I need to pick a gun expert's brains for a minute

[Zantos]

So I'm in the planning stages of writing a book, currently in the character plan stage, and I've got one who is a specialist with sniper rifles. Now I'm reading up as much as I can, but reading will only get you so far, so I'd like someone who properly collects, researches or fires these type of guns to give me some actual experienced input on differences between certain styles of rifles.

Specifically I'd like to know about the differences in handling and use between smaller calibre rifles such as the 7.62mm or .308 rifles, and the larger 50 calibre anti-material rifles. Also the advantages, disadvantages and difference in use between semi-automatic rifles and bolt-action rifles. Though any other bits of trivia or information that would make the guy come across as more of an expert would be fantastically useful.

Anything you can provide would be helpful, but examples of what situations each is used in and notable differences in handling would be brilliant. Thanks!

 

[TheMann]

Well this all depends on what the character's goals are or what his/her mission is. The standard anti-personnel round is still the 7.62x51mm NATO (the .308 Winchester is the exact same round marketed for hunting purposes). The anti-materials rounds, like the .50 BMG obviously do more damage and have a longer range, but the weapons themselves are extremely bulky.

So, obviously, if your mission parameters involve only anti-personnel, then you'd be using the 7.62, mainly because the rifle weighs so much less and can be slung. The popular model is still the Remington 700 bolt action, known in the military as the M24. The .50 cal rifles, the most popular being the Barrett M82A1, weighs in at 35 lbs. This is unloaded and without a scope attached. I handled one at a gun show, and would hate to think of hauling it through the woods for days. The new M107 is a new bolt action version that's bit lighter, but not enough to make that much difference. Still, if you're trying to take out heavier targets, this is what you'll be using. The .50 cal can ruin mobile radar stations and even small aircraft (when parked), with a single shot through the engine.

The difference between bolt action and semi-auto: Bolt action rifles are generally considered more accurate due to the fact that there is no mechanism slamming back and forth to cycle the next round. The drawback is obviously that the bolt has to be cycled manually and so the shooter has to take their eyes off the target(s) between shots. Semi-auto rifles are generally used when there might be multiple targets. Newer semi-autos are starting to rival the bolt action in accuracy, but these are incredibly expensive. Another role is the "light sniper" rifle, the most notable being the Springfield M1A 7.62mm (military designation M21). If you're character is actively working with a squad and has to stay moving, this is almost always what they will be using. It's light, very mobile and allows for rapid shots. These are the three main sniper weapons in the US. If I went into all NATO weapons, I'd be here all day.

Handling: The Remington 700 has a turned down bolt to accommodate the scope. It uses a 5 rd. detachable box magazine that fits flush with the fore-grip and an optional bi-pod. This makes reloading slower, but since it's supposed to be a "one-shot, one-kill" weapon, that shouldn't be an issue.

The Barrett .50 models use a 5 rd. box magazine that protrudes from the bottom of the chamber and come standard with a heavy bi-pod. This makes reloading faster, but the heavy recoil means that rapid fire is inadvisable. It has a very long range and does considerable damage, however.

The Springfield M1A uses a 5 rd. or, more commonly, a 20 rd. box magazine. It's accurate and allows for quick firing and reloading. I was so impressed when I used it at a range, I plan on purchasing one at some point. Still if your character is a lone wolf type, they'll be using the 700.

Reference pics:

Spoiler: Remington 700 (M24)

Spoiler: Barrett M82A1

Spoiler: Springfield M1A (M21)

Others:

Spoiler: H&K PSG-1 7.62mm (looks cool but kind of worthless)

Spoiler: M110 7.62mm The army's latest ass-kicker. Illuminated scope and suppressor to boot.

Also keep in mind that even a single sniper will generally have a spotter with them. This is a guy with binoculars or small telescope that aids the shooter in finding targets and giving other tactical information.

Well, I had way too much time on my hands. Hope this helped.

 

[Zantos]

Snip

Thank you so much! This is really good stuff, it's a huge amount of help.

 

[Jareth43]

Well this all depends on what the character's goals are or what his/her mission is. The standard anti-personnel round is still the 7.62x51mm NATO (the .308 Winchester is the exact same round marketed for hunting purposes). The anti-materials rounds, like the .50 BMG obviously do more damage and have a longer range, but the weapons themselves are extremely bulky.

You are wrong about the Remmington .308in being the same as a 7.62x51mm NATO ball round. There are differences. NATO rounds are manufactured with lower tolerences for things like jacket thickness, powder blending, and most importantly shot start pressure. NATO rounds have a far higher shot start pressure to allow the maximum amount of energy to be imparted into the target.If you attempt to use a NATO round in a non NATO weapons (ie civilian weapon) you will rupture the chamber.

Anyway. Having been trained to you use the Accuracy International 12.7x99mm (.50cal) Anti-Material rifle I can tell you it is not that heavy, only about 5.5kg (roughly 11lbs) (with rounds in the magizine and day/night scope attached) which is a little bit lighter than the M249 SAW/ LSW C9 / Minime SSW which weighs in a 6kg (roughly 12lbs) however for its combat capabilities it is completly unparalled, it can take out light armour targets (Jeeps, Humvees etc) which is impossible with the 7.62mm

For another point of comparison you have the available ammunition. NATO does not have any 7.62x51mm ammunition with HE. However it is common practise for .50cal snipers to have MP (multi-purpose) ammunition which is High Explosive, Armour Piercing Hard Core, Incindeiary. It will make a mess of anything short of a battle tank.

All this said however does not go on to say that the 7.62x51mm does not have its place on the battlefield. It is most commonly used in a dedicated marksmans rifle like the M110 which is a semi automatic long range rifle, good for urban terran sharpshooting or infantry patrol support as it should confirm a kill at 800m (sorry can't convert to ft)

Now to compare bolt action vs Semi Automatic.
TheMann nailed most of the points in this argument but missed one that can be critical to a sniper in a concealed postion, Stealth. The movement of a Semi Automatic rifle, of any sort, makes noise. And its very distinctive. So when dealing with supersonic rounds the noise of the reload is heard when the shot its self is not (the target is dead before the noise reaches him.) For this reasin it is normally considered a moot point but has its place in Jungle warfare when the shot sound echoes as it travels distorting the ability to track its origin but the clack of a rifle actionis more sharp and easier followed.
In the stealth catagory also lies collecting (or Policing) your brass. With a Semi Automatic, the rounds are thrown up to 3m away from you with out any pragmatic way of catching them. With a bolt action you can use your other hand to slowly (and quietly) remove the spent brass from the weapon and place it straight into the appropriate pouch.

Also the idea that you have to look away from your target to reload a Bolt Action is a load of Hog Wash. On my snipers course we spent weeks on the range practising rapid reloading with out looking out of the scope.



Before I get hunters and gun nuts screaming at me, I am a soldier. I am an Ammuniton and Explosives Technician, trained in bomb disposal (during the course of which I trained on the afore mentioned Anti-Material Rifle.) It is my job to know of these things and I am good at my job


An a less serious note, your characters are fictional. I applaud your search for accuracy in writing but what happens will not be replecated in real life so the final decision is entirely up to you

 

[Zantos]

Snip

Wow thanks, I'm really glad I've managed to get someone professionally trained in it. This is brilliant. And trust me, I'm still taking a lot of liberties as it is. At one point the guy goes into a cupboard and grabs an 80 calibre "railrifle". This is mostly just because I don't want to say something really asshat stupid.

 

[SckizoBoy]

Wow thanks, I'm really glad I've managed to get someone professionally trained in it. This is brilliant. And trust me, I'm still taking a lot of liberties as it is. At one point the guy goes into a cupboard and grabs an 80 calibre "railrifle". This is mostly just because I don't want to say something really asshat stupid.

Two things:

1. Does 'calibre' refer to the ammunition or 'barrel' length?
2. By 'railrifle' do you mean a railgun (a high muzzle velocity... wait wait, you're a physicist, you should know this...?!

Apologies... I'll slink away now...

 

[Zantos]

Wow thanks, I'm really glad I've managed to get someone professionally trained in it. This is brilliant. And trust me, I'm still taking a lot of liberties as it is. At one point the guy goes into a cupboard and grabs an 80 calibre "railrifle". This is mostly just because I don't want to say something really asshat stupid.

Two things:

1. Does 'calibre' refer to the ammunition or 'barrel' length?
2. By 'railrifle' do you mean a railgun (a high muzzle velocity... wait wait, you're a physicist, you should know this...?!

Apologies... I'll slink away now...

Calibre is the diameter of the bullet, there are 100 calibres to an inch. And yeah, it's basically a rail gun. Except rather than the giant nuclear powered monsters that we've come to know and love, it's a large anti-material rifle which isn't strictly possible with current technology. As I say, taking liberties.

 

[SckizoBoy]

Calibre is the diameter of the bullet, there are 100 calibres to an inch. And yeah, it's basically a rail gun. Except rather than the giant nuclear powered monsters that we've come to know and love, it's a large anti-material rifle which isn't strictly possible with current technology. As I say, taking liberties.

Oh, no, I knew that, I was wondering whether you meant an 80 calibre barrel (a barrel length equal to 80 x shell calibre). *shrug*

 

[Zantos]

Calibre is the diameter of the bullet, there are 100 calibres to an inch. And yeah, it's basically a rail gun. Except rather than the giant nuclear powered monsters that we've come to know and love, it's a large anti-material rifle which isn't strictly possible with current technology. As I say, taking liberties.

Oh, no, I knew that, I was wondering whether you meant an 80 calibre barrel (a barrel length equal to 80 x shell calibre). *shrug*

I have never heard of that being used as a measurement. Weird. You'd think they'd use different names. I hate people naming things.

 

[The Man With the Soap]

Snip

Wow thanks, I'm really glad I've managed to get someone professionally trained in it. This is brilliant. And trust me, I'm still taking a lot of liberties as it is. At one point the guy goes into a cupboard and grabs an 80 calibre "railrifle". This is mostly just because I don't want to say something really asshat stupid.

If you're going for realism (which I believe you are) abandon the eighty-caliber idea. A weapon firing a fifty-caliber round already kicks like a mule and is more than sufficient for almost any job required of a long-range rifle. An eighty caliber round would almost need to be classified as artillery rather than riflery. It would be like trying to absorb the kick from a twenty mm cannon with your shoulder. If you don't lose your arm, it's at least been dislocated, even from he prone position. But, if you are going for something wacky and over-the-top, then stick with the eighty-caliber idea.

Also, despite what games like Call of Duty and the media in general seem to claim, you cannot just off and fire a Barrett M82A1 from a standing position. The recoil is enough to dislocate your shoulder unless you fire from a prone position or with the rifle supported in some way. Another thing about your fifty cal. anti-mats, these rifles are meant to be used for targets at extreme distances (meaning in excess of 1,000 yards). Also at these distances, there are many factors that need to be considered before a shot can be made: wind speed and direction, bullet arc, and humidity are just a few. These rifles also have extremely loud reports.

I know it's been said, but I'll say it again, bolt-action rifles generally maintain a tighter grouping than semis, but semi-auto technology is improving everyday.

I am also shocked people have mentioned the 7.62mm round, but have not mentioned the M14. The M14 is a rifle that has had a bit of a resurrection as a DMR weapon in recent years. It is often issued to sniper teams operating in urban environments.

 

[Jareth43]

Wow thanks, I'm really glad I've managed to get someone professionally trained in it. This is brilliant. And trust me, I'm still taking a lot of liberties as it is. At one point the guy goes into a cupboard and grabs an 80 calibre "railrifle". This is mostly just because I don't want to say something really asshat stupid.

Two things:

1. Does 'calibre' refer to the ammunition or 'barrel' length?
2. By 'railrifle' do you mean a railgun (a high muzzle velocity... wait wait, you're a physicist, you should know this...?!

Apologies... I'll slink away now...

Calibre is the diameter of the bullet, there are 100 calibres to an inch.

Sorry but your wrong. A calibre is a point of an inch. ie .50in (50cal) is half an inch in diameter. 80cal would be .80in or 31.25mm
At this point I would like to point out that a bushmaster cannon fires 25mm rounds, and the A-10 Thunderbolt fires 30mm. As for 'Railguns' being viable, the Americans are working on it...

As for the 50cal kicking like a mule, your right but not really the best description. When i fire the weapon im set back somethig close to a foot. However it doesn't actualy hurt to fire. The idea of firing a .80in weeapon from the prone would only be inaccurate, not truely painful (unless the weapon wasnt properly pressed into your shoulder, then it would destroy the bone)

As for firing the 50cal from standing, it can be done, but its very difficult. Mostly in supporting the long barrel to remain on target. The recoil just sat me on my ass, no dislocations or even fractures.

I agree with the points made about LR (long Range) shots. however as for the weapon reports, suppresors have been made. And much to my surprise (the cynic that I am) a suppressed Accuracy International Anti-Material .50in rifle actually makes a hissing sound. Its just very loud. Its something akin to releasing the pressure on AirCompressure tank, only for a split second. At ranges of, say, 1200m (my favourite range) the noise would be close to inaudible, or at the very least very hard to track.

Back to trying to use a man portable railrifle, the idea is fesable. Mostly because the current railguns (3500mm diameter projectiles) have no recoil, mostly because the magnets used to propel the projectile absorb the reaction forces in the form of electrical energy. The physics does work and I can explain it but its too much effort for now.

Opinion time:
The M14 as weapon. NO! Bad America!
the weapon has one key design fault wich cannot be remieded as doing so would change the weapon to radically to be still considered the M14.
Said key fault is the loop shape in the small of the butt. This acts as a pivot for the weapon and causes drastic muzzle lift massive headaches trying to hold your point of aim

well thats my 20c worth

 

[Zantos]

Wow thanks, I'm really glad I've managed to get someone professionally trained in it. This is brilliant. And trust me, I'm still taking a lot of liberties as it is. At one point the guy goes into a cupboard and grabs an 80 calibre "railrifle". This is mostly just because I don't want to say something really asshat stupid.

Two things:

1. Does 'calibre' refer to the ammunition or 'barrel' length?
2. By 'railrifle' do you mean a railgun (a high muzzle velocity... wait wait, you're a physicist, you should know this...?!

Apologies... I'll slink away now...

Calibre is the diameter of the bullet, there are 100 calibres to an inch.

Sorry but your wrong. A calibre is a point of an inch. ie .50in (50cal) is half an inch in diameter. 80cal would be .80in or 31.25mm
At this point I would like to point out that a bushmaster cannon fires 25mm rounds, and the A-10 Thunderbolt fires 30mm. As for 'Railguns' being viable, the Americans are working on it...

As for the 50cal kicking like a mule, your right but not really the best description. When i fire the weapon im set back somethig close to a foot. However it doesn't actualy hurt to fire. The idea of firing a .80in weeapon from the prone would only be inaccurate, not truely painful (unless the weapon wasnt properly pressed into your shoulder, then it would destroy the bone)

As for firing the 50cal from standing, it can be done, but its very difficult. Mostly in supporting the long barrel to remain on target. The recoil just sat me on my ass, no dislocations or even fractures.

I agree with the points made about LR (long Range) shots. however as for the weapon reports, suppresors have been made. And much to my surprise (the cynic that I am) a suppressed Accuracy International Anti-Material .50in rifle actually makes a hissing sound. Its just very loud. Its something akin to releasing the pressure on AirCompressure tank, only for a split second. At ranges of, say, 1200m (my favourite range) the noise would be close to inaudible, or at the very least very hard to track.

Back to trying to use a man portable railrifle, the idea is fesable. Mostly because the current railguns (3500mm diameter projectiles) have no recoil, mostly because the magnets used to propel the projectile absorb the reaction forces in the form of electrical energy. The physics does work and I can explain it but its too much effort for now.

Opinion time:
The M14 as weapon. NO! Bad America!
the weapon has one key design fault wich cannot be remieded as doing so would change the weapon to radically to be still considered the M14.
Said key fault is the loop shape in the small of the butt. This acts as a pivot for the weapon and causes drastic muzzle lift massive headaches trying to hold your point of aim

well thats my 20c worth

How is that wrong? If 50 calibre is half an inch (.50in), a full inch is 100 calibre.

But yeah, the 80 was just an idea floating around it my head. If it did get included, it was going to have to be mounted to hydraulics to counter recoil, making it completely useless at anything than putting a single massive hole in something. The problem with a portable railgun is in the power required to make it work. In current testing they're wired up to nuclear reactors, not exactly portable. If it was going to get included it would have something fictional and probably to do with fusion cells, but it's a work in progress and things are going to get a lot of changing.

Also you don't need to explain the physics. I may not know much about guns, but physics is my little friend. I'm actually wanting to go into military R&D either after I get a masters or a pHd.

 

[Jareth43]

Sorry about that. It was partly my interpritation of your statement and partly me missinga nother point in reagrds to calibre. for a weapon to considered Small arms it must be under 20mm in diameter (I have no idea what a calibre would be for that, we just call it 20mm cannon Ammo) so a .80in at 31.25mm wiuld be a large cannon round. No longer a proper small arm. The largest small arms I know of is the .60in rubber bullet fired from a m203 grenade launcher.

Anywho off to work now