I liked Star Wars:TFA but....characterization

[crimson5pheonix]

Or using them to get the missiles over the exhaust port where they curve themselves. That would actually make sense given that if the computer was telling it where to curve, they could fire from any distance and it would curve. But they wait until they're a specific distance away before they fire, the missiles were likely on fuses.

Okay, this point has been bugging me more and more whenever you bring it up and I cant take it anymore.

Why the hell would an engineer design a missile -a weapon almost exclusively meant for three dimensional air to air combat- in such a way that it automatically turns downward after a set amount of time?

That just doesnt make any sense. It completely negates the weapon's primary purpose of taking out aircraft or aircraft-like spacecraft.

It has a fuse to do so? Apparently if you pay attention when they're going over the plan, the top of the exhaust port is covered so they can't shoot in straight (I know I never personally noticed). So perhaps they engineered these missiles specifically to do so?

But WHY do it that way? Now they have a bunch of missiles that are completely useless except for this one specific situation that only happens once in one mission and never happens ever again.

If we're going the route of "let's custom engineer a bunch of hyper-specialized missiles that are useless for anything but the target of this one mission alone," why wouldnt they program a custom Death Star targeting mode and upload it into all of the X-Wings' targeting computers?

Then you only have to do it once as opposed to like 16 times, one for each missile, AND you dont gimp the combat effectiveness of all of your fighters on the mission or any other future fighter that might have the misfortune to equip any leftover missiles later down the line.

But have we established that the targeting computer communicates with the missile in flight? What if guidance is already on the missiles?

EDIT: going by what somebody in the 70's would think of missile technology, before things like GPS and laser guidance came into the public mind.

That's literally the entire point behind a targeting computer. How do you think it's supposed to work, the computer takes an intended target, calculates a velocity vector that intersects with the target, downloads it to the missile and THEN fires it without communicating with it after that point? Such a weapon could be trivially defeated by the just changing their velocity vector, an advanced dog-fighting technique also known as "Moving literally anywhere else."

Unless the missile itself was smart. Remember the targeting computer is also used for dummy shots like the lasers.

EDIT: Of course Guppy is right that it's mostly overthinking what's going on.

Didnt you just state that you were basing the entire premise on "what somebody in the 70's would think of missile technology, before things like GPS and laser guidance came into the public mind."?

So GPS and laser guidance are out, but smart missiles arent?

Computers miniaturized and cheap enough to be disposable? Easy. Having a missile see a laser pointer? Preposterous.

How is it any more preposterous than cheap tiny computers to a 70s audience?

Because they were watching computers getting miniaturized by then. The Apple I and Commodore Pet were already out by the time the movie came out.

So that's one half. What's the other?

Because, if I'm not mistaken, laser guidance wasn't a thing for a couple of decades and GPS wasn't happening until the 90's (not that GPS would even be useful in the context of the Deathstar run).

Well, you are mistaken. The first laser guided bomb was created in 1968, and were first used operationally in 1972.

Ah, so it is. Of course, that wouldn't be useful in the trench run either unless the missiles were programmed to curve anyway since light travels in a straight line as well.

A: It never specifically states that the X-Wings use lasers. There are plenty of options it could use.

B: What, you mean something a targeting computer might be used for?

Before we continue on, do you believe Luke used telekinesis to curve the missiles mid flight?

It's been a while since I saw the movie, but that sounds about right. I do remember the trajectory being a little too tight for it to be natural.

Then why does Luke suck at telekinesis in the next movie? Why did Luke's force training in that movie focus on sensing his surroundings? Why did everyone who talked about the difficulty of the mission mention how hard it was going to be to aim? If your complaint is that missiles with inbuilt guidance are inefficient, are you going to complain that there even is an exhaust port on the Deathstar? Is it venting hot gas? Where does the gas come from? Do they get more of it? There are plenty of inefficiencies in both military organizations. Could it be that the missiles aren't radio controlled because they could be defeated by throwing up a bunch of radio waves to drown out the signal?

The thing is, being aware of his surroundings doesn't change the fact that the missiles won't curve without their targeting system.

If it was a case of aiming fantastically, sure you could say he used the Force to aim, but physically curving would be impossible unless he used the Force to move them.

And I'm saying that it is absolutely reasonable to assume the missiles can curve without the targeting computer aboard the starfighter. You want the biggest nail in the coffin? If we assume that the targeting computer guides the missile mid flight, it would be reasonable to assume that the computer tells the missile when to detonate (it would have to if the sensing equipment was on the ship instead of the missile). So how do the ship and the missile communicate through half a moon's worth of bulkheads, people, weapons, quarters, and in proximity of a nuclear reactor?

You know what would work? A heat seeking missile. If it's fired into a thermal exhaust port, it's because there's a heat source at the bottom (the nuclear reactor). It just has to be set to trip at a certain temperature and boom, no need for communication with the targeting computer. And then it also keeps in line with narrative given before, during, and after the scene.

You are throwing away what narrative is laid out through two movies and hinging it on an assumption. And the assumption isn't even a very good one. If Luke just used telekinesis his previous force training scene is pointless, everyone talking about the accuracy is confusing, and Luke learning telekinesis in the next movie makes no sense.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Then why does Luke suck at telekinesis in the next movie?

Because the mass of a missile is far less than that of an entire fighter jet, and altering the orientation and velocity vector of a missile by about 90 degrees and letting it go that way in it's own takes a lot less energy than directly lifting a space ship directly up against the force of gravity and holding it there.

Well for one, he struggles to pull a lightsaber to his hand early in the movie. But also, are you sure it takes less energy to change the vector of the missiles by 90 degrees? Do we know how fast they're moving?

Why did Luke's force training in that movie focus on sensing his surroundings? Why did everyone who talked about the difficulty of the mission mention how hard it was going to be to aim?

I dunno. I already said I havent seen the movie in like 10 years.

The answer, of course, is because they were setting up the resolution as being one of Luke sensing his surroundings and aiming correctly.

If your complaint is that missiles with inbuilt guidance are inefficient, are you going to complain that there even is an exhaust port on the Deathstar?

You never said anything about inbuilt guidance. If they have inbuilt guidance systems, why do they need a fuse to make them turn downward by 90 degrees? If they have inbuilt guidance, what is the targeting computer even for?

The fuse was just an example of what they could do instead of having the computer guide the missile. There are numerous ways the missiles could work without the targeting computer to guide them.

Judging from how the computers were used with the various weapon systems, it calculated vectors and distances so that a shot would intersect a point at a specific time.

Is it venting hot gas? Where does the gas come from? Do they get more of it?

I would assume it's coming from whatever fuel they use to power the entire moon sized battle station.

EDIT: Hell, of the missiles are heat-seeking, maybe that's why they turn downward.

Which brings us here, if the missiles are heat seeking, you probably have to get them within the stream of heat, which means you have to get the missile within a two meter wide area. That's what the computer (and Luke's force perception) are for.

There are plenty of inefficiencies in both military organizations. Could it be that the missiles aren't radio controlled because they could be defeated by throwing up a bunch of radio waves to drown out the signal?

I never said anything about them being radio controlled.

Then how are they controlled that can't be beaten by throwing up some section of the EM spectrum and that also works through the mass of the Deathstar?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Then why does Luke suck at telekinesis in the next movie?

Because the mass of a missile is far less than that of an entire fighter jet, and altering the orientation and velocity vector of a missile by about 90 degrees and letting it go that way in it's own takes a lot less energy than directly lifting a space ship directly up against the force of gravity and holding it there.

Really? You ever try to knock over a bicycle going a thousand miles an hour? How about ten thousand? Physics isn't intuitive unless you actually know the physics. Momentum and inertia are stone cold bitches.

Well for one, he struggles to pull a lightsaber to his hand early in the movie. But also, are you sure it takes less energy to change the vector of the missiles by 90 degrees? Do we know how fast they're moving?

It's not like this thing has gyroscopic stabilization. Thrust is coming out the back of it. Turn the missile and you change where the thrust is pushing it towards, which changes the velocity vector.

Can a missile change it's velocity vector by itself? Yes. That's how it homes in.
Can a missile lift an aircraft?

Yes, but it still takes energy to change course, and more energy the faster something is moving. These missiles probably move very fast.

The fuse was just an example of what they could do instead of having the computer guide the missile. There are numerous ways the missiles could work without the targeting computer to guide them.

Judging from how the computers were used with the various weapon systems, it calculated vectors and distances so that a shot would intersect a point at a specific time.

Right, and if the targeting computer doesnt constantly update those vectors and communicate those changes with the missile, it becomes as easily dodgable as a blaster bolt. Unless it has another sort of guidance system, but you never brought that up before. You just had your fuse idea, which I already explained is a dumb idea for a weapon design.

I didn't have to bring up guidance systems before. By the narrative alone, Luke didn't curve the missiles. I was just being charitable and demonstrating how it COULD be done. And are you going to say the Star Wars universe is well known for it's intelligent and efficient weapon systems?

Which brings us here, if the missiles are heat seeking, you probably have to get them within the stream of heat, which means you have to get the missile within a two meter wide area. That's what the computer (and Luke's force perception) are for.

You dont need to get heat seeking missiles physically into the exhaust trail for them to work. They just have to see the source of heat in order to find it.

And would an ion engine like the one on the TIE fighter even make enough heat for the infrared guidance systems to even work?

And with no atmosphere and a linear exhaust, where is it going to reliably pick up the heat source?

I have no idea. I don't think we see the missiles get used against TIE fighters?

Then how are they controlled that can't be beaten by throwing up some section of the EM spectrum and that also works through the mass of the Deathstar?

Why would it need to be controlled? It's a straight chute. Just set the control systems to not change anything if it doesnt get any data.

If they aren't perfectly straight going down, they'll need to correct their courses a few times.

And I'm saying that it is absolutely reasonable to assume the missiles can curve without the targeting computer aboard the starfighter. You want the biggest nail in the coffin? If we assume that the targeting computer guides the missile mid flight, it would be reasonable to assume that the computer tells the missile when to detonate (it would have to if the sensing equipment was on the ship instead of the missile). So how do the ship and the missile communicate through half a moon's worth of bulkheads, people, weapons, quarters, and in proximity of a nuclear reactor?

...Or they could detonate based on a proximity sensor or kinetic impact sensor built into the nose of the missile.

And if the missiles have guidance, why does the shipboard computer have to communicate with them at all?

Like I said, there are many good ways to kill the assumption that the ship computer controls the missile. You have to work to make the assumption work, and your reward is to muddle the narrative structure of two movies. If your assumption isn't strong and only serves to make the movies make less sense, then why keep it up?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

If it helps at all, dont think of force sensitivity as a skill you can master. Think of it as an inherent ability that you just are.

This is how I've always perceived The Force in Star Wars as well. It's like a wellspring of power inside a person. "Training" is all about learning how to tap it at will and not letting it turn you into a power hungry lunatic, rather than the random burst of power that someone like Rey shows.

 

[WolfThomas]

are you going to complain that there even is an exhaust port on the Deathstar?

Woah woah woah. I know we're all getting stirred up. But that exhaust port is one of the most realistic details in any stars wars film.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Yes, but it still takes energy to change course, and more energy the faster something is moving. These missiles probably move very fast.

And most of that energy needed to change the velocity vector would be coming from the missile's own thruster.

If you change a rocket's orientation while it's thrusting, the thrust vector will change and the velocity vector will follow.

So how easy is it to change a car's course when it's at speed? If you're traveling at 80 MPH and slam your steering, does the car instantly turn?

I didn't have to bring up guidance systems before. By the narrative alone, Luke didn't curve the missiles. I was just being charitable and demonstrating how it COULD be done. And are you going to say the Star Wars universe is well known for it's intelligent and efficient weapon systems?

Well, yes. [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/HK-47]

To be fair, I did say weapon systems and not assassins.

And with no atmosphere and a linear exhaust, where is it going to reliably pick up the heat source?

Do you know how heat seeking works?

They do it through infrared imaging, using the infrared light emissions to track and follow a target until it hits it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_homing

You dont need to be in the hot exhaust or in any way hot at all to track heat. It works based on radiation, not convection.

Right, radiation is linear and there's no air to diffract it. The source of the IR isn't the vent, it's what's below the vent, so the sensor won't be able to see the IR source until it's over the vent.

If they aren't perfectly straight going down, they'll need to correct their courses a few times.

Assuming they know how wide and long the port is, that doesnt sound like a very hard thing to compensate for.

It's not, unless the missiles need the starfighter's computer to keep their positions in relation to each other straight.

And if the missiles have guidance, why does the shipboard computer have to communicate with them at all?

If the missiles have their own guidance that let them seek out their targets themselves, why are the targeting computers even IN damn machine? Just let it get a lock, fire, and forget like modern fighter jets.

For aiming the lasers and in this case, getting the missile within sufficient distance of the exhaust for the missiles to go into the shaft.

Like I said, there are many good ways to kill the assumption that the ship computer controls the missile. You have to work to make the assumption work, and your reward is to muddle the narrative structure of two movies. If your assumption isn't strong and only serves to make the movies make less sense, then why keep it up?

Because most of the engineering ideas you bring up to support your idea are completely terrible, and I really think your dislike of Rey is super overblown and not well supported by the either the new film or the original trilogy.

From my perspective, Gundam is basically Star Wars. Both are about a faction of rebels fighting a war against the standing government for independence using their own unique tech. Both have lasers and laser swords. Both have a supernatural power/ability present on both sides. Both have teenage protagonists adept with machines defeating the enemy side using their growing mastery of said power.

And the main character overcoming the technically more skilled opponent using their own superior inherent abilities (despite the fact that Ren fights like someone completely untrained with a sword, I'm just going on your own description) is a VERY Gundam thing.

You have Amuro managing to hold his own and even defeat Char -one of Zeon's top ace pilots and a Newtype hiself- pretty much exclusively due to the performance of his prototype machine and extremely powerful Newtype abilities.

If it helps at all, dont think of force sensitivity as a skill you can master. Think of it as an inherent ability that you just are, like being a Newtype.

The engineering ideas may be inefficient, but they work, and that's all that matters. I didn't start this off by designing a perfect weapon system, just merely showing that the assumption used to make the assertion isn't a strong one.

If you want to know the root of my problem here, Rey is far too competent to have an interesting character arc. This is made glaring when you compare to Luke or Amuro.

Like you bring up with Amuro, he only wins because his machine is better and it's acknowledged often. That leaves HIM room to grow as a pilot.

Comparing to Luke; Luke is almost killed by the sand people until he's saved by Kenobi, Luke is almost killed in Mos Eisley until he's saved by Kenobi, Luke is almost drowned and then crushed in the trash compactor until he's saved by the droids, Luke is almost shot down by Vader until he's saved by Han. Luke shows some skill, but it's made clear that he has a long way to go. The closest Rey gets to a situation like this is when she's captured by Ren, but she rapidly becomes immune to Ren's mind tricks and then turns it around on him. If she ever gets in trouble, she starts bailing herself out. It makes for a flat character, what is she going to learn in the next movie and why? Why wouldn't I just expect her to win her fights?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

And I'm saying that it is absolutely reasonable to assume the missiles can curve without the targeting computer aboard the starfighter. You want the biggest nail in the coffin? If we assume that the targeting computer guides the missile mid flight, it would be reasonable to assume that the computer tells the missile when to detonate (it would have to if the sensing equipment was on the ship instead of the missile). So how do the ship and the missile communicate through half a moon's worth of bulkheads, people, weapons, quarters, and in proximity of a nuclear reactor?

Well no the targeting computer would tell the missiles where to go before it fires and they'd explode on impact. Like missiles.

Only if they're set up that way. Not all missiles are set to explode on impact.

You know what would work? A heat seeking missile. If it's fired into a thermal exhaust port, it's because there's a heat source at the bottom (the nuclear reactor). It just has to be set to trip at a certain temperature and boom, no need for communication with the targeting computer. And then it also keeps in line with narrative given before, during, and after the scene.

Which would mean that there'd be no need for the targeting computer and they could just fire the missles so they pass over the exhaust port. All they'd need to do is tell the ships where to go to fire from, they wouldn't need the targeting computer. But they did need the targeting computer, and the heat seeking missiles would also target all the other sources of heat first (ships, turrets) rather than somehow detecting heat miles away.

No, because they need to get the missile over the exhaust port, which is (as they say often) only 2 meters wide. And with the distances people shoot at in space, a very small aiming error would make the shot miss wildly. And the missiles could be looking for a sufficiently high IR source. I bet a reactor puts out more heat than a turret.

You are throwing away what narrative is laid out through two movies and hinging it on an assumption. And the assumption isn't even a very good one. If Luke just used telekinesis his previous force training scene is pointless, everyone talking about the accuracy is confusing, and Luke learning telekinesis in the next movie makes no sense.

Luke's previous force training scene is to trust himself and do amazing things with the force. Everyone talking about the accuracy isn't confusing I mean it's to also set up how amazing it is when he moves the missiles, and Luke had telekenisis in the next movie he was just learning to be better.

The real reason as well is that the Star Wars movies are renowned for not being very well planned. I mean it wasn't even called episode four until years later, and also incest.

No, it's to set up his awareness, which is why he uses the force to know where a droid was shooting previously. If they were setting up for telekinetic power, he'd have swatted the droid out of the way. If he was just moving the missiles, his accuracy wouldn't be amazing. He also would not need to turn off the computer as having the missiles go closer to his destination would put less strain on him as I think I mentioned before. And his telekinesis would be far weaker in the next movie for no explainable reason.

It makes two movies make less sense and the only reason I can think for why you're arguing this is you think it makes Rey look more believable. It doesn't even do that.

 

[Karadalis]

As someone who played and really enjoyed TIE fighter:

Guys... guys... those where proton TORPEDOS... not missles.

Missle =/= torpedo

(the missles are actually called concusion missles or something)

Second of all:

The targeting computers where exactly that: They where suposed to target the small ventilation/exhaust shaft/port.. thing is that the target was so small that even with a targeting computer you would have trouble hitting the opening at full combat speed. Thats why the other pilots couldnt get the torpedos into the shaft.

Third of all:

What we see happening at the death star is not what was earlier explained when they talked about the deathstar blueprints anyways. Remember that it was said that hiting the ventilationshaft would result in a chain reaction wich eventually would explode the core generator. However what we see is the torpedos being sucked into the exhaust port, no secondary explosions or any power fluctuations while tarkin waits for the laser to power up... and then suddenly the whole thing explodes and simply desintegrates. Lucas clearly fucked up here since the exposition doesnt fit the shown footage at all.


And finaly fourth of all:

Luke didnt use the targeting computer because the targeting computer was faulty and not really capable of rliably locking onto the exhaust port correctly since it was such a small opening, he trusted in the force to aim his shots, to tell him where to aim and when to fire the torpedos. Infact in the first movie lukes use of the force is NON existant. He doesnt show any force powers whatsofreaking ever kept for that one incident where he uses the force instead of a targeting computer, and that is mostly because of obi wans space ghost telling him to believe in the force.

Also there is no indication whatsoever that he actually did anything that wasnt suposed to happen while using the targeting computer. The proton torpedos WHERE suposed to be swallowed by the exhaustion port no matter who fired them, thats why we had two other attempts using the targeting computers by people who werent even force sensitive but simply plain ol human. Why would the proton torpedos get SUCKED into an EXHAUST port like that?

Dont ask me.. ask george lucas... however it had nothing to do with luke using the force to push them down in a 90 degree angle when in the empire strikes back (wich played several years after a new hope mind you) he has to learn how to lift fucking rocks into the air right next to him on the ground and it takes all his concentration to do so... yet here people suggest that hes actually able to manipulate energy torpedos, while in a star fighter, flying at full combat speed, while said energy torpedos are even faster then his own ship, in a highly stressfull live or death situation?

Yeah.. fat chance...

 

[crimson5pheonix]

No, it's to set up his awareness, which is why he uses the force to know where a droid was shooting previously. If they were setting up for telekinetic power, he'd have swatted the droid out of the way. If he was just moving the missiles, his accuracy wouldn't be amazing. He also would not need to turn off the computer as having the missiles go closer to his destination would put less strain on him as I think I mentioned before. And his telekinesis would be far weaker in the next movie for no explainable reason.

It makes two movies make less sense and the only reason I can think for why you're arguing this is you think it makes Rey look more believable. It doesn't even do that.

It's setting it up for him to believe in the force to do incredible things. I mean we even see him using telekinetic force in the next movie, which wouldn't make sense unless he'd known about it previously, even though he'd literally never seen anyone use telekinetic force. He also wouldn't keep the computer on as he even hears Obi-Wan telling him to use the force instead, that's entirely narrative driven and calls back to the earlier scene.

Also, to stress, the missiles curve downwards without having targeted anything. It wasn't a case of him aiming perfectly, it was a case of the missiles physically turning 90 degrees mid-flight just after we see him tap into the force. I mean we actually watch this happen in the movie.

The reason I'm arguing this is because your nostalgia is clouding your judgement here. The original trilogy was fun but it wasn't exactly that well written, and most certaintly wasn't planned, and powers appeared as the plot demanded (hell we don't even see force lightning until like 20 minutes from the end). Rey's power comes nowhere near to Luke's at the end of A New Hope. Tapping into the force to move missiles is far greater than anything she did.

EDIT: I snipped out the rest of your post because I thought you were quoting someone else, looks like I'm tired.

So tl;dr, they were set to explode on impact, we see that happen to the other ships missiles, if I recall correctly. As for aiming, they'd just need something to tell the ships to get to X,Y coordinates and fire anytime they're there, as the missiles would pass over the exhaust and automatically go into it. As they had a targeting computer that clearly wasn't the case.

tl;dr Read Karadalis' post. No, he doesn't use telekinesis. Even without pre-planning, it still wouldn't make sense to have him not be proficient with telekinesis in the next movie. They already established that he didn't have telekinesis and spent the next movie establishing that. It's not a case of nostalgia, it's a case of understanding narrative structure.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

tl;dr Read Karadalis' post. No, he doesn't use telekinesis. Even without pre-planning, it still wouldn't make sense to have him not be proficient with telekinesis in the next movie. They already established that he didn't have telekinesis and spent the next movie establishing that. It's not a case of nostalgia, it's a case of understanding narrative structure.

I skimmed his post quickly, too busy to do a full reply, but I noticed it mentioned the exhaust port sucking them in. Exhaust ports expel things, they don't suck things in, meaning if the exhaust port was powerful enough to affect the torpedos they would actually be pushed away from it. Seeing as though they weren't it means it wasn't powerful enough to affect them, so something external caused the torpedos to curve 90 degrees down into it. Like the force we see Luke tap into moments before.

Or vernier thrusters on the missile torpedo. Which is even more likely given that we would expect the torpedoes to be able to change course. But the point is there are lists of holes in your idea that Luke used telekinesis. There's no good reason to believe he did.