I liked Star Wars:TFA but....characterization

[Orga777]

I am sorry, but I just can't buy into this.

Well that's your prerogative. I have very little motivation to try and convince you of the merits of a piece of escapist media. There's more than sufficient evidence in the film to allow for informed speculation on what's going on, but if people want to hand wave it or view it as "excuses", they are free to do so.

So she was well-trained at like five years old to do Force abilities on the level of a fully trained Jedi Knight after only a couple seconds of trying? Cause that is the only thing the "evidence" would point to. :/

 

[Lightknight]

I am sorry, but I just can't buy into this.

Well that's your prerogative. I have very little motivation to try and convince you of the merits of a piece of escapist media. There's more than sufficient evidence in the film to allow for informed speculation on what's going on, but if people want to hand wave it or view it as "excuses", they are free to do so.

So she was well-trained at like five years old to do Force abilities on the level of a fully trained Jedi Knight after only a couple seconds of trying? Cause that is the only thing the "evidence" would point to. :/

I think I might consider instead that she has a lot of raw talent and that Ren is currently at war with himself. Especially considering what he had just done and that he was wounded (shot, remember? Also struck by Finn with a saber, all before her turn).

But yeah, she was certainly going faster than others had before. Though remember that Luke wasn't really shown the force until Yoda whereas Rey was being shown the force by Ren.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

So she was well-trained at like five years old to do Force abilities on the level of a fully trained Jedi Knight after only a couple seconds of trying? Cause that is the only thing the "evidence" would point to. :/

This is the kind of thing that just makes me exasperated discussing this character. There's no such thing as reasoned debate or criticism. It's all absurd hyperbole. She's not talented or resourceful, she's THE BEST AT EVERYTHING. She doesn't have two exchanges with Han on his ship, she KNOWS THE FALCON BETTER THAN HAN AND SCHOOLS HIM ON FLYING IT. She doesn't overcome adversity, she NEVER FACES ADVERSITY AT ALL. She doesn't get rescued even during her clear rescue, she WOULD HAVE RESCUED HERSELF EVENTUALLY WITHOUT ASSISTANCE. She doesn't barely overcome a badly wounded, partially trained and emotionally erratic Kylo Ren, she EASILY DEFEATS A SITH LORD. She doesn't show evidence of being an atypically powerful force sensitive, she's A FULLY TRAINED JEDI KNIGHT.

Even if I had some concerns about her characterization, they'd be drowned out by the vociferous Rey-haters. And let's be clear, this wasn't a gritty historical drama, this is an ongoing space fantasy in which mystical forces are perpetually employed by the writers as ass-pulls and the Rule of Cool outweighs narrative exposition by a ratio of about 100:1. In this environment, I'm to believe this character is canon-shattering and cannot be believed.

To quote your pre-edit post..."Okay, bro".

 

[Orga777]

I think I might consider instead that she has a lot of raw talent and that Ren is currently at war with himself. Especially considering what he had just done and that he was wounded (shot, remember? Also struck by Finn with a saber, all before her turn).

But yeah, she was certainly going faster than others had before. Though remember that Luke wasn't really shown the force until Yoda whereas Rey was being shown the force by Ren.

She was shown the Force by Ren as a weapon. Not how to use it herself. It would be like Luke mastering the Jedi mindtrick just because he saw Obi-Wan do it that one time. Being a Jedi should be a lot harder than "just because."

 

[BloatedGuppy]

She was shown the Force by Ren as a weapon. Not how to use it herself.

Quoted the wrong guy. And as to the bolded part, you don't know this.

 

[Orga777]

So she was well-trained at like five years old to do Force abilities on the level of a fully trained Jedi Knight after only a couple seconds of trying? Cause that is the only thing the "evidence" would point to. :/

This is the kind of thing that just makes me exasperated discussing this character. There's no such thing as reasoned debate or criticism. It's all absurd hyperbole. She's not talented or resourceful, she's THE BEST AT EVERYTHING. She doesn't have two exchanges with Han on his ship, she KNOWS THE FALCON BETTER THAN HAN AND SCHOOLS HIM ON FLYING IT. She doesn't overcome adversity, she NEVER FACES ADVERSITY AT ALL. She doesn't get rescued even during her clear rescue, she WOULD HAVE RESCUED HERSELF EVENTUALLY WITHOUT ASSISTANCE. She doesn't barely overcome a badly wounded, partially trained and emotionally erratic Kylo Ren, she EASILY DEFEATS A SITH LORD. She doesn't show evidence of being an atypically powerful force sensitive, she's A FULLY TRAINED JEDI KNIGHT.

Even if I had some concerns about her characterization, they'd be drowned out by the vociferous Rey-haters. And let's be clear, this wasn't a gritty historical drama, this is an ongoing space fantasy in which mystical forces are perpetually employed by the writers as ass-pulls and the Rule of Cool outweighs narrative exposition by a ratio of about 100:1. In this environment, I'm to believe this character is canon-shattering and cannot be believed.

To quote your pre-edit post..."Okay, bro".

I don't hate Rey. She is just too perfect with the Force for me to get involved with her character right now. If she didn't get into the fight at the end, I wouldn't even complain a whole lot about her (except for the Jedi Mind Trick thing.) I also don't care if Ren is still learning himself and was wounded. He shouldn't have trouble with an untrained combatant that just learned what a Lightsaber is in the first place, and had literally nobody guiding her with how to use the Force. Kylo Ren was able to stop blaster bolts in mid-air. He was able to wipe out Luke's new Jedi Order without anyone even hurting him. And he didn't just lose, he was completely humiliated against Rey. Like he never got into a fight before. These are fair complaints. I actually bought into her resourcefulness on board the Falcon. I just wrote that stuff off as her experience dealing with technology on a daily basis, so she understands the basic fundamentals of how a ship would work and how to pilot one. Almost all my complaints come into how she uses the Force better than any other fresh Jedi we have ever seen before with no real training showing how to do anything. It just doesn't work for me. It would be like Luke just doing everything all on his own in A New Hope after a couple minutes of training with Obi-Wan. I just doesn't work.

Also, your complete dismissal of this being an action adventure space fantasy as an excuse for poorly implemented writing is not going to work on me.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

He was able to wipe out Luke's new Jedi Order without anyone even hurting him.

He had help for that. You see him and all the assembled knights during Rey's Force vision. During which, by the way, it looks very much like she is cowering on the ground with a weapon coming for her head when Kylo Ren kills the man swinging at her. Which would have placed her at the "school" among the Padawans.

And he didn't just lose, he was completely humiliated against Rey.

He hammered her back to a cliff and had her teetering on the brink of death. Finn was totally humiliated. Kylo Ren lost a fight.

These are fair complaints.

They're overstated complaints. The bowcaster is forecast FIVE TIMES (I counted on second viewing) as an EXCEPTIONALLY POWERFUL WEAPON that BLOWS PEOPLE OFF THEIR FEET. He gets shot in the stomach with one, we watch it happen. We later watch him pounding the wound to wind up his anger, spattering blood everywhere. He didn't get nicked with a blaster. A lot of time and effort was put into establishing that bowcaster. It's not a "Meh" injury. Neither is Snoke's command to "bring the girl to me" or Kylo's insistence on capturing Rey so he can train her irrelevant to the events.

If it helps, I think it would have been more interesting if Rey had taken a wound during that fight as well. I do, however, think they're trying to communicate something about Rey, and her "turning on" that way is part of it.

I actually bought into her resourcefulness on board the Falcon.

I was fine with all of it (frankly, it's all very well covered) with the possible exception of her beginning the sentence that Han ends. I'm not one with the "REY IS THE BEST PILOT IN THE GALAXY WARRRRGARBLE" crowd, but I do think her technical wizardry had been sufficiently established. There's such a thing as overkill.

Almost all my complaints come into how she uses the Force better than any other fresh Jedi we have ever seen before with no real training showing how to do anything. It just doesn't work for me.

And all I can say is...there's a ton of evidence that there's a lot going on with Rey. If she was positioned as a random force sensitive kid I'd agree. She's not.

Also, your complete dismissal of this being an action adventure space fantasy as an excuse for poorly implemented writing is not going to work on me.

1. I don't agree that the writing is poorly implemented
2. I'm calling attention to the fact that there's a large body of people who are perfectly comfortable with and will even vehemently defend Deus Ex Force-ina the previous films, and then balk at them at the beginning of this (unfinished) trilogy when confronted by a character we still know virtually nothing about. From Luke to Anakin to Revan we've had a parade of godlike Jedi whirling away at the center of mighty prophecies, and we're not just comfortable with it, we love it. We get chapter one of a three chapter series, and our mystery-riddled protagonist does some Force stuff, and it's all "FOUL, FOUL, IMPOSSIBLE!". You'll permit me a raised eyebrow.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Or using them to get the missiles over the exhaust port where they curve themselves. That would actually make sense given that if the computer was telling it where to curve, they could fire from any distance and it would curve. But they wait until they're a specific distance away before they fire, the missiles were likely on fuses.

Okay, this point has been bugging me more and more whenever you bring it up and I cant take it anymore.

Why the hell would an engineer design a missile -a weapon almost exclusively meant for three dimensional air to air combat- in such a way that it automatically turns downward after a set amount of time?

That just doesnt make any sense. It completely negates the weapon's primary purpose of taking out aircraft or aircraft-like spacecraft.

It has a fuse to do so? Apparently if you pay attention when they're going over the plan, the top of the exhaust port is covered so they can't shoot in straight (I know I never personally noticed). So perhaps they engineered these missiles specifically to do so?

But WHY do it that way? Now they have a bunch of missiles that are completely useless except for this one specific situation that only happens once in one mission and never happens ever again.

If we're going the route of "let's custom engineer a bunch of hyper-specialized missiles that are useless for anything but the target of this one mission alone," why wouldnt they program a custom Death Star targeting mode and upload it into all of the X-Wings' targeting computers?

Then you only have to do it once as opposed to like 16 times, one for each missile, AND you dont gimp the combat effectiveness of all of your fighters on the mission or any other future fighter that might have the misfortune to equip any leftover missiles later down the line.

But have we established that the targeting computer communicates with the missile in flight? What if guidance is already on the missiles?

EDIT: going by what somebody in the 70's would think of missile technology, before things like GPS and laser guidance came into the public mind.

That's literally the entire point behind a targeting computer. How do you think it's supposed to work, the computer takes an intended target, calculates a velocity vector that intersects with the target, downloads it to the missile and THEN fires it without communicating with it after that point? Such a weapon could be trivially defeated by the just changing their velocity vector, an advanced dog-fighting technique also known as "Moving literally anywhere else."

Unless the missile itself was smart. Remember the targeting computer is also used for dummy shots like the lasers.

EDIT: Of course Guppy is right that it's mostly overthinking what's going on.

Didnt you just state that you were basing the entire premise on "what somebody in the 70's would think of missile technology, before things like GPS and laser guidance came into the public mind."?

So GPS and laser guidance are out, but smart missiles arent?

Computers miniaturized and cheap enough to be disposable? Easy. Having a missile see a laser pointer? Preposterous.

How is it any more preposterous than cheap tiny computers to a 70s audience?

Because they were watching computers getting miniaturized by then. The Apple I and Commodore Pet were already out by the time the movie came out.

So that's one half. What's the other?

Because, if I'm not mistaken, laser guidance wasn't a thing for a couple of decades and GPS wasn't happening until the 90's (not that GPS would even be useful in the context of the Deathstar run).

Well, you are mistaken. The first laser guided bomb was created in 1968, and were first used operationally in 1972.

Ah, so it is. Of course, that wouldn't be useful in the trench run either unless the missiles were programmed to curve anyway since light travels in a straight line as well.

 

[Orga777]

He had help for that. You see him and all the assembled knights during Rey's Force vision. During which, by the way, it looks very much like she is cowering on the ground with a weapon coming for her head when Kylo Ren kills the man swinging at her. Which would have placed her at the "school" among the Padawans.

Fair point. But he still didn't receive a single wound. Unless he didn't fight anybody. Even with help this seems unlikely.

He hammered her back to a cliff and had her teetering on the brink of death. Finn was totally humiliated. Kylo Ren lost a fight.

And then she gained a second wind and blasted his butt like she was some Shonen anime character. It was a very ehh moment. If she lost the fight but still wounded him, I would have been more okay with that. Heck even if there was no decision before the planet breaking apart separates them before they can finish, I would have been okay with. But that isn't what happened. She won when she really shouldn't have.

They're overstated complaints. The bowcaster is forecast FIVE TIMES (I counted on second viewing) as an EXCEPTIONALLY POWERFUL WEAPON that BLOWS PEOPLE OFF THEIR FEET. He gets shot in the stomach with one, we watch it happen. We later watch him pounding the wound to wind up his anger, spattering blood everywhere. He didn't get nicked with a blaster. A lot of time and effort was put into establishing that bowcaster. It's not a "Meh" injury. Neither is Snoke's command to "bring the girl to me" or Kylo's insistence on capturing Rey so he can train her irrelevant to the events.

Oh, I know all that. The Bowcaster is awesome. However, even wounded, a seasoned Force sensitive, even if still a Padawan himself, shouldn't lose to a greenhorn that doesn't even fully understand the powers she has right now. It underminds his presence too much to take him seriously and makes him look weak.

And all I can say is...there's a ton of evidence that there's a lot going on with Rey. If she was positioned as a random force sensitive kid I'd agree. She's not.

And there was a ton going on with Anakin in the Prequels, but even those horrendously written movies didn't have him winning fights he had no business winning against higher trained combatants.

1. I don't agree that the writing is poorly implemented
2. I'm calling attention to the fact that there's a large body of people who are perfectly comfortable with and will even vehemently defend Deus Ex Force-ina the previous films, and then balk at them at the beginning of this (unfinished) trilogy when confronted by a character we still know virtually nothing about. From Luke to Anakin to Revan we've had a parade of godlike Jedi whirling away at the center of mighty prophecies, and we're not just comfortable with it, we love it. We get chapter one of a three chapter series, and our mystery-riddled protagonist does some Force stuff, and it's all "FOUL, FOUL, IMPOSSIBLE!". You'll permit me a raised eyebrow.

Luke and Anakin never mastered the Jedi Mind Trick in seconds with no real training, and neither of them were able to out-duel force adepts in their first real fights. Neither of them were able to out Force their higher trained opponents either, like Rey did to Ren. It is all about implementation. If she did all this in the second film, I would be all for it and without a single real complaint. But she mastered abilities that usually takes time for Jedi-in-training all on her own in no real time or effort put in. That is what I have a problem with.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Or using them to get the missiles over the exhaust port where they curve themselves. That would actually make sense given that if the computer was telling it where to curve, they could fire from any distance and it would curve. But they wait until they're a specific distance away before they fire, the missiles were likely on fuses.

Okay, this point has been bugging me more and more whenever you bring it up and I cant take it anymore.

Why the hell would an engineer design a missile -a weapon almost exclusively meant for three dimensional air to air combat- in such a way that it automatically turns downward after a set amount of time?

That just doesnt make any sense. It completely negates the weapon's primary purpose of taking out aircraft or aircraft-like spacecraft.

It has a fuse to do so? Apparently if you pay attention when they're going over the plan, the top of the exhaust port is covered so they can't shoot in straight (I know I never personally noticed). So perhaps they engineered these missiles specifically to do so?

But WHY do it that way? Now they have a bunch of missiles that are completely useless except for this one specific situation that only happens once in one mission and never happens ever again.

If we're going the route of "let's custom engineer a bunch of hyper-specialized missiles that are useless for anything but the target of this one mission alone," why wouldnt they program a custom Death Star targeting mode and upload it into all of the X-Wings' targeting computers?

Then you only have to do it once as opposed to like 16 times, one for each missile, AND you dont gimp the combat effectiveness of all of your fighters on the mission or any other future fighter that might have the misfortune to equip any leftover missiles later down the line.

But have we established that the targeting computer communicates with the missile in flight? What if guidance is already on the missiles?

EDIT: going by what somebody in the 70's would think of missile technology, before things like GPS and laser guidance came into the public mind.

That's literally the entire point behind a targeting computer. How do you think it's supposed to work, the computer takes an intended target, calculates a velocity vector that intersects with the target, downloads it to the missile and THEN fires it without communicating with it after that point? Such a weapon could be trivially defeated by the just changing their velocity vector, an advanced dog-fighting technique also known as "Moving literally anywhere else."

Unless the missile itself was smart. Remember the targeting computer is also used for dummy shots like the lasers.

EDIT: Of course Guppy is right that it's mostly overthinking what's going on.

Didnt you just state that you were basing the entire premise on "what somebody in the 70's would think of missile technology, before things like GPS and laser guidance came into the public mind."?

So GPS and laser guidance are out, but smart missiles arent?

Computers miniaturized and cheap enough to be disposable? Easy. Having a missile see a laser pointer? Preposterous.

How is it any more preposterous than cheap tiny computers to a 70s audience?

Because they were watching computers getting miniaturized by then. The Apple I and Commodore Pet were already out by the time the movie came out.

So that's one half. What's the other?

Because, if I'm not mistaken, laser guidance wasn't a thing for a couple of decades and GPS wasn't happening until the 90's (not that GPS would even be useful in the context of the Deathstar run).

Well, you are mistaken. The first laser guided bomb was created in 1968, and were first used operationally in 1972.

Ah, so it is. Of course, that wouldn't be useful in the trench run either unless the missiles were programmed to curve anyway since light travels in a straight line as well.

A: It never specifically states that the X-Wings use lasers. There are plenty of options it could use.

B: What, you mean something a targeting computer might be used for?

Before we continue on, do you believe Luke used telekinesis to curve the missiles mid flight?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Fair point. But he still didn't receive a single wound. Unless he didn't fight anybody. Even with help this seems unlikely.

We have no idea if he gets wounded or not. We see the aftermath of the battle and that's it. Given the characterization of the event by Han, it's very likely it was ambush and murder, not a bunch of Jedi duels. And being a Skywalker himself, Kylo was probably more dangerous than the rest of the force sensitives by order of magnitude. Save one, which it looks very likely he spared.

And then she gained a second wind and blasted his butt like she was some Shonen anime character. It was a very ehh moment. If she lost the fight but still wounded him, I would have been more okay with that. Heck even if there was no decision before the planet breaking apart separates them before they can finish, I would have been okay with. But that isn't what happened. She won when she really shouldn't have.

That wasn't a second wind, that was her clearing her mind and letting the Force guide her, much as Ben and Yoda continually instruct Luke to do. That is the focus of ALL his training, on "clearing his mind". Kylo Ren's is anything but clear, he's a cluster fuck of rage and confusion.

Oh, I know all that. The Bowcaster is awesome. However, even wounded, a seasoned Force sensitive, even if still a Padawan himself, shouldn't lose to a greenhorn that doesn't even fully understand the powers she has right now. It underminds his presence too much to take him seriously and makes him look weak.

Well, I do not concur. I think he's a fascinating villain. He was given plenty of strength beats to moderate his one defeat (at the hands of a trio of primary characters, no less, after murdering a fourth). We've come to have ludicrously high standards for our villains if he doesn't constitute a genuine threat because he lost while wounded to the only other Force Sensitive in the galaxy as ridiculously OP as him.

And there was a ton going on with Anakin in the Prequels, but even those horrendously written movies didn't have him winning fights he had no business winning against higher trained combatants.

...

...

"Let's try spinning, that's a good trick!".

Dude he literally blows up the Droid Control ship and ends the entire conflict in the first film.

Luke and Anakin never mastered the Jedi Mind Trick in seconds with no real training

Who "trained" Luke to use the Jedi mind trick? Both his teachers were dead. Did he practice it? How? Do you do Jedi Mind Trick reps until you get good at it? I've said before and I'll say again, the notion that Jedi go to Jedi School to level up and unlock new Jedi powers is ludicrous, and one of the stupidest things in the prequels/EU. In OT mythology, it was all a question of how Force Sensitive you were, and how much of that power you can tap into at any given moment through clarity and connection to the Force. Yoda tells Luke to lift his ship out of the swamp. He doesn't say "First practice Force Lift for many months, you must, starting with small rocks". He wants him to lift the ship and is dismayed when he can't. He doesn't hand wave it as the logical limitation of an "untrained Jedi", it's clear he thinks its caused by an unfocused and emotionally compromised mind.

Neither of them were able to out Force their higher trained opponents either, like Rey did to Ren.

Ren knocks Rey the fuck out TWICE in the film. She only "out forces" him once, after a very long fight that she was steadily losing.

I'll say this...she definitely needs a higher grade of adversity in the second film, to avoid "Superman" syndrome. I don't want another Legolas/Gimli/Aragorn situation where the protagonist breezes through opponents like wheat for an entire trilogy. I don't argue she's a perfect character. I simply argue that her flaws get overstated by her detractors, which isn't something happening for ANY of the other principles (aside from perhaps Kylo Ren, although I might be defensive about him on the grounds of my belief he's the best character we've seen in these films to date), nor is that degree of fussiness applied to other escapist cinema (Superhero films being primary culprits in the "OP protagonist" territory, it seems to be considered part and parcel of the genre).

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Or using them to get the missiles over the exhaust port where they curve themselves. That would actually make sense given that if the computer was telling it where to curve, they could fire from any distance and it would curve. But they wait until they're a specific distance away before they fire, the missiles were likely on fuses.

Okay, this point has been bugging me more and more whenever you bring it up and I cant take it anymore.

Why the hell would an engineer design a missile -a weapon almost exclusively meant for three dimensional air to air combat- in such a way that it automatically turns downward after a set amount of time?

That just doesnt make any sense. It completely negates the weapon's primary purpose of taking out aircraft or aircraft-like spacecraft.

It has a fuse to do so? Apparently if you pay attention when they're going over the plan, the top of the exhaust port is covered so they can't shoot in straight (I know I never personally noticed). So perhaps they engineered these missiles specifically to do so?

But WHY do it that way? Now they have a bunch of missiles that are completely useless except for this one specific situation that only happens once in one mission and never happens ever again.

If we're going the route of "let's custom engineer a bunch of hyper-specialized missiles that are useless for anything but the target of this one mission alone," why wouldnt they program a custom Death Star targeting mode and upload it into all of the X-Wings' targeting computers?

Then you only have to do it once as opposed to like 16 times, one for each missile, AND you dont gimp the combat effectiveness of all of your fighters on the mission or any other future fighter that might have the misfortune to equip any leftover missiles later down the line.

But have we established that the targeting computer communicates with the missile in flight? What if guidance is already on the missiles?

EDIT: going by what somebody in the 70's would think of missile technology, before things like GPS and laser guidance came into the public mind.

That's literally the entire point behind a targeting computer. How do you think it's supposed to work, the computer takes an intended target, calculates a velocity vector that intersects with the target, downloads it to the missile and THEN fires it without communicating with it after that point? Such a weapon could be trivially defeated by the just changing their velocity vector, an advanced dog-fighting technique also known as "Moving literally anywhere else."

Unless the missile itself was smart. Remember the targeting computer is also used for dummy shots like the lasers.

EDIT: Of course Guppy is right that it's mostly overthinking what's going on.

Didnt you just state that you were basing the entire premise on "what somebody in the 70's would think of missile technology, before things like GPS and laser guidance came into the public mind."?

So GPS and laser guidance are out, but smart missiles arent?

Computers miniaturized and cheap enough to be disposable? Easy. Having a missile see a laser pointer? Preposterous.

How is it any more preposterous than cheap tiny computers to a 70s audience?

Because they were watching computers getting miniaturized by then. The Apple I and Commodore Pet were already out by the time the movie came out.

So that's one half. What's the other?

Because, if I'm not mistaken, laser guidance wasn't a thing for a couple of decades and GPS wasn't happening until the 90's (not that GPS would even be useful in the context of the Deathstar run).

Well, you are mistaken. The first laser guided bomb was created in 1968, and were first used operationally in 1972.

Ah, so it is. Of course, that wouldn't be useful in the trench run either unless the missiles were programmed to curve anyway since light travels in a straight line as well.

A: It never specifically states that the X-Wings use lasers. There are plenty of options it could use.

B: What, you mean something a targeting computer might be used for?

Before we continue on, do you believe Luke used telekinesis to curve the missiles mid flight?

It's been a while since I saw the movie, but that sounds about right. I do remember the trajectory being a little too tight for it to be natural.

Then why does Luke suck at telekinesis in the next movie? Why did Luke's force training in that movie focus on sensing his surroundings? Why did everyone who talked about the difficulty of the mission mention how hard it was going to be to aim? If your complaint is that missiles with inbuilt guidance are inefficient, are you going to complain that there even is an exhaust port on the Deathstar? Is it venting hot gas? Where does the gas come from? Do they get more of it? There are plenty of inefficiencies in both military organizations. Could it be that the missiles aren't radio controlled because they could be defeated by throwing up a bunch of radio waves to drown out the signal?

 

[Orga777]

That wasn't a second wind, that was her clearing her mind and letting the Force guide her, much as Ben and Yoda continually instruct Luke to do. That is the focus of ALL his training, on "clearing his mind". Kylo Ren's is anything but clear, he's a cluster fuck of rage and confusion.

Rage won the duel for Luke in Jedi. Sith always fight with rage. Her clearing her mind shouldn't just give her an instant win against someone better trained than herself. It just... bothers me.

Well, I do not concur. I think he's a fascinating villain. He was given plenty of strength beats to moderate his one defeat (at the hands of a trio of primary characters, no less, after murdering a fourth). We've come to have ludicrously high standards for our villains if he doesn't constitute a genuine threat because he lost while wounded to the only other Force Sensitive in the galaxy as ridiculously OP as him.

Oh, he is a good character, but his threat level is borderline non-existant. If Luke gets involved, he would be crushed like a grape. Also, a Force Sensitive that has no real training shouldn't just automatically be OP. Luke was pathetic till Jedi, afterall.

"Let's try spinning, that's a good trick!".

Dude he literally blows up the Droid Control ship and ends the entire conflict in the first film.

As horrendous as that scene in question is, that isn't nearly as problematic when it comes to the use of the Force. Anakin was an established pilot in the beginning with that horribly drawn out Podrace scene, and while the Force was being used without his knowledge, it has less to do with using the Force to win battles rather than pilot instincts being used. There was no scene showing Rey should be mastering Force abilities with no effort put into it with limited to no training to do so. Also, the fact Anakin blew up the ship makes no sense. The ship has shields... How the heck did he even get in there? God, Episode I sucks...

Who "trained" Luke to use the Jedi mind trick? Both his teachers were dead. Did he practice it? How? Do you do Jedi Mind Trick reps until you get good at it? I've said before and I'll say again, the notion that Jedi go to Jedi School to level up and unlock new Jedi powers is ludicrous, and one of the stupidest things in the prequels/EU. In OT mythology, it was all a question of how Force Sensitive you were, and how much of that power you can tap into at any given moment through clarity and connection to the Force. Yoda tells Luke to lift his ship out of the swamp. He doesn't say "First practice Force Lift for many months, you must, starting with small rocks". He wants him to lift the ship and is dismayed when he can't. He doesn't hand wave it as the logical limitation of an "untrained Jedi", it's clear he thinks its caused by an unfocused and emotionally compromised mind.

It doesn't matter how he learned the Jedi mind Trick. The fact is that it took a lot of time to master. He didn't do it till Jedi, after two films, and a lot more meditating, training, and self discovery in between Empire and Jedi, while inside Obi-Wan's old house, which I am sure had some things laying around about the Jedi Order. Rey never trained as a Jedi in Episode VII. She shouldn't even understand the basics of the Force and what she is capable of right now.

Ren knocks Rey the fuck out TWICE in the film. She only "out forces" him once, after a very long fight that she was steadily losing.

I am talking about how she was able to take the Lightsaber away with a Force Pull when Kylo Ren was doing the same Force Pull on the same Lightsaber. That scene might bother me the most. XD

I'll say this...she definitely needs a higher grade of adversity in the second film, to avoid "Superman" syndrome. I don't want another Legolas/Gimli/Aragorn situation where the protagonist breezes through opponents like wheat for an entire trilogy. I don't argue she's a perfect character. I simply argue that her flaws get overstated by her detractors, which isn't something happening for ANY of the other principles (aside from perhaps Kylo Ren, although I might be defensive about him on the grounds of my belief he's the best character we've seen in these films to date), nor is that degree of fussiness applied to other escapist cinema (Superhero films being primary culprits in the "OP protagonist" territory, it seems to be considered part and parcel of the genre).

And I will agree with almost all of this. This movie got me excited for the future films, but on its own, it is just... okay. It isn't as good as any of the films in the original trilogy. Even ignoring the character issues i isn't as good as the original trilogy. There are just too many plot decisions that keep it constrained.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Rage won the duel for Luke in Jedi. Sith always fight with rage. Her clearing her mind shouldn't just give her an instant win against someone better trained than herself. It just... bothers me.

Single minded and focused rage. Kylo wasn't trying to kill her. If he had been, she'd likely have gone down much the same way Finn did. He wanted her submissive and under his control. And I'm pretty sure we're going to find out this isn't the first time he held back from killing her, too. She then wrong foots him and fights far better than he anticipates after her feeble attempts to use the saber like it was her staff, and gets himself in trouble. At that point, injuries and mental fraying compound and he gets banged up.

Is that what actually happened in the writer's head? Fucked if I know, but it's every bit as supportable a theory as "Rey is Super Saiyan".

Oh, he is a good character, but his threat level is borderline non-existant. If Luke gets involved, he would be crushed like a grape. Also, a Force Sensitive that has no real training shouldn't just automatically be OP. Luke was pathetic till Jedi, afterall.

Of the four primary protagonists in the film, he kills one, maims a second, knocks a third out twice and captures and tortures the fourth. He is dispatched by the team efforts of a legendary Wookie, a force sensitive prodigy, and a trained soldier. I'll say again...if this is an unthreatening villain, our standards for villains have gotten unsustainable.

As horrendous as that scene in question is, that isn't nearly as problematic when it comes to the use of the Force. Anakin was an established pilot in the beginning with that horribly drawn out Podrace scene, and while the Force was being used without his knowledge, it has less to do with using the Force to win battles rather than pilot instincts being used.

Qui-Gon makes it clear he's using the Force to see the future, allowing for his ridiculous feats as a pilot. That said, let's not waste any more time drawing parallels with the fucking Phantom Menace, I think we can both agree it was terrible and being better than the Phantom Menace shouldn't be an admirable accomplishment.

It doesn't matter how he learned the Jedi mind Trick. The fact is that it took a lot of time to master.

Well it absolutely does if we're going to quibble about the application of "training". Who trained him? Did he train himself? We can speculate 'it took a long time to master' but it all took place off-screen. For all we see as an audience, it works the first time he does it.

He didn't do it till Jedi, after two films, and a lot more meditating, training, and self discovery in between Empire and Jedi...

That is all head canon. None of that takes place on screen.

She shouldn't even understand the basics of the Force and what she is capable of right now.

"She's beginning to test her powers, with every minute that passes she grows more dangerous". Kylo Ren seems to think she represents a rapidly spiraling threat. Why would he think that about a noob Force User who needs months if not years of meditation, training and self discovery before she can use abilities?

There's two ways you can go with it. "The writers don't know what the fuck they're doing and have violated Star Wars in its Star Wars hole", or "This deliberately cloaked-in-mystery protagonist presented to us by a writer/director who fucking LOVES mysteries and misdirects is more than she initially seems".

I am talking about how she was able to take the Lightsaber away with a Force Pull when Kylo Ren was doing the same Force Pull on the same Lightsaber. That scene might bother me the most. XD

I always attributed that to Maz's quote about the saber "calling" to her. We can certainly say that we've never seen The Force applied in this way previously (IE a link between a specific Jedi and an object) but each film of the OT introduced new Force Powers and applications as required by the story. The same should be allowed for here.

And I will agree with almost all of this. This movie got me excited for the future films, but on its own, it is just... okay. It isn't as good as any of the films in the original trilogy. Even ignoring the character issues i isn't as good as the original trilogy. There are just too many plot decisions that keep it constrained.

I enjoyed it more than ROTJ (which outside of the excellent Luke/Vader beats is absolutely riddled with problems, some of them quite serious, and a few that served as warning signs for the prequels) and A New Hope (which is objectively a better, leaner film with a tighter focus, the new one just entertains me more thanks to modernity). Empire remains the best Star Wars film.