I liked Star Wars:TFA but....characterization

[crimson5pheonix]

Or vernier thrusters on the missile torpedo. Which is even more likely given that we would expect the torpedoes to be able to change course. But the point is there are lists of holes in your idea that Luke used telekinesis. There's no good reason to believe he did.

As long as they have a target then yes they'll change course. Like if a targeting computer told them where to go.

And you say there's a list of holes but so far you haven't been able to come up with a reason as to why they turned 90 degrees down into the exhaust port, and you've gone through like every possible scenario. Sometimes when we see someone tap into the force and then immediately see something impossible happen, it's probably a safe bet that it's the force.

Fuse set to make it turn.
Heat seeking.
AI guided missiles.
Targeting computer isn't reliable.
It disregards what happened earlier in the movie.
It disregards what happens during the scene.
It disregards what we're shown in the next movie.

 

[LetalisK]

I'll side with the Death Star architect:


Magic Space Wizards. Sense goes out the window.

 

[smartalec]

Just a couple of moments showing Rey getting some mystical guidance while flying the Falcon would have been enough. Maybe 5 to ten seconds on screen, and a sign that her piloting improves after it. That's all it would have taken to clear this up. Could even have her a bit freaked out by it, setting up her later total freakout.

That, IMO, should have been Rey's arc. She's a loner who tries to be totally self-reliant, so coming to accept the help of both her new friends and an otherworldly power should be her struggle all through the film. It's almost there, but not quite.

Fixing the Falcon in flight, though. I got nothing. That was there to give Han a reason to say, "You're cool, work for me," but I'm not convinced he had to do that.

Say what you will about the originals, but they were tight when it came to character and dialogue. Everything had a point to it, or fed something later, and you could see it. There's a bit too much flab in TFA.

 

[Karadalis]

tl;dr Read Karadalis' post. No, he doesn't use telekinesis. Even without pre-planning, it still wouldn't make sense to have him not be proficient with telekinesis in the next movie. They already established that he didn't have telekinesis and spent the next movie establishing that. It's not a case of nostalgia, it's a case of understanding narrative structure.

I skimmed his post quickly, too busy to do a full reply, but I noticed it mentioned the exhaust port sucking them in. Exhaust ports expel things, they don't suck things in, meaning if the exhaust port was powerful enough to affect the torpedos they would actually be pushed away from it. Seeing as though they weren't it means it wasn't powerful enough to affect them, so something external caused the torpedos to curve 90 degrees down into it. Like the force we see Luke tap into moments before.

EDITH:

Scrap all that...

The torpedos do NOT go down in a 90 degree angle, they go down in a curve, doing exactly what a guided warhead was suposed to do. Luke simply used the force to tell him when to fire and where to manualy aim so that the torpedos would actually hit the middle and the hole instead of having his torpedos smack the plate around it like what happened in the first shot.

So no... the proton torpedos actually behaved like they where suposed to no matter who would have fired them.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/syxHD.gif

This gif shows the flightpath of the torpedos and the curving of the projectiles. Also note that despite being fired at the same time they go in one after another, so another fuckup by george lucas.

Had he been just slightly off to the side the torpedos would have smacked right into the surface and exploded uselessly, again just like the first shot where the same thing happened. For the target computer it would have still been a hit cause technically... the exhaust port structure was hit.

Fuse set to make it turn.

Completely stupid idea from a military engineering perspective.

Heat seeking.

You said it wouldn't work.

AI guided missiles.

Then why have a targeting computer if the torpedoes can do it themselves?

Targeting computer isn't reliable.

Then why have it if the torpedoes can apparently target by themselves?

They used the targeting computers in an attempt to hit the middle of the structure where the hole was located. The torpedos where aimed to move down over the structure by simply aiming them. Two different targeting mechanics here. The computer was merely used to locate the hole on the surface, the proton torpedos "knew" what they had to hit because when fired they where aimed at a specific spot. Doesnt matter that they had a different flightpoint, what mattered was where the reticule was pointing at while they where fired.

And thanks to the force he didnt need the targeting computer that prooved to not be able to target the hole seperatly from the structure.

Oh and why have the targeting computers at all?

They where made for bigger targets aparantly. And hey... they did hit the exhaust port on the first shot didnt they? Only that the targeting computer was no able to make out the hole on the surface, only the structure that hole was on. If you compare that to the shield generators of a imperial star destroyer you see why they have these targeting computers.. certainly not to play space golf with proton torpedos on the death star but to guide their bombs/torpedos/missles into capital ship supsystems.

If you need a visual explanation: Look at how long range missles on mechwarrior online behave. If using the lockon (targeting computer) they will home onto the target. If you blind fire them they will go down exactly where you had your crosshair pointed at at the time you fired. The missles will still fire in an "arc" and curve down onto the point you aimed them at, same happened here. They fly for a while till they reach the point where they have to go down.

This is exactly what luke did, he blindfired the torpedos wich knew they had to go down onto the point he aimed for, no matter their initial trajectory. And yes.. that is infact a one in a million hit considering that even computers couldnt make out the exhaust port, but luke with his force improved senses could.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41PMJoeIDos

Heres the death star briefing in total with audio, see how the simulation has them drop off the torpedos over the hole like bombs instead of projectiles? Again, george lucas inconsitencies with whats explained and whats shown... in this context it makes MUCH more sense in how the torpedos behave. We see them fired like missles (wich is the reason we have this debate to begin with)... but they are suposed to be bombs... ugh...

 

[Karadalis]

The torpedos do NOT go down in a 90 degree angle, they go down in a curve, doing exactly what a guided warhead was suposed to do.

I snipped the rest of your post because it relies on this part, which is that the missiles were being guided and therefore the curve.

But they weren't being guided, the targeting computer is off, so they'd have no reason to curve downwards. The warhead was fired in space, it'd have no reason to suddenly curve downwards unless something caused it to curve, like the force we see Luke tap into moments before.

The targeting computer did not GUIDE the torpedos at all, its a targeting aid, hence why the pilots had to peak through it like a scope. It told the pilot when to fire and helped him in his aim cause you know.. the target was only 2m big, and not possible to see with the naked eye at that distance. The torpedos have their own guidance system that will lead them to the point they where aimed at at the time of firing them.

The target computer was unable thought to reliably target the hole of the structure and/or the pilot messed the shot up, hence why i said that despite not hitting the hole it still registered as "target hit" on the computer.. cause technically it did.

It is not a guidance system, its a targeting aid, like a scope on a rifle. Once the torpedos are fired the targeting computer does jack shit.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Fuse set to make it turn.

Completely stupid idea from a military engineering perspective.

But it would work, which is all that matters.

Heat seeking.

You said it wouldn't work.

No, I said it would work so long as the torpedo went over the 2m wide hole. It just would HAVE to go over the hole.

AI guided missiles.

Then why have a targeting computer if the torpedoes can do it themselves?

Because Lucas is dumb. But once again, it would work which is all that matters.

Targeting computer isn't reliable.

Then why have it if the torpedoes can apparently target by themselves?

Because you have to get them in the general vicinity of the hole in the first place. Remember this is space combat where you can be firing at targets kilometers away. If you miss your shot by one degree at a single kilometer off, you miss by ~17.5 meters. That may be fine for shooting at ships, but not 2m wide targets.

 

[Qizx]

This might piss off some people but thinking about it, Finn is kinda racist, besides the part of him using the turret in the start, in the rest of the film he exists to make Ray look better by comparison with him making her a straight "mighty whitey".

In all my years on this site this is the first post I've ever seen, that's not an OP, where it so blatantly looks like the person doesn't believe what they're saying and are just saying it to get a reaction.

I wonder if you do it purely to diss my opinion. Let's take a look, Finn needs to be: rescued from tentacle hentai and Zuko, is not force sensitive, cannot use a lightsaber well, his only informed ability is to shoot (and even then I think it's worse then Ray's marksmanship). Pretty much everything he can do Ray can do better.

YOu and I have different viewpoints on him. I thought he was TOO good at somethings he shouldn't be... Not to mention she WOULD be better at him than a lot of things cause she is force sensitive.

 

[Joshroom]

Finn and Rey are two of the most lacking-in-subtlety audience surrogates I've ever seen.

...

TLDR: Finn and Rey are audience surrogates and the way the movie depicts them is an unsubtle message to said audience.

Got to say, you've pretty much summed up my own issues with the movie - though I hadn't realized it was exactly this that was bugging me. Once again, the director has done the same thing he did with the Star Trek movies - make the film as widely appealing and unoffensive as possible.

I knew they were never going to truly shake up the status quo of the Star Wars films, they exist as they are for a reason, because thats what the "people" want apparently. Still, I have never been as profoundly bored as I was when I watched Force Awakens - and thats probably because, I realize now, I sit between the two subgroups Cartographer described.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Still, I have never been as profoundly bored as I was when I watched Force Awakens.

That's quite a claim.

 

[Karadalis]

The torpedos do NOT go down in a 90 degree angle, they go down in a curve, doing exactly what a guided warhead was suposed to do.

I snipped the rest of your post because it relies on this part, which is that the missiles were being guided and therefore the curve.

But they weren't being guided, the targeting computer is off, so they'd have no reason to curve downwards. The warhead was fired in space, it'd have no reason to suddenly curve downwards unless something caused it to curve, like the force we see Luke tap into moments before.

Go back to the last page, I have a link there that shows what a proton torpedo looks like, in canon. It definitely includes a motor and the ability to turn. The warhead is, like any torpedo, just a small part of the package. You arguing this head-canon of yours isn't essential to refuting the "Rey is Mary Sue" argument, and I would say unhelpful even. There is no indication of any Force user in even the old EU expending energy on the order of shifting a huge mass at 72,000g. That would be the kind of energy that would have allowed Luke to just tear the Death Star apart. It's a LOT OF ENERGY.

We can get boring with estimates of mass and consequent PE, but I emphasize the "BORING" aspect of that.

Take a look at the ACTUAL movie footage and tell me that THATS whats depicted on your link.

They are balls of energy going down the hatch. I KNOW that the torpedos where actual torpedos in the games n all, but they where balls of energy in the movie.

Also i am not even part of the whole "Rey is a mary sue" debate. Im only here to correct this crazy notion that luke skywalker used telekinesis in the first movie to make the torpedos do a 90 degree drop into the hole.

I allready disproved that its a 90 degree drop by showing ACTUAL MOVIE FOOTAGE that shows the torpedos are curving into the hole. And there is NO proof, no suggestion, no hint no NOTHING in the actual movie that he used telekinesis.

The only ones with headcanon are the people here that go "Oh yeah he totaly used the force like a baller to push them into the hole" even thought he had problems even pulling his lightsaber out of ice several years later.

I couldnt care less if Rey is a mary sue or not aslong as shes not Anakin 2.0

 

[sumanoskae]

I don't have a negative impression of the characters, but I don't really have a positive one either. Like the majority of elements in the film, they're... adequate; they serve their function in the story perfectly fine, but they themselves aren't humanized enough to trigger my empathy or hold my interest.

To rephrase, the characters and their actions make too much sense. What do I mean by that? Observe.

The mnemonic I would assign almost the entirety of The Force Awakens is "Linear"; it is EXACTLY what you would expect at almost every turn, to the point that I strongly suspect the film makers were deliberately playing into that expectation.

Basically everyone in the film, with the exception of Han Solo and Kylo Ren, behaves exactly like a generally reasonable, well adjusted person would given their situation.

Now I don't know if you've ever met a human being before, but they're not generally considered to be especially logical creatures. Oh sure, they can be practical, but the key difference is that logic is internally consistent; cyclical. Practicality merely employs logic for an ulterior motive, and while human beings put up a good front of consistency and reason, deep down, they're basically just exceptionally imaginative and insightful apes. They aren't DRIVEN by cold, solid reason, but by ethereal, paradoxical emotion.

A human being is the child of two colliding forces; one of instinct (What you want), and one of knowledge (What you believe to be true). And what we refer to as a "Personality", is defined and manifested by where and how these two forces intersect, conflict, cooperate, surrender, or dominate.

Therefore, the actions of one human being are not always going to make sense to another, who presumably has an entirely different relationship with both knowledge and instinct. In fact, let me ask you this; have you ever met ANYONE with whom you agreed with on everything? Of course not, anyone whose got their head wrapped around how this thing called life works knows that situation is so monumentally improbable that it's functionally impossible.

And the more you favor the side of instinct (What you want) in any given situation, the less logical sense your actions are going to make to an indifferent outsider.

Why does Rey turn away from every opportunity to leave that shitty planet? Because she wants her parents to come back. But her parents are almost certainly never going to come back, and she knows this. But she wants them to come back so badly that she's willing to sit there and wait for them based on nothing but the 1 in 1000 shot that they'll actually return.

This is one of the few instances in the film where a characters actions aren't perfectly neat and linear, and these are too few and far between.

Now the reverse of this situation is not good either; nobody wants to engage with a story in which all the characters are hysterical, impulsive psychotics with no grasp on rational thought. After all, humans are both reasonable and unreasonable; too much of either one and a character ceases to be human.

The Force Awakens is an example of of too much reason. Finn renounces the First Order because they massacre innocent people, a behavior that most all of us would also be vexed by. His decision to leave this clearly evil place is 100% reasonable... and because it's a decision that almost any sane person would make, it tells us absolutely nothing about him as an individual.

You could make the argument that this demonstrates his bravery, but the problem with that is that we're in an upbeat high fantasy story, and we know that Finn isn't going to get taken out of commission this early on. I can IMAGINE that this course of action is a risk, but I can feel it in my gut that Main Character Guy #7064(TM) is going to be fine, because I've seen him beat the odds over 7000 times.

This is the order of the day in The Force Awakens; just a bunch of reasonable, well adjusted human shaped aliens doing reasonable, well adjusted alien things, untroubled by irrational fears, impossible fantasies, unrealized dreams, or anything to do with that pesky "Humanity" thing.

 

[SilverUchiha]

*Sees numerous complaints about how Rey was immediately awesome with the Force and fighting and how it was unrealistic*

*sighs*

I can't tell if people don't pay too much attention to shit or if I just read too much into certain scenes. The flashback scene where Rey grabs the lightsaber kind of sums it all up to me, but I find all arguments against her overlook this completely. Simply put, she didn't immediately get good with the force in a handful of minutes. She has been trained to an extent by Luke alongside Kylo Ren and other former (now dead) jedi kids at a young age.

What likely happened (and will be explained soon enough) is that Kylo was falling behind in Luke's class. Getting angry and frustrated with his shortcomings, he tapped into the Dark Side and joined the first order. He began reliving his grandfather's past by murdering children as well. Somehow Rey survives this (again, she's still a child) and is sent away with her memory erased and her powers suppressed (think Superman mental suppression). These memories AWAKEN when she touches the lightsaber and her powers are forced out when Kylo tries to invade her mind, likely a defensive measure Luke left behind in case she was ever captured by Kylo.

Ergo, she might be highly skilled and possibly a prodigy. But she didn't just master the skill in this movie. She trained with Luke before shit got real and had her powers restored to her once specific triggers took place. And it wasn't that she was winning the lightsaber fight against Kylo either. She was actually on the losing end until another trigger (Kylo mentioning the force) gave her the idea to let the force simply guide her through the remainder of the fight. While Kylo used his rage and aggression to overpower her, she used the force to simply turn that against him and not necessarily win, but fend him off so she could escape. This was meant to demonstrate that she isn't more powerful, but more in line with the jedi way of using the force.

Or at least those are my thoughts. But I find it hard to believe I'm the only one who looked that deep into what was shown and no one else is voicing anything similar to this.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

But I find it hard to believe I'm the only one who looked that deep into what was shown and no one else is voicing anything similar to this.

Check some of the other threads. You're not the only one to posit this theory.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

*Sees numerous complaints about how Rey was immediately awesome with the Force and fighting and how it was unrealistic*

*sighs*

I can't tell if people don't pay too much attention to shit or if I just read too much into certain scenes. The flashback scene where Rey grabs the lightsaber kind of sums it all up to me, but I find all arguments against her overlook this completely. Simply put, she didn't immediately get good with the force in a handful of minutes. She has been trained to an extent by Luke alongside Kylo Ren and other former (now dead) jedi kids at a young age.

What likely happened (and will be explained soon enough) is that Kylo was falling behind in Luke's class. Getting angry and frustrated with his shortcomings, he tapped into the Dark Side and joined the first order. He began reliving his grandfather's past by murdering children as well. Somehow Rey survives this (again, she's still a child) and is sent away with her memory erased and her powers suppressed (think Superman mental suppression). These memories AWAKEN when she touches the lightsaber and her powers are forced out when Kylo tries to invade her mind, likely a defensive measure Luke left behind in case she was ever captured by Kylo.

Ergo, she might be highly skilled and possibly a prodigy. But she didn't just master the skill in this movie. She trained with Luke before shit got real and had her powers restored to her once specific triggers took place. And it wasn't that she was winning the lightsaber fight against Kylo either. She was actually on the losing end until another trigger (Kylo mentioning the force) gave her the idea to let the force simply guide her through the remainder of the fight. While Kylo used his rage and aggression to overpower her, she used the force to simply turn that against him and not necessarily win, but fend him off so she could escape. This was meant to demonstrate that she isn't more powerful, but more in line with the jedi way of using the force.

Or at least those are my thoughts. But I find it hard to believe I'm the only one who looked that deep into what was shown and no one else is voicing anything similar to this.

People on both sides have acknowledged that possibility. Making her an amnesiac who used to be a Jedi prodigy as a toddler doesn't belie the "she's too special" complaint.

I'd compare it to the "I'm the avatar! Deal with it!" scene in LoK where Korra is manipulating three of the four elements while practically still in diapers.

Yes, the fact Katara went from hardly being able to make a water whip to tying Azula-Sue in direct combat in a matter of months is bullshit as is Aang the 12 year old Master Airbender as is Sokka 14 year old strategist-supreme as is Toph the prepubescent inventor of metal-bending as is the fact they curbstomp military-trained adults by the platoon.

A longer arc and the appearance of progression (even the BS expedited Rocky montage type) goes a long way toward allowing the more pedantic to swallow certain shortcuts that aid the heroes.

 

[MishaK]

http://imgur.com/gallery/7EhqwbF

Sums up the arguments here, settles them better than here, and has a voting system to show just how crazy and fringe some here are.

enjoy it.