I miss the old RPG style.

[Verzin]

I just started playing vampires the masquerade bloodlines (on the advice of someone here actually). Extremely difficult game to get into (poor graphics, clunky combat, EXTREMELY complicated skill system)but the dialogue and the intricate skill system (once you figure the damn thing out) eventually sucked me into it. take my advice: If you like RPGs and can stick with a difficult to get into one for a bit, play this game. As I was playing it last night, I realized I was more immersed in this game than I had been in any game for a long time. It is not without faults: bugs, spending 30 minutes trying to find some godamn building that is hidden in the most unintuitive alleyway imaginable, and losing progress makes you want to rip your face off. But I'm enjoying it more than any other game I've played in a long time.

The only RPGs I enjoyed this much were
Baldur's Gate I & II (my introduction to RPGS)
Fallout 2
fallout
KOTOR I & II
Planescape Torment
Assorted Final Fantasy Games
a bunch of JRPGs that I don't want to list because it would take forever. the point is I like SNES and PS JRPGs.
Morrowind (sort of. I still have nightmares of trying to find stuff in Morrowind through obtuse directions)
and probably a bunch of others I'm not thinking of right now.

The point is: modern RPGs have lost their way. What makes these games so much fun is a mixture of the compelling world, humor, great dialogue, memorable characters, massive number of skills and abilities that are fun to use, and the massive variety of ways you can solve problems.

Modern RPGs have lost this. I can't think of a single RPG that was released in the last 3 years or so that I enjoyed as much as I enjoy these older ones. Even through the crappy graphics, the poor combat, and the bugs I still find myself enjoying the older ones more.

Why do studios insist on making Action games with RPG elements and calling them RPGs when they have relatively linear storylines, crappy dialogue, and easily forgettable characters?
Why can we not have a REAL godamned sequal to KOTOR II? good combat is fine. in fact, good combat is awesome, but it shouldn't be the focus of an RPG. it should be there to drive the plot, force character development, and also an option that must be there just to be awesome.
I am sad. I really want more of these games. No other genre sucks me in like a good RPG.

 

[Mint Rubber]

I feel you man!

The other day I was thinking about all of the RPG's I ever played. And it's a pretty long list.

In my opinion the problem with RPG's (and games in general) today is that they focus too much on presentation, graphics and general bling to the detriment of story, character development and game length.

 

[dangoball]

You and I are of one kin, my fellow Escapist. I also fear for the future of RPG, seeing what modern ones do to their predecessors. As in like Fallout 3 butchered original rules.

Yet there is still hope!

Deus Ex: HR is quite a good RPG of modern times, so are The Witcher and Mass Effect series (forget the ending - gameplay and character wise).

As a classic RPG enthusiast I dare recommend a few marvels you lack in you list.
Arx Fatalis - awesome dungeon crawler with interesting magic system (i really advise playing a mage if you want to get the most of it). Dirt cheap on Steam (5 eur)
Gothic - only 1 and 2, 3 is kinda shit and there is no "Gothic 4" (seriously, Arcania is nothing like the Gothic I love). Fun fact: Gothic 1 is still just as expensive as Arcania (20 eur, not counting expansion). However you can get Gotic 1-3 for 20 eur as a bunde on Steam.

Oh and just a side-note: VTM:Bloodlines has "extremely" complicated skill system? I see you have never played any tabletop RPG by White Wolf It's actually very similar to their WoD rules with some adjustments for PC gaming. However now I realize that most tabletop RPGs have quite complicated rules, only that PC usually hides most of that from player

 

[BreakfastMan]

While I don't want to get into the debate on old RPGs versus new RPGs, the styles of games you describe still exist and are still getting released. I mean, if people are willing to buy them, they are getting made. You might have to do a bit of digging to find them, and they might no longer be the poster-boys for the RPG genre, but they are out there. There have been a number released in the past couple years. Hell, I alt-tabbed out of one the games just now to write this (EDIT: Divinity 2, if you want to know). Seek, and you will find, my friend.

It is like saying "there is no good heavy metal anymore" when you just listen to rap and R&B. Of course you cannot find any good heavy metal anymore. You are not actively looking for it.

 

[The Madman]

To be fair Vampire: Bloodlines is sort of an anomaly in its own right and doesn't even compare well to any of the other games you listed either.

Personally I don't care about this whole new vs. old shebang, I can name plenty of games from both timelines I think are brilliant. Nah, what I want are more rpg specifically like Bloodlines. Seriously. That game is absolutely genius in some ways and it's a tragedy Troika went out of business shortly after releasing this game. The characters, the setting, the world, and your interaction with all of the above are almost unparalleled in the gaming industry.

It's just a uniquely sublime rpg experience. Certainly not without its drawbacks as well; combat isn't particularly good, visuals are mediocre at absolute best, and even with the numerous fan patches over the years it remains a fairly buggy experience. But those are more than made up for by what it does spectacularly well!

 

[DoPo]

EXTREMELY complicated skill system

Really? Put XP into stats. Two stats combine to give you the rating of a derived stat you actually use. It's (marginally) one more step than "put points into stats". What did you find so hard about it?

Not to mention that all you're doing essentially boils down to adding together two single digit numbers to get a single digit number, doesn't involve THAC0 or any of the D&D spins on "take stat, derive attribute modifier (well, it's derived for you, but still) and add it to the stat, add other relevant bonuses to the stat but don't add the same type of bonus more than once, except some types of bonuses you can add more than once".

Morrowind (sort of. I still have nightmares of trying to find stuff in Morrowind through obtuse directions)

Oh Vivec, those were awful. I mean, I loved the fact that you were just given directions rather than a big arrow pointing to Where You Need To Go but still I think I never managed to finish one Morag Tong hit because the directions were something like "Go to the other side of the continent in vaguely this direction. Find one road that can hardly be called such. Follow it until you reach a stone that looks like a dog turd (unlike every other stone around there). There turn half a cliffreacer's wingspread to the left. Go for exactly 63 silt strider paces. You should hear a call of a nix hound at that point, that means you now need to trek through entirely featureless region in a direction that can only be described through a broad sweep of a hand, and you're there! Kill the man you find." Well, I tried to follow the directions but after several tries (each of which ended on an entirely different place. With no NPCs in sight) I gave up.

Anyway, I do believe you are right. I can't even think of what recent RPGs I've played, aside from Skyrim (since I played it yesterday) and Kingdoms of Amalur (only the demo) because of how boring they were compared to the older ones. I find myself replaying the good games more than going for new releases because of that.

Most recently, I actually played Bloodlines yet again. OP, do yourself a favour and after you finish it once, install Clan Quest Mod and play it again - it's really good, and the latest version (3.0) adds even more cool stuff (the previous one I played was 2.1 and it was till good). Oh and if you haven't, play a Malkavian - they totally own the game. If you have, play a Nosferatu, they come a close second (no, going through the sewers is unnecessary - it's very hard to get a Masquerade breach if you walk down the street, almost impossible).

 

[KINGBeerZ]

i get what you mean with this, no game experience has ever come close to FFIX for me, the world the characters everything was just perfect.

One thing which i think is really missing is turn based combat, think about you never see any today it's all real time. I reckon it's because people are getting less patient with games due to the rise of the FPS whcih I believe is getting way more popularity than it deserves as a genre.

There are some games i've played that are amazing and more recent RPG's Dragon Age Origins and Tales of Vesperia being the foremost.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

It's just a uniquely sublime rpg experience. Certainly not without its drawbacks as well; combat isn't particularly good, visuals are mediocre at absolute best, and even with the numerous fan patches over the years it remains a fairly buggy experience. But those are more than made up for by what it does spectacularly well!

I'd say only the first half of the game if brilliant. Very atmospheric with interesting characters and equally interesting things to do. In fact, I'd say the relationship between Therese and Jeanette Voerman is probably the one of the best, if not greatest, thing I've seen any game do with character development.

After that it devolves into repetitive combat sequences, which is a real shame.

 

[Blunderboy]

When I returned to BG2 last year after a break of about three years, one of my party members died and I found myself waiting for them to revive once I'd killed the last enemy.

I felt ashamed at myself.

 

[lRookiel]

This is now one of my favourite threads on the escapist.

Do not despair, we have Baldurs gate enhanced edition coming soon, with new content!

And if that sells well, Beamdog are gonna do Baldurs gate 3! (Eventually)

http://uk.pc.gamespy.com/pc/baldurs-gate-enhanced-edition/1220929p1.html

Which is why I'm getting the enhanced edition, I can't fucking wait!

 

[The Madman]

I'd say only the first half of the game if brilliant. Very atmospheric with interesting characters and equally interesting things to do. In fact, I'd say the relationship between Therese and Jeanette Voerman is probably the one of the best, if not greatest, thing I've seen any game do with character development.

After that it devolves into repetitive combat sequences, which is a real shame.

I disagree. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who particularly enjoys that one sewer romp bit, but that and a few other bits aside I generally love the entire Bloodlines experience. Without question the best parts in my mind are the more free-roaming hub sections: Santa Monica, Downtown, Hollywood and Chinatown as I recall. But some of the individual 'missions' are memorable in their own right as well. That one Malkavian fellows mansion for example despite being a bit actiony was well designed and had some great dialogue and set pieces, and I always enjoy the segment where you're 'captured' later on as well.

That poor sod who's sent in to try and vanquish you with a cross makes me laugh every time!

Meanwhile the 'meat house' always manages to make me nauseous, and Bishop Vick is fun as well despite being a side mission. Hell the fact I can even remember his name when I haven't played bloodlines in a few years just goes to show how memorable even a minor character like him was compared to countless other games where even the main protagonist can't hold my attention long enough to make me bother learning their names.

That, in my mind at least, is the hallmark of a good gaming narrative experience. When even years after I've played it last I'm still able to remember specific segments of the game and call up the names of the various characters. I can rattle off the entire cast of Baldur's Gate for example and even quote some of my favourite lines from Planescape: Torment, but I'm damned if I can remember the name of a single character from Oblivion... which isn't to say it's a bad game, I know many people love it, but let's be honest story was not that games strong suite by any means and it shows. Just using it as an example of what I'd consider an rpg with a poor narrative experience.

 

[Violator[xL]]

I miss Dungeonhack. Come on, Wizards of the Coast, bring us another random-dungeon-generator within the D&D setting. Should make me forget Diablo 3.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

I disagree. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who particularly enjoys that one sewer romp bit, but that and a few other bits aside I generally love the entire Bloodlines experience.

Oh right, now I remember -shudder-. Must've repressed that one.

Don't get me wrong, I love Bloodlines too, but I can't help but feel that it is an uneven experience and that most of that is concentrated in the latter half of the game. Especially the last few hours.

 

[The Madman]

Oh right, now I remember -shudder-. Must've repressed that one.

Don't get me wrong, I love Bloodlines too, but I can't help but feel that it is an uneven experience and that most of that is concentrated in the latter half of the game. Especially the last few hours.

It is uneven. As mentioned that one sewer bit just feels out of place and isn't fun in the slightest... although it does lead to you meeting one of the neatest fellow in the game and his cohorts, so there's that. But overall I still disagree that somehow the first half of the game is better than the second.

The werewolf bit for example, despite being a combat scenario, I thought was spectacular. And near the end when you're fighting your way into a place I wont mention for the sake of spoilers and a SWAT teams busts through the glass ceiling to try and take you down, I thought that was both appropriate considering who you were fighting and pretty fun. Just something about getting to flex your supernatural powers against the best the mortals have to offer, feels great!

Add to scenario like those the ongoing brilliant dialogue and fun roleplay scenario and you've got one of my favourite games through and through. Uneven in places to be sure, the sewer bit is genuinely bad and if you're not at least slightly capable in combat you're going to have a rough time with the games ending (I also dislike the Giovanni dungeon bit, but that's thankfully short. Boss is a ***** though!), but I find it hard to say 'only the first half is good' when I've so many memorable experience throughout the entire games campaign.

 

[DoPo]

I'm damned if I can remember the name of a single character from Oblivion... which isn't to say it's a bad game, I know many people love it, but let's be honest story was not that games strong suite by any means and it shows. Just using it as an example of what I'd consider an rpg with a poor narrative experience.

No, Oblivion was bad. That doesn't mean people can't have fun with it, though. oblivion was bland and "dumbed down" from Morrowind perspective. It was also turned into a fairly generic RPG setting - Eurapean-ish country with no distinctive features. Take a five minute walk out of the city and you've seen 80% of the countryside. It's not you who can't recall NPCs, I can't either - and I can hardly remember the names of the cities - all, what 4 or 5 of them? There is Imperial City (duh, easy) and...some others - one by the sea, one where the Dark Brotherhood were, one destroyed and...one more? Oblivion was a forgettable experience.

And you are right about the sewers in Bloodlines - they can go and die in a fire for all I care. Too long, too boring, too much fighting too much of the most annoying critters. It could only be worse if there was a boss fight...and there was, only to have the same creature thrown at you half a dozen more times afterwards.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

Have you considered playing any of the Operation Rainfall games? I believe they're all at least 20 hours long or something, and although GameInformer hated Xenoblade simply for being in 480p, if it was in full-HD then they wouldn't have had the budget left over to make it as huge and epic as they did.

(They're all Wii-exclusives, though. So much for "the Wii has no 'truly hardcore' games".)

 

[A Weary Exile]

I noticed a distinct decline in quality and over-simplification just from Bethesda's Fallout 3/Oblivion to Skyrim and I do find it worrying that this trend of "Dumb it down, give it a nice coat of paint, sell it." might continue. And I'm not some 30-ish gamer pining for the Golden Age of RPGs and PC gaming, I'm only on the cusp of turning twenty.

 

[Anachronism]

Agreed. The last RPG that I can honestly say I really liked was Dragon Age: Origins, precisely because it was the spiritual sequel to Baldur's Gate. It brought back all the depth of skills, stats, inventory management and party-based combat that have been missing in a lot of modern RPGs. Having a party of characters that you can directly control really is more satisfying than just having one; you have so many more tactical options to approach battles.

Dragon Age II makes me sad, though. It seems like they decided to make a game for the people who didn't like Origins, at the expense of those who did. BioWare already have Mass Effect, isn't one action RPG franchise enough?

Having said this, if they made a sequel to Jade Empire with a bigger world, more quests and less boring combat I'd be all over it. Frustratingly shallow, but I think it's the best world and one of the best stories BioWare have made.