I have a problem with Dark Souls

[Denamic]

I guess that's okay, it's just that I was looking forward to having a really badass character by the end of the game.

And here's where you're playing the game wrong. You won't have "a really badass character by the end of the game" regardless of how much you raise his stats. If at the end of the game you take the default equipment your character started with and go fight some of the optional bosses, or go through some of the high level areas with it you'll quickly realize that your character is basically the same as what you started with, just a bit less squishy. The damage your character does largely depends on your weapon and its upgrades, not your stats, and how much survivability you have largely depends on your armor and shield, not on how much HP you have. Sure, having more HP helps, but at the end of the day, having a character with 800 HP, or having a character with 1400 HP is just the difference between a boss killing you in 1 hit or 2.

Other people have explained this to me too. I've already found it to be mostly true, however when I was talking about having "badass character" I wasn't talking strictly about personal stats. I meant in terms of armor and weapons as well because from what I can tell stats like strength and dexterity are what allow you to wield larger weapons while stats like intelligence and faith let you wield better magic. (unrelated point: what does intelligence have to do with magic? Wouldn't intelligence be more for like inventing stuff?)

Maybe those stats don't need to be really high to allow you to wield most weapons, and maybe the best weapons can't be bought at stores for souls, and maybe the items needed to upgrade said weapons can't be bought with souls either. Basically all this leads back to the same thing: souls don't matter, which is what I'll walk away from this with.

Then try completing the game without ever leveling up, buying items, or upgrading your equipment. You can't buy your way to success with souls, but you can't really ignore them either. What you're doing is justifying taking a notion to its extreme for no apparent reason.

Also, there are no best items. Even the gear you start out with can be excellent end-game items if you keep them upgraded. A normal longsword is perfectly capable of carrying you through the entire game.

 

[Olas]

I guess that's okay, it's just that I was looking forward to having a really badass character by the end of the game.

And here's where you're playing the game wrong. You won't have "a really badass character by the end of the game" regardless of how much you raise his stats. If at the end of the game you take the default equipment your character started with and go fight some of the optional bosses, or go through some of the high level areas with it you'll quickly realize that your character is basically the same as what you started with, just a bit less squishy. The damage your character does largely depends on your weapon and its upgrades, not your stats, and how much survivability you have largely depends on your armor and shield, not on how much HP you have. Sure, having more HP helps, but at the end of the day, having a character with 800 HP, or having a character with 1400 HP is just the difference between a boss killing you in 1 hit or 2.

Other people have explained this to me too. I've already found it to be mostly true, however when I was talking about having "badass character" I wasn't talking strictly about personal stats. I meant in terms of armor and weapons as well because from what I can tell stats like strength and dexterity are what allow you to wield larger weapons while stats like intelligence and faith let you wield better magic. (unrelated point: what does intelligence have to do with magic? Wouldn't intelligence be more for like inventing stuff?)

Maybe those stats don't need to be really high to allow you to wield most weapons, and maybe the best weapons can't be bought at stores for souls, and maybe the items needed to upgrade said weapons can't be bought with souls either. Basically all this leads back to the same thing: souls don't matter, which is what I'll walk away from this with.

Then try completing the game without ever leveling up, buying items, or upgrading your equipment. You can't buy your way to success with souls, but you can't really ignore them either. What you're doing is justifying taking a notion to its extreme for no apparent reason.

According to some posts in this thread there are people who basically do that, and I fully believe it. However I'll make a slight addendum to my statement: Souls don't matter, except very early on(but don't worry, you can just farm them).

The more importance you put on souls, the more problematic it is that you can farm them.

And to people who are saying or implying that one should just choose NOT to farm them, well, you're basically asking the player to police themselves instead of relying on the game's own restrictions, and the problem I have with this sort of artificial self-imposed restriction is that it's completely arbitrary. When is it too much farming vs too little? Is it okay to deliberately backtrack through an area the long way because I'm amassing more souls? I'd prefer not to have to think about these kind of things.

I think probably an easy way to solve this would be to just make enemies drop souls the first time you kill them and then not after that. Other things remain permanent in the game, such as the death of bosses (which I think is kinda a shame to be honest) so I don't see any reason one couldn't do this instead.

 

[Olas]

First of all, I am listening to your words, not accepting your explanation isn't the same thing as ignoring you.

Now, you keep using the word "choice" like it's some buzzword that means something universally positive. I think it's safe to say we can agree that there are situations where having too much choice can be a bad thing. The problem I have with this particular choice is that it allows you to substitute skill and effort with tedium, which I don't consider to be an adequate trade off, and yet you say it's a perfectly legit way to go through the game. Perhaps you could frame this as being analogous to playing a game on different difficulty settings, choosing to farm more is effectively lowering the difficulty of the game. But then that changes the dynamics of the game somewhat. Whereas before I viewed having a powerful character as a sign of accomplishment because that strength had to be earned through difficult accomplishments, now it seems more like training wheels. I guess that's okay, it's just that I was looking forward to having a really badass character by the end of the game.

1. You dont HAVE to farm souls. Just because its available to do, doesn't change a thing. Sounds like you just want to nitpick the game instead of play it.

2. Leveling up your character thru "tedious" farming of souls wouldn't feel like an accomplishment then? If not, well, good thing that is not the only way to do so. Yay, choices.

3. Equipment matters more than stats.

Yes, you've made these points already (the first 2 are basically the same point). The reason the first 2 don't work is that even the definition of what constitutes farming is vague and up for interpretation. Does backtracking through an area with easy enemies count as farming? Does letting yourself die so you can return to the area to retrieve the lost souls and therefore have twice as many count as farming? Exploiting the game's soul collecting mechanic isn't just something you can do or not do, like exploiting a certain glitch, it's something that's basically a part of the game.

And keep in mind that I really do like the game (so far) and that it's only because I like it that I'm bothering to nitpick this stuff. If the game was otherwise shit I wouldn't care.

 

[Olas]

Normally amassing Souls thru normal play is NOT farming. You were talking about the fact that you can just keep going thru the same area over and over again, to amass souls. That is farming.

Souls in the game is basically currency and is used to buy things, and to level up, and to level up weapons and so forth. Putting a finite amount of souls in the game is stupid.

Why?

You seem to literally be the only person to complain about how the game plays. If you don't want to amass more souls, then dont "reset" the enemies by resting at bonfires.

Resting at the bonfires is how you heal and move your re-spawn point. I would be making things a LOT harder on myself if I ignored them.

You want them to change the way they made the game play, and its economy, just for you. Go play something else that fits your criteria. Problem Solved.

It sounds like they did fix this problem in Dark Souls 2, where enemies re-spawn a limited number of times, which I probably will play after I beat this one if I like it. I'm obviously not expecting them to fix a 3 year old game for me, I'm just explaining why I do in fact think this is a flaw.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

It sounds like they did fix this problem in Dark Souls 2, where enemies re-spawn a limited number of times, which I probably will play after I beat this one if I like it. I'm obviously not expecting them to fix a 3 year old game for me, I'm just explaining why I do in fact think this is a flaw.

And then people who have A LOT more experience in the game than you explained to you why it's not a flaw. It seems like the only reason you insist that this is a problem is because you seem to have some kind of expectation for the game that doesn't mirror the reality of what the game is. Maybe once you get a bit farther along you'll realize how much of a non-issue what you're talking about is.

 

[nokori3byo]

It's been said already, but merits further emphasis: pushing forward is ne plus ultra for advancing a character in DS. You can putz around in early areas forever and not really improve in the ways that matter to making your build viable for the endgame. I will admit to having farmed certain areas for the following reasons: gathering crafting materials, gathering humanity, and simply amusing myself by killing off high-level enemies and collecting their souls while I fruitlessly waited for someone to summon me. In the first place, it was my time to waste (invest). In the second, these were not bad uses of my time in terms of what they gave me. Contrast this with the dragon bridge which is neither efficient nor fun.

So, is the ability to farm a blindspot in the game's design? I don't think so. DS is a game that nourishes you with one hand and slaps you senseless with the other. The latter tends to happen when you throw yourself against beef gates you're as yet ill-equipped to take on, not through some arbitrary anti-grind mechanic.

 

[StriderShinryu]

At the end of the day, I feel like being able to grind for souls, especially early on, is a lot like being able to get the Drake Sword early on. On one hand, it can give you a little bit of a leg up at the start if you're having trouble. It's a way to assist the player in making some progress if they're having difficulty getting started. On the other hand, it offers little hope for the later game. By relying on either the Drake Sword or early farmed levels, you're not necessarily getting any better at the game or understanding how to play it. Just like the Drake Sword, early levelling feels powerful early on and may even help a little but doesn't scale well into the later game.

If acquiring some early levels makes helps get you into the game more, then accumulate them by all means but don't ever expect them to supplant the skill, perseverance or knowledge you'll need to actually progress beyond the starting areas.

 

[Elijin]

Dark souls is one of the few games where maxing out your character level / stats wont really mean much at the end of the day. Having the right tool for the job, and being good at the combat system trumps your stats 9/10 late game.

 

[michael87cn]

Actually, Dark Souls is a great RPG unlike what's been said. If you play as a melee character you won't see huge benefits to leveling past a degree, but as a mage? You can get really powerful by leveling up. And getting the right 'gear' a staple system of any 'rpg'.

It's an action game if you play a melee character. It's an RPG if you play a mage, imo.

 

[SmallHatLogan]

Olas, I'm not really getting where you're coming from. Being able to farm enemies indefinitely for experience points and currency (and in Dark Souls they are one and the same) is a feature of the majority of RPGs. As a lot of us have explained there is no real way to abuse the system short of spending countless hours farming, although considering how long you'd have to put in it's a stretch to even call it abusing the system. And again, this is just like the majority of RPGs. Why is it so objectionable in Dark Souls specifically?

 

[Olas]

Olas, I'm not really getting where you're coming from. Being able to farm enemies indefinitely for experience points and currency (and in Dark Souls they are one and the same) is a feature of the majority of RPGs. As a lot of us have explained there is no real way to abuse the system short of spending countless hours farming, although considering how long you'd have to put in it's a stretch to even call it abusing the system. And again, this is just like the majority of RPGs. Why is it so objectionable in Dark Souls specifically?

I haven't played too many RPGs, in fact I can barely think of any I've played at all. Does Mass Effect count? I didn't even really realize Dark Souls was an RPG until I started playing it. Not that I dislike the RPG elements mind you.

I guess the reason I was particularly bugged by the ability to farm here was because of the reputation Dark Souls has as an unforgiving game that never lets up on the player. I started out playing as the Deprived class, because I'm a masochist, but also because I like the idea of starting weak and getting more powerful as I go along. However I quickly realized in the Undead Burg that I could buy just about any item I wanted from the merchant just by killing a bunch of weak enemies, respawning them, and repeating the process until I had enough souls for whatever item I wanted. It didn't take long for my character to have a full set of gear. The same went for leveling up. I know now that the ability to gather souls is pretty insignificant in the grander scheme of the game, but at the time it pretty much seemed like the most important thing to be doing since souls seemed to be required for almost everything.

 

[Darks63]

That spot really start to diminish in returns after around SL 25 after that you would really have to keep at it to try and level there. Plus if you don't know how to properly invest those points it doesn't matter much in the end anyway. I mean you have all those souls but what build are you going for? Dex based? Str based? Chaos based?

And DS as a unforgiving game is debateable. Sure if you go into blind it will trash you hard, but if you look things up it really isn't all that bad.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

Farming souls from the same area isn't sustainable. The number of souls needed to level ends up quickly outstripping the number of souls you gain from farmable enemies.

I speak as someone who ran Undead Burg a dozen or so times to level up so I might have a chance of taking the fucking Taurus Demon down at long last.

Spoiler: I never did. Yes, I am just that terrible.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Farming souls from the same area isn't sustainable. The number of souls needed to level ends up quickly outstripping the number of souls you gain from farmable enemies.

I speak as someone who ran Undead Burg a dozen or so times to level up so I might have a chance of taking the fucking Taurus Demon down at long last.

Spoiler: I never did. Yes, I am just that terrible.

Key to taking down the taurus demon super easily:

Buy residence key from the merchant in undead burg and get the gold pine resin.

When fighting the taurus demon climb the ladder next to the fog gate to the top of the tower, apply gold pine resin to your weapon, do a plunging attack on taurus demon. While he's stunned for a second 2 hand your weapon and go to town. I usually manage to take him down in 3-5 hits and take no damage.

Later on in the game the taurus demon becomes a normal enemy in the Demon Ruins.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

Farming souls from the same area isn't sustainable. The number of souls needed to level ends up quickly outstripping the number of souls you gain from farmable enemies.

I speak as someone who ran Undead Burg a dozen or so times to level up so I might have a chance of taking the fucking Taurus Demon down at long last.

Spoiler: I never did. Yes, I am just that terrible.

Key to taking down the taurus demon super easily:

Buy residence key from the merchant in undead burg and get the gold pine resin.

When fighting the taurus demon climb the ladder next to the fog gate to the top of the tower, apply gold pine resin to your weapon, do a plunging attack on taurus demon. While he's stunned for a second 2 hand your weapon and go to town. I usually manage to take him down in 3-5 hits and take no damage.

Later on in the game the taurus demon becomes a normal enemy in the Demon Ruins.

It always sounds easy when someone explains to me how to do it, but the second I actually get in there all my higher brain functions just vanish and I revert to my usual gameplay method of "hit buttons until the thing falls down" which is not a winning strategy at any point.

Even with an Uchikatana with Gold Pine Resin applied, I fail. Then there was the one time I decided to try to get out of the narrow corridor of the ramparts by luring him up onto the big circular tower you kill the archers on... wherein I missed a dodge, got hit and got thrown over the edge and down to my death in truly humiliating fashion.

On the plus side of my brief and miserable failure-filled experience with Dark Souls, I am now a fucking expert at taking the Undead Burg. I can do that shit practically in my sleep now the amount of times I had to run through it on my way to getting flattened again.

Yet I'm still very much considering getting my hands on Dark Souls 2 tomorrow... hooray for masochism! Though I've heard that Dark Souls 2 is not so much easier as it is a touch more accessible so maybe I'll get a bit further in that one before I hit the "you don't belong here, get fucked" boss fight.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Farming souls from the same area isn't sustainable. The number of souls needed to level ends up quickly outstripping the number of souls you gain from farmable enemies.

I speak as someone who ran Undead Burg a dozen or so times to level up so I might have a chance of taking the fucking Taurus Demon down at long last.

Spoiler: I never did. Yes, I am just that terrible.

Key to taking down the taurus demon super easily:

Buy residence key from the merchant in undead burg and get the gold pine resin.

When fighting the taurus demon climb the ladder next to the fog gate to the top of the tower, apply gold pine resin to your weapon, do a plunging attack on taurus demon. While he's stunned for a second 2 hand your weapon and go to town. I usually manage to take him down in 3-5 hits and take no damage.

Later on in the game the taurus demon becomes a normal enemy in the Demon Ruins.

It always sounds easy when someone explains to me how to do it, but the second I actually get in there all my higher brain functions just vanish and I revert to my usual gameplay method of "hit buttons until the thing falls down" which is not a winning strategy at any point.

Even with an Uchikatana with Gold Pine Resin applied, I fail. Then there was the one time I decided to try to get out of the narrow corridor of the ramparts by luring him up onto the big circular tower you kill the archers on... wherein I missed a dodge, got hit and got thrown over the edge and down to my death in truly humiliating fashion.

On the plus side of my brief and miserable failure-filled experience with Dark Souls, I am now a fucking expert at taking the Undead Burg. I can do that shit practically in my sleep now the amount of times I had to run through it on my way to getting flattened again.

Yet I'm still very much considering getting my hands on Dark Souls 2 tomorrow... hooray for masochism! Though I've heard that Dark Souls 2 is not so much easier as it is a touch more accessible so maybe I'll get a bit further in that one before I hit the "you don't belong here, get fucked" boss fight.

Yeah...I'd say that if you can't beat the taurus demon in dark souls you shouldn't bother getting dark souls 2. The beginning of dark souls 2 doesn't give you a shield with 100% physical block (and in fact, only one starting class even gets a shield to start with), so if your entire gameplay strategy is "hit buttons until thing dies" you're going to have a bad time.

 

[Fat Hippo]

Yet I'm still very much considering getting my hands on Dark Souls 2 tomorrow... hooray for masochism! Though I've heard that Dark Souls 2 is not so much easier as it is a touch more accessible so maybe I'll get a bit further in that one before I hit the "you don't belong here, get fucked" boss fight.

Though I haven't played it myself yet (waiting for PC version) many people are seeing that the first few hours and especially bosses are far easier and forgiving than the start of DkS 1. Of course, these people have already learned how the game works, similar to Demon's Souls players who thought Dark Souls 1 was way easier, so their judgment is skewed. I wouldn't mind having a few hours to warm up again before it starts kicking my ass, to be honest.