I Think Gaming Needs a Renaming....

[Kavachi]

It IS a toy...

what are you even doing on the escapist?

saying such things on a gaming-lifestyle forum seems like trolling to me

toy   
[toi]
?noun
1.
an object, often a small representation of something familiar, as an animal or person, for children or others to play with; plaything.
2.
a thing or matter of little or no value or importance; a trifle.
3.
something that serves for or as if for diversion, rather than for serious pratical use.

read #3 very carefully!

So music is a toy and all sports are toys? Don't you see how ridiculous that sounds

footballs, basketballs ect are and the same with musical instruments. We never said gaming is a toy which is the arguement you are trying to use.

what are you talking about? the reason for this conversation is because it was a response on someone saying that games are toys. Look back in the history, you'll see why you don't make sense right now.

Yes it is a response to your post. I have been following along quite well. You might want to follow your own advice though. Playing sports is an action. Gaming is an action. The things required to do such actions are toys. A ball is a toy. A video game is a toy. Do you follow? Or do you need an english lesson on the difference between a noun and a verb? Or did you forget #3 already?

You can put things so nicely, really a people person. But if gaming is seen as an art (it is official now), instead of a sport, it is different. In sport, yes, a ball is indeed just a toy. With art it is different. A musical instrument is not a toy, a hammer to sculpt is not a toy, and video games are not "just toys", they are more than that. You can say that it is for entertainment, to pass the time, but that is the same with making/listening to music or making/watching paintings.

Here is two musical instrument, one I would call a toy the other I wouldn't. For me the game you have on you desk is closer to the toy one as it serves the same purpose.

Spoiler

Can you elaborate?

 

[Kavachi]

I don't want to be mature either, but there is a difference in being mature and being respected. You say video games are different from movies because they are interactive and you use it to pass the time (to play it for pleasure as you put it). Games are indeed interactive, this is where they differ from other art forms, but that does not mean it is just a toy. Passing time, or doing it for the pleasure is not only done with toys. Don't you listen to music to pass time, for pleasure? Don't you watch paintings to pass the time? You do. If they can do that and have respect, games should have that too.

Also, I don't care what other people think, untill it starts to hurt the industry. Right now it does. There is loads of debating on games, people don't want to give indie developers funding, australia is banning alot of games, and there are kids whose parents wont allow them to play games. This is why I defend gaming, and this is why this forum defends gaming.

Sure you can pass the time with a sorts of things, but it's that very interactivity that makes it a toy, you can't call music, films, books or paintings toys because you have no control over their content.
For example, a dvd can be a toy, you can use it as a frisbee or pretend to be a ninja with it, but the actual film on it [let's say Dirty Harry] isn't a toy, because you can't grab Clint Eastwood and play with him [as much as we'd all like to]
Games however, you can. The disc can be used to throw at people for enjoyment [if it's for example, a JRPG] or you can play it and beat the hell out of homeless people, you're involved you're playing and you're having fun. Toy.

Besides, I wouldn't necessarily say the stigma is hurting the industry, more and more people are coming over anyway, the Wii at least isn't trying to be anything but what it is, sure the quality of games may fluctuate for bad or good, but change is productive no matter, it's a better sign of the industry for fans to rally behind it saying "We no it's childish and we don't care" then by storming the gates of everyone who doesn't take us super seriously.

Hmm... you have really good points. I think I agree with you that games are toys, but at least toys with artistic value. Maybe games are something in between, I don't know, but they are definitly more than toys. Also, there are some games that are more interactive than others, and it still conveys emotions stronger than a regular toy. A story is told by a game, and for me that makes it more than just a toy. But indeed, it is interactive and therefore it is close to a toy, but it is not "JUST a toy". And I think alot of people only see the toy side, and not that it also has something artistic to it.

 

[MegaManOfNumbers]

It IS a toy...

LA Noire says HI.

 

[Kavachi]

To me it is nothing more, you interact with it for pleasure, it's a toy, it just has different pleasures for different people, it's like action man, he's a toy, but you can play anything with him from gardening to screwing barbie, but the bottom line he is a toy.
I'm not using toy negatively, I'm using it objectively. We shouldn't be ashamed to call them toys or even pursue careers in them, do you look down on the people that design dolls?. The beauty of games is that anyone can play despite it's toy status.

The thing separating games from books or film is the interactivity, you PLAY with games, sure different ages like different things to play with [personally I hate that stigma, I enjoy games for all ages] but you are still playing for pleasure, which usually includes fun, and if I ever consider myself too old for fun you all have permission to shoot me in the face.

Snip

Basically what I just said, except for this, you shouldn't need to stand up and defend gaming as something more than it is, I'm not being defeatist and sure I care about the industry, but I don't care what other people think about me and my toys. I still have my lego and watch cartoons, does that make me immature? Probably, do I care? Hell no. Maturity can go hang for all I care, it's boring and depressing.
But if you really need some degree of mature toys, look no further than dildos. I don't see the people using them trying to announce them as something other than toys.

I don't want to be mature either, but there is a difference in being mature and being respected. You say video games are different from movies because they are interactive and you use it to pass the time (to play it for pleasure as you put it). Games are indeed interactive, this is where they differ from other art forms, but that does not mean it is just a toy. Passing time, or doing it for the pleasure is not only done with toys. Don't you listen to music to pass time, for pleasure? Don't you watch paintings to pass the time? You do. If they can do that and have respect, games should have that too.

Also, I don't care what other people think, untill it starts to hurt the industry. Right now it does. There is loads of debating on games, people don't want to give indie developers funding, australia is banning alot of games, and there are kids whose parents wont allow them to play games. This is why I defend gaming, and this is why this forum defends gaming.

And for all your "defending" you miss one very important factor. People have a right to have their opinions. Who are you to tell a parent how to raise their child? Who are you to tell people they have to accept games? Not all games are art.

Oh and funny story about this forum "defending" video games. They will except when it comes to games they themselves don't accept. Yeah you are all ready to defend games as art and whatever until a Zynga game comes up then all the defending goes out the window. Once Zynga gets a mention the forum sounds exactly like the people you are "defending" games against. Funny how that works huh?

Actually I think what Zynga does is really good, showing people an easy portal to the gaming world. But alot of people hate it indeed, that is true. And yes, I do agree that you shouldn't force people to have an opinion. What I want however, is that people see what gaming really is before they don't accept it. If someone plays through portal, a very artsy game in my opinion, and says that he still doesn't think of games as an art, it is fine with me. People have opinions. But saying that games are bad just after seeing 2 minutes of COD gameplay is not as much an opinion as it is a prejudice.

But yeah, you are right that this forum sometimes is hypocritical, but most of the time we try to get games more accepted by the mainstream.

 

[General_Tragg]

Geoffry and Sons do Battle at High Water

GSBHW's

GSBHWers unite ^__^

 

[squid5580]

To me it is nothing more, you interact with it for pleasure, it's a toy, it just has different pleasures for different people, it's like action man, he's a toy, but you can play anything with him from gardening to screwing barbie, but the bottom line he is a toy.
I'm not using toy negatively, I'm using it objectively. We shouldn't be ashamed to call them toys or even pursue careers in them, do you look down on the people that design dolls?. The beauty of games is that anyone can play despite it's toy status.

The thing separating games from books or film is the interactivity, you PLAY with games, sure different ages like different things to play with [personally I hate that stigma, I enjoy games for all ages] but you are still playing for pleasure, which usually includes fun, and if I ever consider myself too old for fun you all have permission to shoot me in the face.

Snip

Basically what I just said, except for this, you shouldn't need to stand up and defend gaming as something more than it is, I'm not being defeatist and sure I care about the industry, but I don't care what other people think about me and my toys. I still have my lego and watch cartoons, does that make me immature? Probably, do I care? Hell no. Maturity can go hang for all I care, it's boring and depressing.
But if you really need some degree of mature toys, look no further than dildos. I don't see the people using them trying to announce them as something other than toys.

I don't want to be mature either, but there is a difference in being mature and being respected. You say video games are different from movies because they are interactive and you use it to pass the time (to play it for pleasure as you put it). Games are indeed interactive, this is where they differ from other art forms, but that does not mean it is just a toy. Passing time, or doing it for the pleasure is not only done with toys. Don't you listen to music to pass time, for pleasure? Don't you watch paintings to pass the time? You do. If they can do that and have respect, games should have that too.

Also, I don't care what other people think, untill it starts to hurt the industry. Right now it does. There is loads of debating on games, people don't want to give indie developers funding, australia is banning alot of games, and there are kids whose parents wont allow them to play games. This is why I defend gaming, and this is why this forum defends gaming.

And for all your "defending" you miss one very important factor. People have a right to have their opinions. Who are you to tell a parent how to raise their child? Who are you to tell people they have to accept games? Not all games are art.

Oh and funny story about this forum "defending" video games. They will except when it comes to games they themselves don't accept. Yeah you are all ready to defend games as art and whatever until a Zynga game comes up then all the defending goes out the window. Once Zynga gets a mention the forum sounds exactly like the people you are "defending" games against. Funny how that works huh?

Actually I think what Zynga does is really good, showing people an easy portal to the gaming world. But alot of people hate it indeed, that is true. And yes, I do agree that you shouldn't force people to have an opinion. What I want however, is that people see what gaming really is before they don't accept it. If someone plays through portal, a very artsy game in my opinion, and says that he still doesn't think of games as an art, it is fine with me. People have opinions. But saying that games are bad just after seeing 2 minutes of COD gameplay is not as much an opinion as it is a prejudice.

But yeah, you are right that this forum sometimes is hypocritical, but most of the time we try to get games more accepted by the mainstream.

Which we have. Fox does not speak for the mainstream. Or too them. Some 1000 year old senator is not speaking for the mainstream. COD selling a septillion units in the matter of an hour after launch is the mainstream speaking out. The rest is just lazy people trying to get attention and it works because of people like you and sites like this. The Escapist (for an example) posts a link to some jackass saying games cause devil worship and game developers sacrifice virgins to make games. All of a sudden the jackass has a boost in traffic of people bitchin and telling him how wrong he is. Instead of following internet rule #1 Don't feed the troll. Jack Thompson was just some crazy old man yelling at kids to get off his lawn. We made him a freakin celebrity because of simply shrugging our shoulders and playing our games we gave him power by caring about his insane ramblings. Do you really want games to be accepted by the mainstream? Support the games you like, ignore the games you don't and if the government ever decides to shut down all game development by censorship then it is time for a call to arms. And stop supporting the asshats because they are feeding on your anger.

 

[SammiYin]

If video games are to be called toys then every other form of entertainment can also be called toys, this includes reading, movies, music, sport & art

Im fine calling video games a toy if you have no problem calling all your other hobbies toys

Sure you can pass the time with a sorts of things, but it's that very interactivity that makes it a toy, you can't call music, films, books or paintings toys because you have no control over their content.

What about the ppl creating these things, When I play my guitar does music suddenly become a toy?

Or what about fishing, chess or sport? im sure those who run the olypmic games or the supporters and players of your closest football team would agree with you that what they do is play toys.

I understand ppl who call gaming toys have an point to make, but pls just stop using the word it just makes you look stupid

You make some good points, shame about delivery. Well I'm bloody getting out of this hole.
Fine, let's rearrange this slightly. A footballer can either professionally or recreationally play with a ball for pleasure or money [same thing], but we can't deny he's playing a game. The key item in this game is the football, I don't know what your issue is with the word toy, but I'll keep using it because it's relevant to everything I've said before, [saying no to the social stigma of toys being only for children]. So there's no denying that the essence of sport relies on toys, which rules out your fishing, chess and football etc. it's just that they can go to much deeper complexities than dolls.

Now actually performing the music is a lot more difficult for me to challenge. There's no doubt that the music itself isn't a toy or a game, but the instrument itself has all the hallmarks of a toy, you play with it, it amuses you [probably on a deeper level than said dolls, but at it's very basic it's occupying your thoughts and feelings]. Maybe I've just been conditioned to think that all instruments are too 'mature' to consider them toys, in which case I'm practising my preaching and calling you out. A guitar is a teenage+ toy.

Snippety snip

Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying emotional attachment to it or even its depth. We can still have the fantastic support of games we are getting,and I've been extremely moved by a lot of games. I just don't believe we should be getting so caught up on what it should fundamentally be. We can't get new players into the community without being honest with ourselves, I just think it makes us so much more approachable.

It IS a toy...

LA Noire says HI.

Dress it up as maturely as you want, you're playing cops and robbers.

 

[Altanese]

For part of my reply, I'm just going to repost part of a reply I just made in the "Video games- Art or Not?" thread:

"Video games as a whole are not art, and if you're going to count an entire medium for expression as "Art" or "Not art" then please tell me how books can all be art when both "Great Expectations" by Charles Dickens and "Twilight" by Stephanie Mayer are books. For that matter how does one classify music as art when you can listen to Tchaikovsky's "1812 Overture" and Beiber's "Baby"?"

For the rest of my reply, I'm going to point out that gaming as we know it today is still young, though maturing. For a long time films were not considered a serious form of expression and people thought they never would be. Books, when made by printing press and not written by hand, were not art because a machine reprinted it instead of a human. There are many people even today who think no comic or anything animated can be taken seriously.

Renaming 'gaming' would be a pointless gesture and would lead to nothing but elitism amongst people who think that the things they like are "Neo Electronic Interactive Expressionism" and everything else is just a childish "Video Game".

Hm, I'm going to trademark "Neo Electronic Interactive Expressionism".

 

[Kavachi]

To me it is nothing more, you interact with it for pleasure, it's a toy, it just has different pleasures for different people, it's like action man, he's a toy, but you can play anything with him from gardening to screwing barbie, but the bottom line he is a toy.
I'm not using toy negatively, I'm using it objectively. We shouldn't be ashamed to call them toys or even pursue careers in them, do you look down on the people that design dolls?. The beauty of games is that anyone can play despite it's toy status.

The thing separating games from books or film is the interactivity, you PLAY with games, sure different ages like different things to play with [personally I hate that stigma, I enjoy games for all ages] but you are still playing for pleasure, which usually includes fun, and if I ever consider myself too old for fun you all have permission to shoot me in the face.

Snip

Basically what I just said, except for this, you shouldn't need to stand up and defend gaming as something more than it is, I'm not being defeatist and sure I care about the industry, but I don't care what other people think about me and my toys. I still have my lego and watch cartoons, does that make me immature? Probably, do I care? Hell no. Maturity can go hang for all I care, it's boring and depressing.
But if you really need some degree of mature toys, look no further than dildos. I don't see the people using them trying to announce them as something other than toys.

I don't want to be mature either, but there is a difference in being mature and being respected. You say video games are different from movies because they are interactive and you use it to pass the time (to play it for pleasure as you put it). Games are indeed interactive, this is where they differ from other art forms, but that does not mean it is just a toy. Passing time, or doing it for the pleasure is not only done with toys. Don't you listen to music to pass time, for pleasure? Don't you watch paintings to pass the time? You do. If they can do that and have respect, games should have that too.

Also, I don't care what other people think, untill it starts to hurt the industry. Right now it does. There is loads of debating on games, people don't want to give indie developers funding, australia is banning alot of games, and there are kids whose parents wont allow them to play games. This is why I defend gaming, and this is why this forum defends gaming.

And for all your "defending" you miss one very important factor. People have a right to have their opinions. Who are you to tell a parent how to raise their child? Who are you to tell people they have to accept games? Not all games are art.

Oh and funny story about this forum "defending" video games. They will except when it comes to games they themselves don't accept. Yeah you are all ready to defend games as art and whatever until a Zynga game comes up then all the defending goes out the window. Once Zynga gets a mention the forum sounds exactly like the people you are "defending" games against. Funny how that works huh?

Actually I think what Zynga does is really good, showing people an easy portal to the gaming world. But alot of people hate it indeed, that is true. And yes, I do agree that you shouldn't force people to have an opinion. What I want however, is that people see what gaming really is before they don't accept it. If someone plays through portal, a very artsy game in my opinion, and says that he still doesn't think of games as an art, it is fine with me. People have opinions. But saying that games are bad just after seeing 2 minutes of COD gameplay is not as much an opinion as it is a prejudice.

But yeah, you are right that this forum sometimes is hypocritical, but most of the time we try to get games more accepted by the mainstream.

Which we have. Fox does not speak for the mainstream. Or too them. Some 1000 year old senator is not speaking for the mainstream. COD selling a septillion units in the matter of an hour after launch is the mainstream speaking out. The rest is just lazy people trying to get attention and it works because of people like you and sites like this. The Escapist (for an example) posts a link to some jackass saying games cause devil worship and game developers sacrifice virgins to make games. All of a sudden the jackass has a boost in traffic of people bitchin and telling him how wrong he is. Instead of following internet rule #1 Don't feed the troll. Jack Thompson was just some crazy old man yelling at kids to get off his lawn. We made him a freakin celebrity because of simply shrugging our shoulders and playing our games we gave him power by caring about his insane ramblings. Do you really want games to be accepted by the mainstream? Support the games you like, ignore the games you don't and if the government ever decides to shut down all game development by censorship then it is time for a call to arms. And stop supporting the asshats because they are feeding on your anger.

You are right, there is alot of feeding trolls, and tbh I fall victim to trolls myself 2, and I should work on that. Stuff like COD is getting accepted and games officially being art in the USA is also a sign that games are not that hated anymore. It's just that there are still alot of areas and cultures where games still need some time, for example my school in Holland has almost no gamers on it.

But I do agree with you that alot of people are just attention-seeking trolls, but there are also some groups and cultures that are still behind on the US.

 

[Kavachi]

Massive snip

You know, I think I can agree with that. We shouldn't be overly zealous, but we shouldn't be too passive either. The middle way is probably the best way to go, because we don't want to scare people off, but we don't want to give people wrong impressions either (i.e. being nothing more than a toy).

 

[Ciaran Lunt]

we tried that its called "interactive experience"
we have to make the games good enough to change the image not change the name of the image

 

[viranimus]

Well I am in the camp that thinks it does need to be renamed, Not for any sort of credibility factor, but more that it just doesnt represent what they are. Fact is, what we call games encompass more than just gaming. Using the name "games" is sort of like if the medium of television was refereed to as Video reality. Reality implies that what is being shown is "real" which becomes a confusing moniker when you see works of complete fiction. Gaming is sort of in the same boat right now.

Not entirely fond of the word entertainment either really. By applying entertainment you are not only limiting the scope of what this medium is, your ignoring (at least a small) part of what makes up the medium. My vote is still for Interactive Video entertainment and Simulation. Which with the way we like to apply initial-isms and acronyms You shorten it by calling it IVES (pronounced Eye Vees). It Mimics the sound of TV, Movie, etc, better encompasses what they are and what they can be, and applies modern aesthetic of using initialisms like dvd, mp3, etc