reach a 6 solider limit...

-This annoys me as well, but I think the issue is the most engineers you have the cheaper they are to make, so at a certain point whatever price they set on it would be cheaper then what it costs to make and you could receive infinite money.

 

[Cecilo]

Difficulty you say? I remember my first time playing the original UFO: Enemy Unknown, first mission, three to four of my men die in a row. Guy in the back of the skyranger with a rocket launcher goes berserk. Shoots his fellow squad mates. Lose the rest of the squad, And the skyranger, because no one was left to fly it back.

Or my favorite, Blaster Bombs in the coordinated assault of the Alien Base Hub. The Alien Commanders really like going out in a blaze of glory. Or the magic of chyrsalids who always turn your people or civilians into Xombies regardless of if they are on screen or not.

And don't even get me started on Terror From The Deep. Lobstermen who have perfect aim and long range weaponry, who are only weak to MELEE WEAPONS. Can show up on the third terror mission. Or the Brain Chrysalids whose name escapes me, who instead of turning people into xombies, TURN THEM STRAIGHT INTO MORE BRAIN FLYING CHRYSALIDS. DID I MENTION THEY CAN FLY.

Or the magic of "we know who the weakest in psionics are" of the Psychic aliens, managing to know exactly who the best person is to mind control or berserk. The new XCom game is not nearly as difficult as the old one, the new one just feels cheaper. Cheap =/= Difficulty.

 

[neppakyo]

Hey, if you have the PC version maybe http://xcom.nexusmods.com could improve it for ya.

Dunno, just sayin'

 

[teebeeohh]

-They send out like 20 bullets and things start with 4 health and the later weapons don't even have bullets, you are complaining about astehtics sorry lol.

it's not about aesthetics, the way weapons are every weapon works like a sniper rifle, you get to shoot once and pray you hit, the advantage provided by a high rate of fire is not simulated in the game at all(you can't lay down covering fire over an area, you can't aim your machine gun to destroy walls, shooting enough bullets[or lazors or plasma or cute bunnies or whatever] that even a few hits do some damage). mechanically, all soldiers in the game run around with some kind of bolt-action rifle. and just multiply all damage and HP values by ten.
and it also bugs me that it's always either all shots that it or miss, it just looks stupid

-This I'm wondering a bit as well, I assume because abduction missions are the only ones you'd use it on and getting all rewards would be over powered.

give me small mission without rewards, dangerous enough that you don't want to send you A-team but good for your B-team to get some experience. or just a second slot for my one skyranger so i can easily load my B-team into the thing when i think they can handle the mission at hand

-Seriously? You have have 100 soldiers in your garrison and need upgrades to reach a 6 solider limit...

misunderstanding, i meant that you send your super high colonel into a country to train their troops and when you have a mission in that country those troops assist you by providing fire support and heroically taking the sectopod shot. think JA2 militia.

-This annoys me as well, but I think the issue is the most engineers you have the cheaper they are to make, so at a certain point whatever price they set on it would be cheaper then what it costs to make and you could receive infinite money.

you could rebalance that so that funding alone just isn't enough to pay for everything and Xcom gets desperate and starts selling tech to whoever pays for it. could even include a mission or two where you have to fight humans who use your weaponry for something sinister if you sold too many.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

**hedgemaze-of-text-clipper**

Reading your post, I gather that you didn't play the original, which at the highest difficulty was more of a keyboard smashing simulator. Granted you could save before any risky moves, but the RNG was much more punishing than the remake (or maybe I played so many rounds that it just seemed that way). I enjoy both versions, and find the new one to be a little less a headache than the original. Still with most games that run off of RNG's its the mercy of luck/fate/whatever that gets you through it sometimes no matter what skill level you may have.
I feel the frustration, I really do. I remember one game of the original that I had most of my crew leveled up near max, and with decent armor. I forgot to save for a while due to ego, and decided to take on a huge alien ship, which promptly demolished my newly minted landing craft because I'd forgotten to put weapons on it taking out my entire crew. And my closest save for that game was almost near the beginning.
Hulk smash keyboard!!