I miss the old RPG style.

[Kahunaburger]

Well one of the problems is that when we got better processing power we became able to do things real time.

Yea, that's why they never had action gameplay in real time back then. Oh wait, they did.

Not the extend you are talking about. We didn't have the calculating power to simulate the AI of 5 darkspawn at the same time while calculated the dmg according to their set place and power.

Yeah we had action games. Just nowhere near what you are suggesting.

Uh... unless your definition of "old RPG" excludes Fallout, real-time gameplay wasn't a problem when that generation of CRPGs was being made.

 

[Hides His Eyes]

While I don't want to get into the debate on old RPGs versus new RPGs, the styles of games you describe still exist and are still getting released. I mean, if people are willing to buy them, they are getting made. You might have to do a bit of digging to find them, and they might no longer be the poster-boys for the RPG genre, but they are out there. There have been a number released in the past couple years. Hell, I alt-tabbed out of one the games just now to write this (EDIT: Divinity 2, if you want to know). Seek, and you will find, my friend.

It is like saying "there is no good heavy metal anymore" when you just listen to rap and R&B. Of course you cannot find any good heavy metal anymore. You are not actively looking for it.

Do you have any recommendations then? For me, Shadowrun Returns in the great white hope. I can't wait for that game.

I am totally in agreement with the OP. And I get sick of people making apologies for modern RPGs that strip away complexity and depth in the name of "accessibility". I would add that, for me anyway, the single most important thing for an RPG to do is give the player control over the type of character they want to create. This means lots of options for skills, abilities, weapons, armour and cosmetic and aesthetic things. Bioware have been getting this wrong for a while now. Even The Elder Scrolls is going backwards in this respect - Skyrim had fewer skills and weapons than Oblivion, which had fewer skills and weapons than Morrowind. It does make me sad.

So yeah, any recommendations of modern RPGs that understand what makes a good RPG would be very welcome!

 

[Hides His Eyes]

I do not wear glasses, and stay away from the distorting nostalgia goggles too.

Instead, I like changes, improvements, new ideas and streamlining in places where it fits. I'm not saying older RPG's were nor are bad, but I'm just not jumping into this nostalgic train. Those that tend to have hints of elitism around here and there.

In most circumstances I would agree with you, but this really isn't nostalgia. We are people who genuinely prefer a game to be deep and complex like Bioware's old D&D-based games. I guess my point is that, for many of us, the "streamlining" we are seeing in so many modern mainstream RPGs... well, frankly it DOESN'T fit.

 

[Hides His Eyes]

Well one of the problems is that when we got better processing power we became able to do things real time.

I agree. But real-time is not inherently superior, and I think it's time developers realised that. Turn-based just fits better in some types of game. Kind of like colour film. It was a great technological advance and thank god for it - but some films are still made in black and white because they are better in black and white.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Well one of the problems is that when we got better processing power we became able to do things real time.

Yea, that's why they never had action gameplay in real time back then. Oh wait, they did.

Not the extend you are talking about. We didn't have the calculating power to simulate the AI of 5 darkspawn at the same time while calculated the dmg according to their set place and power.

Yeah we had action games. Just nowhere near what you are suggesting.

Uh... unless your definition of "old RPG" excludes Fallout, real-time gameplay wasn't a problem when that generation of CRPGs was being made.

My definition of action RPG excludes fallout....

I dont find that to be so strange.

See bolded text. When Fallout came out, they had been making ARPGs for about a decade.

The WoW mode of combat was a result of limitations and resulting design decisions. So was a lot of your old combat.

And? Chess and Go had design decisions based on technological limitations, and they have yet to be surpassed as multiplayer games.

 

[BreakfastMan]

While I don't want to get into the debate on old RPGs versus new RPGs, the styles of games you describe still exist and are still getting released. I mean, if people are willing to buy them, they are getting made. You might have to do a bit of digging to find them, and they might no longer be the poster-boys for the RPG genre, but they are out there. There have been a number released in the past couple years. Hell, I alt-tabbed out of one the games just now to write this (EDIT: Divinity 2, if you want to know). Seek, and you will find, my friend.

It is like saying "there is no good heavy metal anymore" when you just listen to rap and R&B. Of course you cannot find any good heavy metal anymore. You are not actively looking for it.

Do you have any recommendations then? For me, Shadowrun Returns in the great white hope. I can't wait for that game.

I am totally in agreement with the OP. And I get sick of people making apologies for modern RPGs that strip away complexity and depth in the name of "accessibility". I would add that, for me anyway, the single most important thing for an RPG to do is give the player control over the type of character they want to create. This means lots of options for skills, abilities, weapons, armour and cosmetic and aesthetic things. Bioware have been getting this wrong for a while now. Even The Elder Scrolls is going backwards in this respect - Skyrim had fewer skills and weapons than Oblivion, which had fewer skills and weapons than Morrowind. It does make me sad.

So yeah, any recommendations of modern RPGs that understand what makes a good RPG would be very welcome!

Take a look at the aforementioned Divinity 2. Bloody loads of customization there. Little on the cosmetic side, but it more than makes up for it everywhere else. The new Fallout games (especially NV), do this very well. Alpha protocol, while lacking in cosmetics, has a lot of this. Deus Ex: HR has a lot of that too, but no real cosmetic stuff. Check out EYE: Divine Cybermancy, which is really unique and offers you a lot of different play styles. The Mount & Blade gamers provide a more historical, grand strategy view of this while keeping the RPG elements relatively intact. Neverwinter Nights 2 contains customization up the arse, so check that one out. I have also good things about the Risen games and Two Worlds II, so they should be worth a look.

 

[Hides His Eyes]

I just started playing vampires the masquerade bloodlines (on the advice of someone here actually). Extremely difficult game to get into (poor graphics, clunky combat, EXTREMELY complicated skill system)but the dialogue and the intricate skill system (once you figure the damn thing out) eventually sucked me into it. take my advice: If you like RPGs and can stick with a difficult to get into one for a bit, play this game. As I was playing it last night, I realized I was more immersed in this game than I had been in any game for a long time. It is not without faults: bugs, spending 30 minutes trying to find some godamn building that is hidden in the most unintuitive alleyway imaginable, and losing progress makes you want to rip your face off. But I'm enjoying it more than any other game I've played in a long time.

The only RPGs I enjoyed this much were
Baldur's Gate I & II (my introduction to RPGS)
Fallout 2
fallout
KOTOR I & II
Planescape Torment
Assorted Final Fantasy Games
a bunch of JRPGs that I don't want to list because it would take forever. the point is I like SNES and PS JRPGs.
Morrowind (sort of. I still have nightmares of trying to find stuff in Morrowind through obtuse directions)
and probably a bunch of others I'm not thinking of right now.

The point is: modern RPGs have lost their way. What makes these games so much fun is a mixture of the compelling world, humor, great dialogue, memorable characters, massive number of skills and abilities that are fun to use, and the massive variety of ways you can solve problems.

Modern RPGs have lost this. I can't think of a single RPG that was released in the last 3 years or so that I enjoyed as much as I enjoy these older ones. Even through the crappy graphics, the poor combat, and the bugs I still find myself enjoying the older ones more.

Why do studios insist on making Action games with RPG elements and calling them RPGs when they have relatively linear storylines, crappy dialogue, and easily forgettable characters?
Why can we not have a REAL godamned sequal to KOTOR II? good combat is fine. in fact, good combat is awesome, but it shouldn't be the focus of an RPG. it should be there to drive the plot, force character development, and also an option that must be there just to be awesome.
I am sad. I really want more of these games. No other genre sucks me in like a good RPG.

As I said, I totally agree. Did you play Neverwinter Nights? In my opinion the best RPG ever, and the best game ever. The level editor and resulting online community gave it massive replay value too. Shadowrun Returns seems set to do a similar thing, so I'd look out for that as well, especially if you think J.R.R. Tolkien and William Gibson writing a book together would be awesome

 

[Hides His Eyes]

While I don't want to get into the debate on old RPGs versus new RPGs, the styles of games you describe still exist and are still getting released. I mean, if people are willing to buy them, they are getting made. You might have to do a bit of digging to find them, and they might no longer be the poster-boys for the RPG genre, but they are out there. There have been a number released in the past couple years. Hell, I alt-tabbed out of one the games just now to write this (EDIT: Divinity 2, if you want to know). Seek, and you will find, my friend.

It is like saying "there is no good heavy metal anymore" when you just listen to rap and R&B. Of course you cannot find any good heavy metal anymore. You are not actively looking for it.

Do you have any recommendations then? For me, Shadowrun Returns in the great white hope. I can't wait for that game.

I am totally in agreement with the OP. And I get sick of people making apologies for modern RPGs that strip away complexity and depth in the name of "accessibility". I would add that, for me anyway, the single most important thing for an RPG to do is give the player control over the type of character they want to create. This means lots of options for skills, abilities, weapons, armour and cosmetic and aesthetic things. Bioware have been getting this wrong for a while now. Even The Elder Scrolls is going backwards in this respect - Skyrim had fewer skills and weapons than Oblivion, which had fewer skills and weapons than Morrowind. It does make me sad.

So yeah, any recommendations of modern RPGs that understand what makes a good RPG would be very welcome!

Take a look at the aforementioned Divinity 2. Bloody loads of customization there. Little on the cosmetic side, but it more than makes up for it everywhere else. The new Fallout games (especially NV), do this very well. Alpha protocol, while lacking in cosmetics, has a lot of this. Deus Ex: HR has a lot of that too, but no real cosmetic stuff. Check out EYE: Divine Cybermancy, which is really unique and offers you a lot of different play styles. The Mount & Blade gamers provide a more historical, grand strategy view of this while keeping the RPG elements relatively intact. Neverwinter Nights 2 contains customization up the arse, so check that one out. I have also good things about the Risen games and Two Worlds II, so they should be worth a look.

Thanks I will check out the ones I haven't tried already. NWN2 I found rather disappointing after the first one, gameplay-wise, though I can't argue about the customisation. And I'll point you, as well as the OP, in the direction of the forthcoming Shadowrun Kickstarter game, which has raised about four and a half times its target from people eager to play it - proving there is still a serious market for such games.

 

[Yopaz]

Have you considered playing any of the Operation Rainfall games? I believe they're all at least 20 hours long or something, and although GameInformer hated Xenoblade simply for being in 480p, if it was in full-HD then they wouldn't have had the budget left over to make it as huge and epic as they did.

(They're all Wii-exclusives, though. So much for "the Wii has no 'truly hardcore' games".)

Let me tell you this. If you complete Xenoblade in 20 hours I would really respect you. I think I spent about 80 hours without doing half the sidequests and nowhere near completing the end game dungeons.

 

[Hides His Eyes]

Well one of the problems is that when we got better processing power we became able to do things real time.

Yea, that's why they never had action gameplay in real time back then. Oh wait, they did.

Not the extend you are talking about. We didn't have the calculating power to simulate the AI of 5 darkspawn at the same time while calculated the dmg according to their set place and power.

Yeah we had action games. Just nowhere near what you are suggesting.

Uh... unless your definition of "old RPG" excludes Fallout, real-time gameplay wasn't a problem when that generation of CRPGs was being made.

My definition of action RPG excludes fallout....

I dont find that to be so strange.

Well one of the problems is that when we got better processing power we became able to do things real time.

Yea, that's why they never had action gameplay in real time back then. Oh wait, they did.

Not the extend you are talking about. We didn't have the calculating power to simulate the AI of 5 darkspawn at the same time while calculated the dmg according to their set place and power.

Yeah we had action games. Just nowhere near what you are suggesting.

The way you made it seem was that all they could back then was turn based combat or something.

They made rpgs like that because they were trying to emulate p&p rpgs/wargames on computer. The modern rpgs are all action game/shooters now because they're trying to appeal to the most ppl possible. And we know there's a ton more action/shooter fans, than traditional rpg fans out there. Eh, it's all about the $$$$$$ obviously.

Dude what does the P&p games have in common?
They are designed to be able to be done on paper. There isn't a lot of calculations going on here because they were designed to be done at a reasonable phase.

When we got more calculating power what do we do with it?
That we can calculate 8 combat turns a second then what does it add?
Nothing.
We got better processing power allowed us to do real what we were forced to make into simple maths.
Look at it from a different perspective where you dont have a bias towards nostalgia.
Guild wars 2 combat VS SWTOR combat. One uses an old system with a target lock and the other is moving towards an action oriented play. The WoW mode of combat was a result of limitations and resulting design decisions. So was a lot of your old combat.

If I want to play an action game, I'll play a fucking action game. There's only like 859545486479650876085975484985956987 of them out there to be played.

Why should all games play similar to each other ? That doesn't make too much sense, does it ?

Its not a question of what is a better game.
It is what is more likely.

A poster before me said it best.

Well one of the problems is that when we got better processing power we became able to do things real time.

I agree. But real-time is not inherently superior, and I think it's time developers realised that. Turn-based just fits better in some types of game. Kind of like colour film. It was a great technological advance and thank god for it - but some films are still made in black and white because they are better in black and white.

Thanks, but I do agree with Anthraxus here. If I want to play a game that's full of fast-paced action then I'll play an action game. If I want a game where I get to create the main character and direct his/her traits and abilities myself, then I look to RPGs. And contrary to popular belief, these two things are at least partially at odds with each other.

 

[BreakfastMan]

Thanks I will check out the ones I haven't tried already. NWN2 I found rather disappointing after the first one, gameplay-wise, though I can't argue about the customisation. And I'll point you, as well as the OP, in the direction of the forthcoming Shadowrun Kickstarter game, which has raised about four and a half times its target from people eager to play it - proving there is still a serious market for such games.

I know about Shadowrun already. I have been greatly looking forward to it and wasteland ever since they hit their goals.

And I really like the gameplay in NWN2. Probably because I really like that Baldur's Gate style of isometric RPG squad-tactics games, and that game played every much like those classics.

 

[KingHodor]

Sorry, but Bloodlines is definitely NOT old RPG style.

VTMB is a roleplaying shooter/action RPG.

Yeah, by now this type of thread has almost become a cliché.
But if he's going to complain about RPGs becoming replaced by RPG/Action hybrids, atleast he could do us the courtesy and not use an RPG/Action hybrid like VtM as his positive example.

Actually some of the best character skill systems I've seen are in Vampire: The Msquerade - Bloodlines and Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obsucra. Arcanum in particular, what they have in common is that when you level up/get experience it's given to you purely in the form of points to spend on abilities, which are all clearly spelled out from the start so you know what you're building.

Except that they never bothered to actually spend more than one femtosecond on balancing Arcanum, so you so never know whether you're going to create a useful character.

Just how bad is the balancing?
Strength gives exponential bonuses to melee attacks, and Agility lets you accumulate enough action points to cross the entire screen in a single turn to move in for the kill.
On the other hand, all the buyable firearms are effectively useless, and crafting the actually useful guns requires spending additional points in Intelligence and Gunsmithing.
And the resulting firearms specialist wielding a freaking Elephant Gun will still be a vastly inferior fighter to Dog, your party's animal companion, because he was "smart" enough to dump all his point into Strength and do such ungodly amounts of melee damage that he'll simply *chew* through reinforced chests and lava golems.

 

[zefiris]

Well one of the problems is that when we got better processing power we became able to do things real time.

Ultima Underworld says hi.

 

[dyre]

I've found that if you don't think about them, you don't miss old RPGs as much. This thread isn't helping :|

I don't think modern RPGs have lost their way though. Well, not all of them. Witcher 2 and Deus Ex HR are, imo, excellent games, and would not benefit at all from being made in the old isometric, overly complex style of RPGs. Someone else mentioned Divinity: Dragon Knight Saga, which is also quite good. Also, I recently bought a game called Avernum: Escape from the Pit that seems like an interesting old school RPG. I haven't tried it out yet though.

Btw, like other people have said, you must try Arcanum. Combat sucks ass, but everything else about that game is wonderful, from the storytelling to the steampunk/magic world to the skill system to the many, interesting quests.