I (Still) Have a Problem With Dark Souls.

[Olas]

So a little over 6 months ago I started playing Dark Souls, by and large I thought it was great, brilliant even in some respects. However, there was one aspect of the game that just kept nagging at me, and I decided to post a [a href="http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.847113-I-have-a-problem-with-Dark-Souls"]thread[/a] about it.

Basically I was bothered that grinding for souls in the game is incredibly easy, and that one can effectively level up forever just by re-killing the same enemies again and again without any additional challenge or exploration. In fact this tends to naturally occur if you keep dying and retrieving your souls again. In a game that has so much focus on stats and leveling, and that also get's praised for being challenging, it seemed like a gaping hole in the overall design.

What weirded me out the most though, was that I seem to be the only person in the world who saw this as a negative. Most people seem to LIKE this element and will even recommend places to farm souls easily for hours. It seems so weird, it's not fun, and it feels game-breaking.

Although you can read the thread to see how people responded to this, by and large they dismissed my criticism by saying that later in the game farming for souls becomes less helpful, that soul leveling gets diminishing returns, and mostly that I hadn't played enough to know what I was talking about.

Anyway, I finally just beat the game today, and I thought I'd give an update on my feelings about it. My opinion hasn't changed, in fact it's mostly gotten stronger. The fact that character stats become less important as the game progresses doesn't really matter, because nearly everything else that can help you can also be bought with souls. Weapons can be bought with souls, spells can be bought, titanite shards can be bought with souls, even some of the rarer kinds, and they don't even become more expensive. Even item drops that can't be purchased can still be farmed by repeatedly killing the enemies that drop them. Obviously to acquire new items you need to progress, but even early items can be effective when upgraded fully.

Anyway, I know I come across as some nitpicky asshole who just wants to find the negative in an otherwise good game. Please don't take it personally if you like the game. I do too, I wouldn't have beaten it and posted a thread topic on it otherwise. I just feel confused how a game so lovingly crafted can have such a glaring flaw, and how it's never brought up by anyone when talking about the game.

 

[blackdwarf]

personally I I don't think it is a real issue because it just another option to progress in the game. It is true that you can farm souls on certain spots to overpower certain parts with your superior stats, but it is not the only way to to beat this game. If you look at certain speed runners, you see that aren't beating bosses because they got the solid stats, but because they are really good at playing the game or have good gear.

In my first play through I had my moments where I farmed souls. each run gave me 9000 souls and the bonfire was near, so easy game, easy life. But the only reason I farmed those souls there, was because I was struggling with a boss (Ornstein and Smough, who else.)At that moment there were other options for me to do. I could other bosses, like optional ones I knew. Get gear that is better for this boss battle (Quellag fire sword is a solid option and requires another boss soul), improve your gear that sometimes require reagents you can't buy, get better at the game, or finally, farm souls and get better stats.

The choice has more to do what you prefer. There isn't really a universal best way. Some like to farm, some like to find better gear, some want to other stuff and get back later and some just want to brute force it.

And to be clear, and Miyazaki the director said this himself, you can't gimmick the game. If your way gets you the progress, then that is a viable way to beat the game. Dark Souls is just great in the aspect that you have more choices and ways.

 

[Phasmal]

I'm kinda confused as to what your problem is with it.
Yeah, you can farm souls endlessly, but why would you? You can also level as you go and spend souls that way, finding items to use and never really buying anything. Or you can beat the game at Soul Level 1. I don't see much focus on stats and leveling.

That's kinda what I like about Dark Souls, that there's many ways to go about it.

 

[Magicite Spring]

The problem with your argument is that you can't upgrade your weapons fully just by getting souls cause the only upgrade materials that you can buy are Titanite shards, large titanite shards and green titanite shards. All other shards cannot be bought and require you to find around the world. This means that you can't fully upgrade your gear just by getting souls, you do need to explore and find things.

In terms of spells as well, you still need to find the vendors that sell the spells, so even that still requires you to explore the world.

Basically, you can't fully upgrade your character/weapons by farming for souls in one place cause you will end up not getting enough souls to make it worthwhile and you can't buy Titanite Chunks, Slabs or any of the other colours of titanite to fully upgrade your weapons.

 

[BraveSirRobin]

I don't really see where you get the idea that the game has a huge focus on leveling. The levels are basically only important in so far as to get the stats for the weapon you want to use, beyond that it's pretty pointless to actually level up. That also seems like a really boring way to play the game. Honestly given that it's entirely unnecessary to farm in order to beat the game, that levels are really unimportant in that game, and that it's mostly single player I really don't care that it's possible. If some guy wants to farm to level 700 more power to him; it won't affect how I play the game.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Maybe initially, but eventually the amount of souls you need to level up becomes so ludicrously high, and the benifits so negligible that it's the same as trying to empty out a swimming pool with a thimble; Sure, it can be done, but you'll have gone totally insane by the end. Maybe if you had some slave working for you round the clock to level up this way, otherwise it's not what I would call an efficient cheat.

 

[StriderShinryu]

As others have already said, I think you're just focusing on an aspect of the game that is totally optional. If anything you've just provided more proof that Dark Souls doesn't need any sort of selectable difficulty level system. Sure you can farm for Souls and that can help you in various ways, but you can also Soul Level 1 the game and never spend any Souls at all. Having organic player selectable approaches to the game is a complete positive and not a negative. I mean, if you're really concerned that you have all of those Souls and feel forced to use/spend them somehow then just intentionally kill yourself twice without Soul retrieval them and they're gone. Problem solved.

 

[TheVampwizimp_v1legacy]

Is it a flaw in a game when, say, an MMO allows you to repeatedly defeat raid bosses to level up and get legendary gear? You could theoretically do this a thousand times until you max everything in the game, and everything from there on out is trivially easy.

I've never heard anyone make this complaint, but I've seen several people bringing up this issue where Dark Souls is concerned. I don't really understand it. Absolutely, you could spend all your time in a game grinding to reach the level cap. This would be possible in literally any open-world RPG, any game with respawning enemies. But Dark Souls is the only game that gets flak for allowing you to waste your time indefinitely.

Is this because of the much-publicized focus on difficulty? Do people assume that you just shouldn't be able to exploit this particular game because it's supposed to be hard? Silliness, I say. The game allows you to play however you want. If you end up wasting hours farming souls and equipment, then that was your choice. The game forced nothing on you.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

You think a game that can be beaten with zero upgrades is focused on leveling? I don't see how that makes sense.

As others have pointed out; leveling in DS is very much an extension of the player's choice and preferences. I personally found it enjoyable (honing my skills, testing out new weapons or tactics, leveling heavily to upgrade certain stats to try out new gear, etc), as well as liberating, i.e. if I really started to get my ass kicked, I could level a certain stat to give myself an edge or just level the playing field.

Equipping certain item combos and farming the Phalanx repeatedly was a peculiarly satisfying mini ritual... done between exploring the latter stages of the game, and if I wanted to level or buy a whole bunch of items or gear (often to upgrade weapons to compare strengths and weaknesses).

...and will even recommend places to farm souls easily for hours. It seems so weird, it's not fun, and it feels game-breaking.

People also recommended certain item and stat combinations. Or spear/ranged melee use. Or pure mage builds. Or tips for hybrids. Or shortcuts. Or getting certain items very early on. Or using a boss soul in a certain way. And so on.

DS fans can recommend a hundred and one different tactics or playstyles, and that's the beauty of it. Or, well, one of them. I personally think it's one of the best, and most memorable, games I've played in close to twenty five years of gaming (I didn't play Demon's Souls, so I'd never played anything quite like it).

 

[Fox12]

Well, you can, but it's dreadfully inefficient. You can level cloud up to level 99 in the ff7 tutorial too if you wanted, but the amount of time and effort needed would be soul crushing. And, to make matters worse, the returns for this effort would be negligible at best. Any benefit you receive at the beginning would dicipate with time. It's not unique to dark souls, it's just level grinding. But the level grinding here is far less helpful then in othe RPGs, and it requires more time.

In fact, many builds DISCOURAGE you from leveling, as it makes it harder to find allies and opponents to invade, both of which are more important then leveling up.

Go spend 10 hours in the catacombs if you want, but the wasted time doesn't justify the benefits to me.

 

[Olas]

I don't really see where you get the idea that the game has a huge focus on leveling. The levels are basically only important in so far as to get the stats for the weapon you want to use, beyond that it's pretty pointless to actually level up. That also seems like a really boring way to play the game. Honestly given that it's entirely unnecessary to farm in order to beat the game, that levels are really unimportant in that game, and that it's mostly single player I really don't care that it's possible. If some guy wants to farm to level 700 more power to him; it won't affect how I play the game.

My point is that leveling isn't the only thing souls are useful for. Many, if not most of the items in the game such as armor and weapons can be upgraded with titanite shards that the giant blacksmith sells.

The problem with your argument is that you can't upgrade your weapons fully just by getting souls cause the only upgrade materials that you can buy are Titanite shards, large titanite shards and green titanite shards. All other shards cannot be bought and require you to find around the world. This means that you can't fully upgrade your gear just by getting souls, you do need to explore and find things.

You can also buy twinkling titanite from the giant blacksmith, which a LOT of weapons and armor rely on for upgrading. I'll admit the build I chose didn't rely on red/blue/demon titanite much, so the relative difficulty of acquiring those didn't affect me as much as it would some other builds.

Is it a flaw in a game when, say, an MMO allows you to repeatedly defeat raid bosses to level up and get legendary gear? You could theoretically do this a thousand times until you max everything in the game, and everything from there on out is trivially easy.

I would think so, yes. I'm not claiming this issue is unique to Dark Souls, only that Dark Souls is the first major game I've played where I've noticed it. I don't play many MMOs or RPGs so that's probably why I haven't encountered it more. That being said, from my experience XP isn't usually used as a form of near universal currency the way souls are in Dark Souls.

Is this because of the much-publicized focus on difficulty? Do people assume that you just shouldn't be able to exploit this particular game because it's supposed to be hard? Silliness, I say. The game allows you to play however you want. If you end up wasting hours farming souls and equipment, then that was your choice. The game forced nothing on you.

It's not that I think the game should be a particular difficulty. I just think it undermines the concept of an in-game economy when you're effectively allowed to print unlimited money.

The argument that the game is doing you a favor by providing you more options doesn't make much sense to me either. I'm all for giving the player more options and freedom, ie stealth vs open combat, melee weapons vs ranged, but usually those options don't significantly alter the degree of challenge, they only alter the TYPE of challenge. If one method of playing through a game is easier than another, it usually results in a worse ending or something. Games are generally expected to place rules and limitations on the player so that player has to work hard to win; that's why you don't usually receive OP weapons really early on in a game, ya you can always choose not to use them, but then the player is having to place rules on themselves in order to enjoy the game, which the game should be doing for them.

As others have already said, I think you're just focusing on an aspect of the game that is totally optional. If anything you've just provided more proof that Dark Souls doesn't need any sort of selectable difficulty level system. Sure you can farm for Souls and that can help you in various ways, but you can also Soul Level 1 the game and never spend any Souls at all. Having organic player selectable approaches to the game is a complete positive and not a negative. I mean, if you're really concerned that you have all of those Souls and feel forced to use/spend them somehow then just intentionally kill yourself twice without Soul retrieval them and they're gone. Problem solved.

Thinking of soul farming as a form of difficulty selection, if a bit unorthodox, is legitimate I suppose. The idea of suiciding after reaching bonfires is interesting, although not all bonfires are near some kind of ledge. The way I see it, you would only be allowed to use souls that came in the form of usable items. It would make the game very hard though.

 

[TrevHead]

In some respect's I agree that leveling does damage the games difficulty just like Ninja Gaiden allows players to stock up on items allowing the player to cheese difficult parts or the game.

That said the RPG mechanics in Dark Souls are fun in itself which I feel more than makes up for the loss of difficulty.

Since you say you played DS only 6 months ago, it's worth pointing out that since release FROM increased drop rates for both souls and humanities and made it so certain shards like IIRC Twinkle shards purchasable from the giant blacksmith. If you are playing the console version you could try playing it unpatched v1.0 offline to get the true DS experience.

 

[LostCrusader]

The argument that the game is doing you a favor by providing you more options doesn't make much sense to me either. I'm all for giving the player more options and freedom, ie stealth vs open combat, melee weapons vs ranged, but usually those options don't significantly alter the degree of challenge, they only alter the TYPE of challenge. If one method of playing through a game is easier than another, it usually results in a worse ending or something. Games are generally expected to place rules and limitations on the player so that player has to work hard to win; that's why you don't usually receive OP weapons really early on in a game, ya you can always choose not to use them, but then the player is having to place rules on themselves in order to enjoy the game, which the game should be doing for them.

Dark Souls doesn't really let you get too overpowered early on without progressing up to the point where you can find the vendors to sell you materials. You can't go and buy the materials to max out your weapons until you get to Anor Londo, which is already about half way through the game, and you can't just go buy all the spells you want because the vendors will limit how many the sell you. Sure you can buys some weapons from vendors but the strongest weapons will require you to defeat the bosses and trade their souls. All farming really does is let you come back to a challenging section with slightly increased stats, which is honestly a lot less important than the experience the player gets from learning from past mistakes.

Also, not sure if it really means that the creators agree with you to a degree, but in dark souls 2 you can't infinite farm nearly all of the enemies. They will stop spawning after a set number of deaths (7?) before they don't appear again until NG+.

 

[Olas]

Also, not sure if it really means that the creators agree with you to a degree, but in dark souls 2 you can't infinite farm nearly all of the enemies. They will stop spawning after a set number of deaths (7?) before they don't appear again until NG+.

So I've heard. It solves the problem of infinite soul farming, but I don't really like the idea of enemies disappearing permanently, I feel it would make the environments very barren. In my ideal version the enemies would continue to respawn but would only reward you with souls once (unless you lose them through death).

 

[LostCrusader]

Also, not sure if it really means that the creators agree with you to a degree, but in dark souls 2 you can't infinite farm nearly all of the enemies. They will stop spawning after a set number of deaths (7?) before they don't appear again until NG+.

So I've heard. It solves the problem of infinite soul farming, but I don't really like the idea of enemies disappearing permanently, I feel it would make the environments very barren. In my ideal version the enemies would continue to respawn but would only reward you with souls once (unless you lose them through death).

Its only really happened to me for enemies that I am farming for one of their item drops or enemies that are practically on top of you at the bonfires. its not like you really need to have the enemies there to farm up souls, its almost always faster to just throw down your summon sign and help someone else kill the bosses.