I miss the old RPG style.

[Hides His Eyes]

Hmmm, a lot of pics, I edited the first one out but I didn't want to cut more for fear of messing up the quoting.

I just wanted to say that your missing a huge part of the point. Most of what your showing is graphics, and the truth is new technology can be used in old ways of playing games. The gist of this arguement is about people who want more complex games, and ones where the stats and skills and such are what determine the outcome, rather than your abillity to move a controller quickly.

See, there is no reason why most of those games could be be re-done with modern visuals without maintaining their core gameplay, which is what a lot of people want. This generally doesn't happen because of the desire to make everything accessible to the most casual audience possible. In comparing Skyrim to previous games like say Morrowwind or Daggerfall, while it got prettier, it also lost a lot of the options that were previously in the games. You have less guilds/factions and such you can join and work with, less skills, and less control over doing things like creating and casting spells or crafting magical items. With each installment there has been less and less in the games going with the prettier graphics. For example in Skyrim I can't fly, and that's a big deal when looking at how in the series you used to be able to. I'd love to have been able to engage some of those dragons in aeriel combat instead of having to shoot arrows/spells at them and/or wait for them to land. Being able to make items or spells to do things like fly was part of what made me feel powerful in Morrowwind, even at my most powerful in Skyrim I feel like a pale shadow I what I should be able to do.... and yes, I understand things like this can be modded, but the point is that the core gameplay has become much simpler, and options have been lost in the name of making things far more accessible.


Right now there is no reason why you couldn't make a game like "Bloodlines" (OP's example) with modern technology other than it's too complicated for most people, and wouldn't sell enough copies to casual gamers. Other than sheer accessibility there was no reason to remove the skill trees, attribute allocation, etc... from the Diablo series.

Now, there are exceptions, there always are, but as a general rule as games have gotten prettier, they have also gotten simpler and provided far less that you can actually do in them, especially when it comes to RPGs.

As nasty as I am, I don't begrudge casuals their games in an absolute sense, I just think we need to see more of them for serious gamers and RPG players. The problem is that the industry is always going to go after the largest group, which isn't us. I understand that, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be happy about it and not rail against it.

Sir or madam, you are the voice of reason, and you've just expressed my exact views better than I probably could, so thank you.

As a ray of hope I'd point you (I realise I'll sound like a stuck record to anyone who's read more than one of my posts in this thread) towards the forthcoming Shadowrun Kickstarter game. It's going to be a 2D RPG with an emphasis on character building and storytelling, with turn-based combat and a level editor. It has raised more than four times its target so far, demonstrating that while we are not the biggest group, we're not exactly small either.

Kickstarter may be the way forward, I think.

 

[Greg Waller]

That, in my mind at least, is the hallmark of a good gaming narrative experience.

Absolutely. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. VtM:Bloodlines is a hidden gem. An absolute lost classic that got so underrated by critics it's not even funny.

I also find it ironic that the OP slams VtM for bad graphics, but still lists Fallout 1 in the top classics list. /boggle

Anyway, yes, RPGs have lost their way. I recently took a trip through BioWare's RPG history, and wrote about it here:

http://szsleepy.wordpress.com/2012/05/03/neverwinter-gate-baldurs-nights-and-the-mask-of-the-sword-coast/

You are correct, OP, this is an endemic that can't end well.

 

[Warped_Ghost]

Dragon Age Origins was made 3 years ago and that was a blast to the past.
-The graphics sucked (Didn't bother me)
-Difficult combat system that explained little to nothing.
-Normal difficulty was too hard for a lot of people
-Great dialogue system

And if you are looking for a somewhat hard game with a lot of bugs play New Vegas on Hardcore mode on the hardest difficulty.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Old RPG's, while well made and carefully crafted, are in the process of the conversion to higher powers. In other words, THE DEVELOPERS ARE DOING THEIR BEST TO BRING THEM TO LIGHT WHERE THEY ARE APPEALING.

Take Fallout, It was definitly great, timeless and enjoyable. Then after the whole problem with interplay, Bethesda brought a stimpak to the franchise and brought it to life with Fallout 3, an Oblivion styled world while STILL keeping the traditional formula; huge world, story, V.A.T.S., dark-witty humor (Though not as much as new vegas).

There wasn't much for character, but its pretty damned difficult to write diverse characters when there is the entire world one must focus on first.

If there is one complaint I hate more in most RPG's is that we should take a step back to this:

Or this:

Thats not roleplaying, thats just following a path and using what weapons/powers you want, wait, that sounds like a- Typical Expectation from a First Person Shooter.

People always bring up the old days, as much as nostalgia is great and we should learn from the past, we should NOT be using it as the main way to the future. We wa-NO, NEED, games to advance in order to make them better: RPG's, FPS's, JRPG's whatever the genre.

So complain all you wish, I don't have anything against you. You have your opinions and I have mine, but take a look at what we have now to what we have then:

2012:

2003:

Notice a difference? And before you drop the "No, they're both horribly written games that are bugged to hell" line, THINK about what we have. There is more than meets the eye.

There certainly is. For instance, without today's powerful processors, the following just wouldn't be possible:

 

[Kahunaburger]

-Difficult combat system that explained little to nothing.
-Normal difficulty was too hard for a lot of people

It does boggle my mind that Dragon Age: Origins was too hard for people. It requires you to master exactly one tactic to beat anything in the game (two if you count kiting.)

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

I have to laugh at anyone trying to defend the new action "RPGs" as being complex -or even more laughable, more complex- than the old, proper RPGs. If this is your opinion, you're just plain wrong and it's 99% certain you haven't even played a proper RPG. No doubt some 14 year old will come along now and accuse me of elitism, which is the usual response of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about to someone who does.

 

[scorptatious]

I don't what it is with these nostalgia threads, but they just bug the hell out of me.

OT: Now, I do like a lot of older RPG's as you can tell by my avatar. And while I can somewhat agree with some people's complaints about some of modern day RPG's, I still have fun with them. The Mass Effect games had an engaging story-line with a great cast of characters and RPG aspects.

FFXIII, contrary to popular belief, is a good game with a unique and fast paced combat system, likable characters, awesome bosses, and good music. I can agree however that it's pretty linear with it's level design. But the second half of the game kinda makes up for that.

And from what I've heard, Xenoblade is a really good game. I may actually try it out sometime.

Again, there is no "nostalgia" in sight here. Things have changed and many of us think that change has been for the worse. This is a perfectly reasonable position to take, it has nothing to do with being blinded by nostalgia.

But your opinion of FFXIII suggests that you and I have radically different ideas about what constitutes "good" or "bad", so I guess there's not much point debating it.

Not really. I've read some of your other posts, and I do agree with you on player choice and the ability to form your own character. Games like Demon's Souls and Dark Souls (Which I neglected to mention in my last post) provide this.

I'll admit, FFXIII isn't without it's flaws. Compared to some of the older FF's like say, FFVII, the ability to choose how your characters develop is more limited. Plus the game's story could have been better. All in all though, I still feel the game is good on it's own merits and is given more hate than it deserves.

 

[Warped_Ghost]

-Difficult combat system that explained little to nothing.
-Normal difficulty was too hard for a lot of people

It does boggle my mind that Dragon Age: Origins was too hard for people. It requires you to master exactly one tactic to beat anything in the game (two if you count kiting.)

Did you play on the PC version or a console version?

 

[Kahunaburger]

-Difficult combat system that explained little to nothing.
-Normal difficulty was too hard for a lot of people

It does boggle my mind that Dragon Age: Origins was too hard for people. It requires you to master exactly one tactic to beat anything in the game (two if you count kiting.)

Did you play on the PC version or a console version?

PC - I heard the console version had bad controls, but I'm not sure that increases the difficulty in a game where you can pause and give orders.

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

*looks at Legend of Mana*

*looks at Wild ARMs*

*looks at Chrono Trigger*

*looks at Secret of Mana*

I know how you feel, OP. I know how you feel.

Captcha: labour of love.

WTH, captcha?!?!

 

[Warped_Ghost]

-Difficult combat system that explained little to nothing.
-Normal difficulty was too hard for a lot of people

It does boggle my mind that Dragon Age: Origins was too hard for people. It requires you to master exactly one tactic to beat anything in the game (two if you count kiting.)

Did you play on the PC version or a console version?

PC - I heard the console version had bad controls, but I'm not sure that increases the difficulty in a game where you can pause and give orders.

It still kinda did because not only were the controls not the greatest but the view was zoomed in to one character at a time. Even though you could pause time it still took away earlier awareness of situations were you should pause the game.

 

[kortin]

You can't get anywhere by using the same tired formula. Remember that. The old has to be done away to make room for the new.

 

[CAPTCHA]

I have to laugh at anyone trying to defend the new action "RPGs" as being complex -or even more laughable, more complex- than the old, proper RPGs. If this is your opinion, you're just plain wrong and it's 99% certain you haven't even played a proper RPG. No doubt some 14 year old will come along now and accuse me of elitism, which is the usual response of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about to someone who does.

How old are we talking here? I'd say Skyrim was far more complex than Pool of Radiance, even though they are essentially the same game. Also streamlining is not always a bad thing. That's why people prefer a good GUI for their OS over typing in algorithms manually, even if the latter can offer more vesitility. Complexity is a matter of taste and function, not necessarily a requirement for quality.

 

[Vault101]

I do not wear glasses, and stay away from the distorting nostalgia goggles too.

Instead, I like changes, improvements, new ideas and streamlining in places where it fits. I'm not saying older RPG's were nor are bad, but I'm just not jumping into this nostalgic train. Those that tend to have hints of elitism around here and there.

thankyouthankoyuthankouythankyouthankyouthankyou

god...no offence but the nostalga wank is getting too much for me (not saying they dont have a point) but its almost enough to drive me to away...to IGN where they are dumb but happy

ok yeah, I'm being an ass but this shit is all I've been hearing latley

oh and especially when somone who points out how young they are goes off about "todays games"

 

[Vault101]

I don't what it is with these nostalgia threads, but they just bug the hell out of me.

.

I know how you feel...it actually makes me angry for some reason

while I can understand the apeal of all this complex RPG type stuff....I think I'd still take a game Like Mass effect 2 or 3 any day (and come on..ME1 wasnt even that good, admit it)

actiony fun with "talky/cinematic/story" fun

I loved Fallout NV as well

 

[Vault101]

I have to laugh at anyone trying to defend the new action "RPGs" as being complex -or even more laughable, more complex- than the old, proper RPGs. If this is your opinion, you're just plain wrong and it's 99% certain you haven't even played a proper RPG. No doubt some 14 year old will come along now and accuse me of elitism, which is the usual response of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about to someone who does.

I'm 20 and you sound pretty elitist to me

but seriosuly....examples of a "real" RPG?

 

[Vault101]

Without the human/humanoid aspect of your character, you lose so much in terms of story telling. Think of your favorite books, movies, comics....the best stories are those that deal with character developement. You lose that in the "blank slate, giant world" games.

I disliked Skryim/Oblivion for thease very reasons....but I think those have more to do with the games themselfs that a current trend in modern games

hance why I much prefered Fallout 3 and Fallout NV

 

[DeathSwitch109]

While I do miss the old RPG style, action RPG's are still fun. If I had it my way both styles would be equally successful...but we don't live in that kind of world.