I just watched Ghost in the Shell 2017

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

The Japanese liked Scarlett Johansson. Literally, people representing the country where GitS came from, thought Scarlett was a good choice. But, true to our nature, us white folks either didn't notice or acknowledge their feelings. As a lowly faculty assistant from my middle school once said, when I rightfully counter-insulted a friend, "Well I'm offended for her, so you're in trouble."

Japanese people living in Japan don't face any form of discrimination for being Japanese.

This is basically a more globalised form of the "my black friend doesn't mind when I use the n-word" argument. The fact that you can find people of colour who support you doesn't mean you're right. It particularly doesn't mean you're right when your ethnic minority "friends" live in a completely different country thousands of miles away and are foreign to American popular culture.

Japanese people don't actually share some kind of hive mind, they all have unique experiences and perspectives. In particular, Japanese people living as an ethnic minority the US have very different experiences to Japanese people living as an ethnic majority in Japan, and if you've lived as an ethnic minority in Japan you'll know this also works the other way.

For Asian Americans, American popular culture is their popular culture. It's not some outside culture separate to theirs, and yet they are barely present or represented with in it. Countless prominent Asian Americans, including those working in the TV and film industry like Constance Wu, Ming-Na Wen, John Cho and Margaret Cho have spoken openly about whitewashing and the way Asian actors are treated in American media. But I guess listening to Asians means we can only listen to real Asians whose pure Asian souls have never been corrupted by the defiled Earth of other lands, and just pretend that any American who has a problem must automatically be white.

After all, American = white, right? Sounds legit to me..

Just like how every Japanese person in Japan has a unique experience, so do Japanese-Americans, so with your logic we can't expand any personal experience of absolutely anybody at all to cover their entire group. I'd tend to agree with you if you followed your logic to its conclusion but you tend to stop half way and while some people are not a hive mind, you treat others as though they all have a hive mind experience of victimization that doesn't make sense if we want to treat people as individuals.


If anything, it's racist to use Asians who are not Japanese as an example of what Japanese-Americans would experience, cause you're treating them like they're all the same cause they're all from the far east, which is an ethnocentric view of the world that places America as the default place that other places are east or west from.

Now, I sympathize with the general point about whitewashing in American media. GitS however isn't or at they very least SHOULDN'T be American media. It should be Japanese media handled by Americans, kinda like how Dark Souls is a western-feeling game handled by Japanese devs. (but even more so because this is actually based on something with an established identity)




Finally, American popular culture is exported to the entire planet, in a lot of countries it is the ONLY culture that exists (for example, Greece has basically no animation, at all, it's all imported anime and imported american cartoons, so to any kid growing up watching animation, their culture will be a mix of dragonball and pokemon and Disney stuff). It is most definitely not the culture of just Americans and it is not a culture that has social impacts that only affect American citizens. It's just as much the culture of everyone else who basically grew up with it and enjoys it. You don't get any more of a claim to it than the Japanese people simply because you share citizenship with the creators. If anything, the fact that a movie is based on an anime classic gives them more of a claim to it because you're fiddling with people's childhood here.

This is even more pronounced now that we live in the age of the internet, where someone can simulcast a brand new Anime episode in America with english subtitles as it is being shown in Japanese tv. At this point, there's no "our" or "their" popular culture, it all belongs to every fan, outside of nationality. That being the case, the notion that American pop culture that has a worldwide audience has to primarily function to benefit American society isn't a given or something to be taken for granted like your words would imply. That's something you'd do on a case by case basis when it feels like it makes sense, like for example with the Boondocks cartoon.

 

[twistedmic]

It's more that people got rightly irritated that in the 21st century Hollywood still literally can't bring itself to put an Asian actress in a starring role to the point of creating a convoluted story explanation as to why it was okay for them to cast a (horrendously over-used and quite mediocre) white actress instead.

Let's flip the scenario around for a bit, should we expect the Japanese film industry to cast an America/European actor in a movie that calls for a non-Japanese role? Should we get mad if they rarely, if ever, cast American/European actors in lead roles?
Should we expect the British/French/Chinese/etc. film industries to cast non-(insert country here) actors for the sole purpose of having that particular nationality on screen?

 

[Terminal Blue]

Just like how every Japanese person in Japan has a unique experience, so do Japanese-Americans, so with your logic we can't expand any personal experience of absolutely anybody at all to cover their entire group.

We can draw helpful generalisations, however.

I appreciate your commitment to my logic, but you don't need to ride the train that far..

I'd tend to agree with you if you followed your logic to its conclusion but you tend to stop half way and while some people are not a hive mind, you treat others as though they all have a hive mind experience of victimization that doesn't make sense if we want to treat people as individuals.

So, the thing about victimization is that not literally everyone needs to be victimised in order for it to be bad. Victimization is kind of categorically a bad thing.

But let's interrogate the point. If American media and culture literally struggles this much to cast an Asian person in a starring role. If the entire structure of culture is set up around the idea that it is a white culture for the consumption of white audiences who expect white actors, then is it possible for there to be an Asian American who isn't victimised by that? I'll concede that it's possible for an Asian American not to feel victimized, or not to care, and I respect that because at the end of the day it is only film or only TV and some people do have bigger problems in their lives. However, I don't see how it invalidates those people's experience to point out that it's happening.

If anything, it's racist to use Asians who are not Japanese as an example of what Japanese-Americans would experience, cause you're treating them like they're all the same cause they're all from the far east, which is an ethnocentric view of the world that places America as the default place that other places are east or west from.

So, this is something that actually does piss off those Asian audiences we mentioned. Remember Memoirs of a Geisha?

But, generally films aren't reflecting real experiences. They're fiction. Japanese Americans don't have cybernetic bodies. They don't become futuristic counterterrorism operatives and hack into people's brains. Representation isn't about respecting people's individual experiences.

Let me put this bluntly. Do you see American culture as a "white" culture. Do you see whiteness as integral to American culture? Because if you don't, if you resent that idea, then maybe stop and ask yourself why it is so important that a character who is literally named after one of the three sacred treasures of Japan be played by a white person? Why is it critical to market every single film with white actors? What do you think that says about American culture? What do you think it says, specifically, to Asian Americans and other POC who live in America?

You don't get any more of a claim to it than the Japanese people simply because you share citizenship with the creators. If anything, the fact that a movie is based on an anime classic gives them more of a claim to it because you're fiddling with people's childhood here.

Again, who said anyone has a claim to anything? Ghost in the Shell is a literal intellectual property. It is owned by a corporation, and the film rights are rented by another corporation. No consumer "owns" a piece of media they happen to like, or has any claim on it whatsoever. In that sense, we're all just cash cows developing bizarre relationships with our milking machines.

But media is a part of how we learn to live in a society. As you say, it's "people's childhood", and thus it kind of matters if the media you're consuming was created in and thus reflects a society you actually happen to live in, as opposed to one you merely know about or have heard of.

Let's flip the scenario around for a bit, should we expect the Japanese film industry to cast an America/European actor in a movie that calls for a non-Japanese role? Should we get mad if they rarely, if ever, cast American/European actors in lead roles?
Should we expect the British/French/Chinese/etc. film industries to cast non-(insert country here) actors for the sole purpose of having that particular nationality on screen?

I mean, if you want to. I'm not telling you what you can or can't expect or get mad about.

But again, I think it's kind of creepy that you immediately leapt to "nationalities", because it sounds like what you're saying is that casting "American" actors would obviously mean casting white people, and that there's no question of that..

..which is kind of the point I'm trying to argue against, really. America doesn't have to be a white culture, and it's kind of shameful that the producers of American culture still seem to act like it is an explicitly white culture..

 

[twistedmic]

I mean, if you want to. I'm not telling you what you can or can't expect or get mad about.

But again, I think it's kind of creepy that you immediately leapt to "nationalities", because it sounds like what you're saying is that casting "American" actors would obviously mean casting white people, and that there's no question of that..

..which is kind of the point I'm trying to argue against, really. America doesn't have to be a white culture, and it's kind of shameful that the producers of American culture still seem to act like it is an explicitly white culture..

I used 'nationalities' to specify specific countries and their specific cultures. A brief internet search shows that there are roughly sixty different countries (sovereign states, non-UN states and dependent territories) that would be considered Asian. Each country is going to have its own culture and identity and lumping them all together under one umbrella label could be seen as offensive and insensitive.
Is it okay to have a Chinese actor playing a Tibetan character, or a Vietnamese actor playing a Filipino character because you have an Asian actor playing an Asian character?
What about non-White and non-Asian actors and characters? Is it okay to have an Iraqi actor play an Afghani character, a Lebanese actor playing a Libyan character or an Iranian actor playing a Pakistani character okay because they are Middle Eastern?
Is it okay for a Somali actor to play a Jamaican character, or a Ugandan to play an Ethiopian, a Moroccan to play a Nigerian, because they are black?

As for Ghost in the Shell is it ever stated in cannon (manga, anime series or movie) that the Major was biologically Japanese? That she was born as a Japanese female? Or do we just know that she has a Japanese name? Because if she just had a Japanese name doesn't mean she was physically, biologically Japanese.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

But let's interrogate the point. If American media and culture literally struggles this much to cast an Asian person in a starring role. If the entire structure of culture is set up around the idea that it is a white culture for the consumption of white audiences who expect white actors, then is it possible for there to be an Asian American who isn't victimised by that? I'll concede that it's possible for an Asian American not to feel victimized, or not to care, and I respect that because at the end of the day it is only film or only TV and some people do have bigger problems in their lives. However, I don't see how it invalidates those people's experience to point out that it's happening.

My basic idea is that these decisions are all being based on primarily financial reasons, so if there's someone as big as Bruce Lee, they'll make a dozen films a year with him again like they did back in the day.


If you don't feel victimized and you don't consider yourself a victim, I see zero benefit for other people to put the status of victim on you and act on your behalf. If anything, that's a hindrance and a diminishing of your power and sense of confidence, at least your perceived one.

Let me put this bluntly. Do you see American culture as a "white" culture. Do you see whiteness as integral to American culture? Because if you don't, if you resent that idea, then maybe stop and ask yourself why it is so important that a character who is literally named after one of the three sacred treasures of Japan be played by a white person? Why is it critical to market every single film with white actors? What do you think that says about American culture? What do you think it says, specifically, to Asian Americans and other POC who live in America?

I in general reject the "white culture" notion, since I come from Europe and there everyone's white but you have various different cultures. I do recognize the stereotype of white culture, something about being intolerant of spice in food, being bad at dancing, being lame and being sticklers for rules/boring, but that's not any more real than any other ignorant stereotype.

As for what I see as American culture, it is a mix of a bunch of different European cultures, with a spice of Native American and African mixed in, but since I don't see those European cultures as white but rather as whatever nation they stem from, I don't perceive it as being white culture but more Anglo-Saxon-Italian-German and so on. American culture is a lot more about what the mix of those things ended up being than about what were the forming blocks. People who like to grasp at some form of "white identity" because they have no actual identity will try to make it sound like white culture but it's just American culture nowadays. You know, burgers and pizza and guns and freedom to shoot your uncle in the dick while riding a monster truck. That's American culture.

Oh and Kusanagi isn't really that big of a symbolism in GitS. It's the sword that Susanoo got from the corpse of Yamato no Orochi but this isn't really that big of a deal in the story. It's just like randomly naming something with an Ancient Greek God's name to make it sound cool, like the Zeus Blaster or the Hephaestus Hammer and so on haha. Most people won't expect anything from a story just because it has such a reference.

But media is a part of how we learn to live in a society. As you say, it's "people's childhood", and thus it kind of matters if the media you're consuming was created in and thus reflects a society you actually happen to live in, as opposed to one you merely know about or have heard of.

My point is that we all live in this society because we share so much of that media. It's why you have Resist protest in Romania, for example. A whole ton of people legit learn English partially (or mostly in some cases) through that media and go on to be able to function in the societies the media stems from to a higher degree than natives due to just how pervasive it is.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I used 'nationalities' to specify specific countries and their specific cultures.

Sure, but this isn't about "specific countries and their specific cultures".

I mean, again, there have been controversies in Asian countries about American films using Asian actors irrespective of national origin, but mostly involving specific films which already have problems. In general, as Asian markets have become more influential, Hollywood has mostly taken these criticisms on board.

But Asian diaspora communities in the US (or any other country for that matter) are not culturally identical to the culture of their ancestral country. They are Americans who are part of American culture, who usually identify with American culture, who overwhelmingly consume American culture, but who have Asian ancestry. What's concerning to a lot of these people is not that a foreign culture is impinging their national honour, but that their own culture is still white dominated, that their own culture is still not willing to include them, it's not willing to allow people who look like them to be anything other than a sideshow in their own media.

My basic idea is that these decisions are all being based on primarily financial reasons, so if there's someone as big as Bruce Lee, they'll make a dozen films a year with him again like they did back in the day.

Right, but then why is financial success percieved to be predicated on having a white person star in your film? Why are there literally no Asian actors who are percieved to be able to carry a film of this size? Why is this mantra that "colour doesn't sell" allowed to stand?

Again, what message do you think it sends to Asian Americans about the society they live in that the people who make their films genuinely believe that noone will watch a film which stars someone who looks like them?

Not to mention, white actors are permitted to fail. Noone ever asks when Johnny Depp makes another grotesque bomb "hmm, well maybe the problem is that he's white and whiteness doesn't sell."

I in general reject the "white culture" notion, since I come from Europe and there everyone's white but you have various different cultures. I do recognize the stereotype of white culture, something about being intolerant of spice in food, being bad at dancing, being lame and being sticklers for rules/boring, but that's not any more real than any other ignorant stereotype.

I also come from Europe, there are plenty of non-white people here.

Do you see being part of these European cultures as predicated on being white? Do you think that is true in the US?

People who like to grasp at some form of "white identity" because they have no actual identity will try to make it sound like white culture but it's just American culture nowadays. You know, burgers and pizza and guns and freedom to shoot your uncle in the dick while riding a monster truck. That's American culture.

So, have you noticed that all those things you just mentioned are stereotypes of white Americans?

Again, do you think that white Americans have a monopoly on American culture?

My point is that we all live in this society because we share so much of that media.

Sure, but we don't actually live in the society that produced that media.

At best, media produced in another society shapes our expectations of the society we live in and brings about subtle social change, resulting in cultural homogenization (which may be what you're talking about). But, to put it bluntly, you've already outed yourself when you said "I come from Europe and there everyone's white". If you live in a society where everyone is white, how do you deal with media produced in a society where everyone isn't white, or where race is an actual day to day reality rather than an abstract concept? It's foreign to you. It's not a real reflection of the society you live in.

 

[Satinavian]

If you live in a society where everyone is white, how do you deal with media produced in a society where everyone isn't white, or where race is an actual day to day reality rather than an abstract concept? It's foreign to you. It's not a real reflection of the society you live in.

And ?

Personally i have no problems whatsoever of enjoying Japanese or Chinese films without a single white character. It doesn't bother me at all.

Now, i was annoyed that the role in of the Mayor was given to a white actress. And Hollywood does certainly has its problems. But my annoyance came alone from the seeming and unnecessary mismatch to the source material, not from the fact that Hollywood likes white actors. It is not like if i consume that much Hollywood fare anyway.

 

[twistedmic]

Sure, but this isn't about "specific countries and their specific cultures".

I mean, again, there have been controversies in Asian countries about American films using Asian actors irrespective of national origin, but mostly involving specific films which already have problems.

Where and when were these controversies? In the last decade or so the only outcry I hear is coming from Americans claiming that Asians aren't getting enough acting roles. Gone are the days where someone as white as John Wayne would be cast as Genghis Khan or a black wig and a pair of buckskins was enough for someone to be cast as Native American. We don't use blackface anymore, nor do we have white people doing extremely offensive caricatures of Asians (happened in the sixties and seventies).
Nowadays if a character is explicitly stated as being Asian they are played by an Asian character- probably more often than not the specific nationality of that actor.

In general, as Asian markets have become more influential, Hollywood has mostly taken these criticisms on board.

Let's be honest here. It's China. China has become more 'influential' because the Chinese movie market pulls in a shitload of cash. And American movie companies play by China's rules so that their movies will play in China so they can make money, not out of some kind-hearted attempt to honor Asian actors or creative stance. It's all about making money.

Not to mention, white actors are permitted to fail. Noone ever asks when Johnny Depp makes another grotesque bomb "hmm, well maybe the problem is that he's white and whiteness doesn't sell."

Really? Because from what I hear Johnny Depp has become a joke, a sad, pathetic shell of his former self. and he was 'allowed' to fail several times because he had a long string of successful roles (starting in 1984) under his belt before his career went into a nosedive.
If being white guaranteed an actor's success post-flop then Kevin Costner, Geena Davis, Mike Myers, Brandon Routh, Chris O'donell, Alicia Silverstone and Brendan Frasier aren't white.

 

[Callate]

I wasn't sorry I saw it, but it wasn't great.

It did a good job re-creating some of the more iconic scenes from the anime (I thought the cloaked fight in the reflective water was particularly nicely done), but being told that we're suddenly supposed to suddenly feel sympathetic towards a terrorist who had been enslaving innocents because he was treated badly kind of broke the clutch, so to speak.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

It was just an okay, unambitious, meaningless adaptation on par with dubbing or translating something. Its only merit was to abridge the original work so more people could become exposed to it. But so much of what made the original 1995 animated movie special is lost when the medium and historical context are ignored that you're left with an impactless, watered-down version that can only think in terms of shot-by-shot and beat-by-beat accuracy.

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

It's kinda boring. It doesn't really have anything interesting going on, besides some pretty visuals. It's at best an 'apt' adaptation.
Now that i think about it, it's probably the most 5/10 movie i've seen recent years.

 

[Harrycanyon1982]

I've never been a fan of the original movies but i like the series! i always liked Ninja Scroll and Akira the most better, but i enjoyed this and thought it was an enjoyable sci-fi film and nice performance by Scarlett Johanason.

One of my faves of 2017.

 

[JUMBO PALACE]

It's just one of those movies where it's clear from the outset that it's going to pale in comparison to the original, so why the hell even bother. It's like remaking Ben-Hur, or The Shinning, or Robocop.

Isn't it sad that two of these have already happened? I'm sure they'll get around to The Shining at some point.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

It's just one of those movies where it's clear from the outset that it's going to pale in comparison to the original, so why the hell even bother. It's like remaking Ben-Hur, or The Shinning, or Robocop.

Isn't it sad that two of these have already happened? I'm sure they'll get around to The Shining at some point.

Not sure if Sarcasm, but The Shining was the one who was remade the first.

Starting the Irresponsible Brother from 'Wings' [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118460/fullcredits].

 

[Trunkage]

It's just one of those movies where it's clear from the outset that it's going to pale in comparison to the original, so why the hell even bother. It's like remaking Ben-Hur, or The Shinning, or Robocop.

Isn't it sad that two of these have already happened? I'm sure they'll get around to The Shining at some point.

Not sure if Sarcasm, but The Shining was the one who was remade the first.

Starting the Irresponsible Brother from 'Wings' [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118460/fullcredits].

I had no idea that Shining existed. There is probably a reason why

 

[Vanilla ISIS]

And what was exactly wrong?

According to a lot of critics, the skin color of the lead actress.

 

[BrawlMan]

I refused to see it due to how boring, average, run-of-the-mill it looked. Not mention, it was just taking bits and pieces from different parts of the franchise without understanding why they worked. The only robot girl movie I look forward to seeing is Battle Angel Alita. And that's next year unfortunately, but two months down the line. If the Japanese like movie, more power to them, but Scarlett can barely hold a lead role, and I find her uninteresting as an actress. See the movie Lucy to know what I am talking about.

 

[Gatx]

Let's flip the scenario around for a bit, should we expect the Japanese film industry to cast an America/European actor in a movie that calls for a non-Japanese role? Should we get mad if they rarely, if ever, cast American/European actors in lead roles?
Should we expect the British/French/Chinese/etc. film industries to cast non-(insert country here) actors for the sole purpose of having that particular nationality on screen?

It's not quite the same thing for two reasons. The first is that there are PLENTY of movies with white actors in lead roles. Yes, these are Hollywood movies and other countries have their own film industries, but that leads into point two, Hollywood movies dominate the film landscape around the world. Remember when there was that controversy with Matt Damon being the headliner of a Chinese movie? That was because Chinese filmmakers felt like to have a real, Hollywood-style blockbuster movie you needed a white actor in the lead role. Which is all to say that white people have enough representation in the media already, even in Asia.

 

[twistedmic]

That was because Chinese filmmakers felt like to have a real, Hollywood-style blockbuster movie you needed a white actor in the lead role. Which is all to say that white people have enough representation in the media already, even in Asia.

First of all, did you watch the movie? Damon was not the lead character, the Chinese actress Tian Jing was the lead character. Damon was at best a secondary character.
Secondly, after watching the Chinese trailers I barely saw a glimpse of Matt Damon. The Chinese trailers mainly featured the Chinese characters and their combat units.