I think i just conclusively proved fate or a soul exists - just for fun discussion

[godfist88]

Dude just take a chill pill and enjoy life.

what he said.

 

[viking97]

OP, simple question:

At the time I purchased Oblivion, I had long since hated RPG's. I had, for the longest time, utterly dislike them. So why did I purchase it? It wasn't an impulse buy. It was a decision I'd since thought about and decided on. If my decisions worked by predetermined particles hitting each other, then why did I do something random and completely out of character?



Also explain to me why I all of a sudden decided to watch anime. Nothing much really pushed me in that direction, and I disliked it before, so how was something so seemingly random actually predetermined by brainless random particles?



Random and crazy shit happens. You have choices, you always have. You've proved nothing. Calm down.

Erm ok? What im saying is seemingly random things will happen. But they arnt random really. Lets say a meteor is about to hit earth. People would say "OH NO WHAT A RANDOM TERRIBLE THING!" But it isnt. Its been heading toward us for ages and was always gonna hit us, its just been on its way. Why calm down... im just talking about random thoughts from being bored one day... weird...

I know... but you're saying that we don't actually have any choices, that everything is predetermined. How, exactly? You basically just say that since Earth as we know it was just a bunch of particles being in the right place at the right time - randomly, by the way, if we pretend that the possibility of a creator has been discounted - then everything is predetermined.

Excuse my unscientific young mind, but that doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any at all. If what you're saying is true, then all of us would follow one certain pattern, wouldn't we? We wouldn't be able to make a choice or try out new things, we would simply follow a path that was laid out before by a bunch of particles that have spent eternity smacking into each other. Which can't be true because we spend our entire lives making choices, in the broadest sense anyway. We can, on impulse, decide to run outside naked - those are thoughts, not predetermination. That makes no sense, none at all, it just sounds like a crackpot theory to me. Run it by someone who knows more about this stuff, and he'll probably explain it to you in better terms.

he's saying that if u ran the big bang exzactly the same it happened (if it did happen anyway) then everything would happen exactly the same way. which is true.

and we don't have choice, we have the illusion of choice. which is more or less the same thing.

 

[quhouv vhqwiufv qwiu]

The amount of pseudoscience in this thread is nauseating.

 

[Zechnophobe]

The amount of pseudoscience in this thread is nauseating.

Dunno what you are talking about. Quantum = magic... right?

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

I think the problem that you have with your theory is that you're saying that we're all following a simple reactions of particles colliding. That isn't true. The brain isn't clockwork, it doesn't follow a set program. Our brain can change and we can choose how we think. Which means that we aren't all playing out some overly elaborate reaction that the universe is having. Remember, there are things capable of changing the direction of an object by choice, so you couldn't predict everything that's ever going to happen (if you had a powerful enough computing system).

 

[thethingthatlurks]

If i knew the location and speed of every partical when the big bang started i could put them all into a super computer, apply physics, and let it go. And perfectly simulate the universe as we know it, from beggining to end.

Except you can't. Refer to the uncertainty principle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
'it is impossible to determine simultaneously both the position and the momentum of an electron or any other particle with any great degree of accuracy or certainty'

You can know where a particle is, but you can't know how fast it is moving.
You can know how fast a particle is moving, but you can't tell where it is.

QED

The main thing I don't understand about the uncertainty principle is this: Sure, you can not know the exact speed and position of a particle; but that shouldn't need to mean that the particle in question does not actually have an exact location and speed at any given moment. The way I see it right now, the particle would still have to move in accordance to its position and speed, but we would never be able to predict its movements since we can't know both speed and position.

In short: I don't quite see how the uncertainty principle disproves a predetermined fate.

I don't think there are any physicists around here, so I'll explain it: yes, you are measuring both speed and position of a particle simultaneously, and that is not the problem. The issue arises from the non-commutativity of the position and momentum operators (quick refresher, commutativity: a*b=b*a, just not in quantum mechanics). This then means you can only establish the wavefunction, that is the little function that tells you everything you need to know about the particle for either momentum or position. It's really difficult to put into words, but it is fundamentally impossible to exactly determine any further information from that data that is not exclusive to either position or momentum. Let me give you a real life example: you are reading this on a computer, which were designed with much input from quantum theory. Most specifically from scattering theory. This states that a particle with x energy has a nonzero probability of passing through a barrier of >x energy, which enables the construction of semiconducters. An explanation for this is the uncertainty principle, as the kinetic energy (analogous to momentum) is known, so the position is not.

tl;dr: no, uncertainty is absolute. It cannot be circumvented, and it absolutely disproves predetermination on the quantum scale.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

I have one question for you, OP, before I answer this (although everyone else has marvelously so far).

..Have you been smoking Pot or Marijuana recently?

 

[Socks and Shoes]

I'm a man of science and what is this?

 

[Liudeius]

The electrical impulses of your brain are not counted in the prediction of movement of atoms. They are generated by your cells. Anyway, the brain is a mostly closed system (other than nutrients) so outside movement wouldn't affect it any more than rain hitting a house.

Obviously there is a "human" element, though I would say it's more of a life element than a human element in particular, and one should not call it a soul as soul has religious connections.

 

[no space]

I think this comic from Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal actually explains this problem quite eloquently.

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2211#comic

In the end, it's just another philosophical quandary that will likely never be solved adequately enough to sate those on the opposite side of the issue. Everyone is always going to be deconstructing everyone else's theories to show that theirs have a different set of flaws for the next philosopher to point out.

 

[funguy2121]

I was just thinking about fate today and i think i have, unless the entity some call a "soul" or the "spark of life" exists, proven that all our actions are predetermined. Please read my points. And please prove me wrong. I feel kinda crap knowing all my actions are predetermined.

From the second the (1)universe was born, all particals in existance were created and given a speed, a direction and a mass. (2)Now we can predict what two particals will do when they collide. Perfectly, using the laws of physics. Meaning from the second the universe was created every particals movement and collisions, and such ALL subsquent collisions are all 100% predicatable, assuming you had the computing power or brainpower to do this.

In your brain when you make a decisions, everything in your brain functions, each individual cell, because of collisions and electrical impulses. All of these are predictable. (3)If i knew the location and speed of every single atom in your brain, i could predict everything you could think and do. Forever. If i knew the location and speed of every partical when the big bang started i could put them all into a super computer, apply physics, and let it go. And perfectly simulate the universe as we know it, from beggining to end.

(4)Unless people have a soul or an essence or some thing that makes us do truly random things, that can supernaturely divert particals in our brain to do multiple possible actions, everything we do is set in stone. From the second the big bang started. Unless something stops these particals from taking their predetermined paths from the second the big bang gave them some energy, everything in the entire universe can be predicted with (5)100% accuracy in theory. Nothing is really random. Its a bit depressing to be honest.

Discussion: After reading this do you believe in fate? Im not sure i do. I think ive just proved we have a soul. Either that or fate. Do you believe in free will because of some divine force. As an athiest this makes my head hurt. I think im gonna go do something fun and never think about it again. Im already going to anyway. Its predicted.

(6)EDIT: People seem obsessed with the fact this tiny 10 min thought has somehow dominated my life. It has not. I am calm. This is a tiny musing. Stop telling me to calm down. You just come away looking really really weird... I dont realy mind either way. Its like death being inevitable. I dont really think about it.

EDIT: Ive also been proven wrong a few times by the duel slat test AND the uncertainty theory. Dont bother posting them. I admit i got it wrong. Fun thought though.

I'm going to break down my responses with numbers. Anyone feel free to correct me if I slip up anywhere, as where I am any sort of -ologist the prefix "armchair" must be applied.

(1) How do we know this? Only wild theories and mysticism cover it. Even the Big Bang isn't held up as gospel.
(2) Can we ever predict all possible outcomes, even if we reached a supposed zenith of science?
(3) With the requisite brainpower and knowledge and scientific ability, you might be able to predict anything I could do at one moment, but you wouldn't be able to predict my entire path through this world. Simply because you could look at all possible internal options (theoretically), you still could not look at all possible external options. This would require omniscience and omnipresence, which no one has.
(4) How about a subconscious? How about a desire to be unpredictable? A fascination with opposites, with irony? If these presuppositions were true than there would be no successful comedians.
(5) The universe is averse to absolutes.
(6) Funny how something as well thought out as this will evoke an escapist response like "chill out," but people will rant away and argue to death the merits of pikachu vs. Jiggly Puff.

 

[Sam Warrior]

Dude two words: quantum physics. When you get that small you cant know enough about a particle to predict its interactions, seeing as I havent done quantum physics for nearly two years now thats all the useful contribution your gonna get out of me.

 

[Daverson]

I always thought of the "soul" as being the current in the nervous system (maybe that's not the right term - I know the nervous system is sort of like an electrical circuit, but I'm not a biologist, so, go figure =p ...)

It's a simplification, but I like it =)

(To quote a very wise man "simplicity - because complexity sucks")

 

[Kurokami]

I was just thinking about fate today and i think i have, unless the entity some call a "soul" or the "spark of life" exists, proven that all our actions are predetermined. Please read my points. And please prove me wrong. I feel kinda crap knowing all my actions are predetermined.

From the second the universe was born, all particals in existance were created and given a speed, a direction and a mass. Now we can predict what two particals will do when they collide. Perfectly, using the laws of physics. Meaning from the second the universe was created every particals movement and collisions, and such ALL subsquent collisions are all 100% predicatable, assuming you had the computing power or brainpower to do this.

In your brain when you make a decisions, everything in your brain functions, each individual cell, because of collisions and electrical impulses. All of these are predictable. If i knew the location and speed of every single atom in your brain, i could predict everything you could think and do. Forever. If i knew the location and speed of every partical when the big bang started i could put them all into a super computer, apply physics, and let it go. And perfectly simulate the universe as we know it, from beggining to end.

Unless people have a soul or an essence or some thing that makes us do truly random things, that can supernaturely divert particals in our brain to do multiple possible actions, everything we do is set in stone. From the second the big bang started. Unless something stops these particals from taking their predetermined paths from the second the big bang gave them some energy, everything in the entire universe can be predicted with 100% accuracy in theory. Nothing is really random. Its a bit depressing to be honest.

Discussion: After reading this do you believe in fate? Im not sure i do. I think ive just proved we have a soul. Either that or fate. Do you believe in free will because of some divine force. As an athiest this makes my head hurt. I think im gonna go do something fun and never think about it again. Im already going to anyway. Its predicted.

EDIT: People seem obsessed with the fact this tiny 10 min thought has somehow dominated my life. It has not. I am calm. This is a tiny musing. Stop telling me to calm down. You just come away looking really really weird... I dont realy mind either way. Its like death being inevitable. I dont really think about it.

EDIT: Ive also been proven wrong a few times by the duel slat test AND the uncertainty theory. Dont bother posting them. I admit i got it wrong. Fun thought though.

Your theory is based on the idea that there's a finite amount of things to understand in the universe, there aren't and they can effect each other, so while in theory everything could be predicted, in theory it cannot because not everything in the world can be observed, much less by us, so limited.

Also, it only takes one item in your universe with a 'random' function to rule the whole thing out, which doesn't immediately label it as a soul, nor a higher power.

That's just my 5c worth.

 

[Sam Warrior]

The electrical impulses of your brain are not counted in the prediction of movement of atoms. They are generated by your cells. Anyway, the brain is a mostly closed system (other than nutrients) so outside movement wouldn't affect it any more than rain hitting a house.

Obviously there is a "human" element, though I would say it's more of a life element than a human element in particular, and one should not call it a soul as soul has religious connections.

Cells generate electrical current by... moving atoms. Mostly by moving Na ions over a membrane.

 

[yanipheonu]

Well I like to follow the old saying that "All I know is I know nothing". Being a supernatural thing, I don't really have any proof one way or another about whether the soul exists. It's the tricky part of it.

I like to believe souls exist, but I can't say one way or the other, all I can do is create a best guess, a belief. It's way things are with most supernatural things really.

 

[Spitfire]

You can't quantify a thought like that. When we're faced with a choice, we're more inclined towards choosing one thing or the other based on a number of factors, which can be personal or situational. There's a decision making process taking place, and therefore, there's a level of unpredictability.

 

[kingpocky]

How does it make a difference to free will if things are deterministic or not? Even if the actions of some subatomic particles cannot be predicted at all, how is that relevant to the choices made by humans being any more or less meaningful? Even if there is some random chance and uncertainty, it's no different than adding a coin flip that sometimes influences the action of a clockwork system. Just because some things randomly occur one way or another doesn't mean that "choice" exists any more than it does in a universe where everything is deterministic.

Really, the concept of "free will" seems so poorly defined as to be meaningless.