I think I just noticed why I and maybe others don't like JRPGs...

[Hectix777]

There's no choice. I may have not played as many JRPGs to be called a Kotaku but I've played enough to notice this sort of thing. The thing I admire, love, and appreciate about games like Dragon Age: Origins and Neverwinter Nights 2(just started playing it, I think my CPU needs an upgrade though, plz pm for hlp) is that I have the freedom to choose who I want to be as a hero. I can be an evil psychopath that just likes to chop stuff up or the gleaming example of heroism and justice. In a JRPG, like Yahtzee said, your just stuck inside the head pulling at nerves. Just so you know I came upon this during my..."meditation time on the white throne" if you catch my meaning, not the TWEWY review. Listen I don't know if it's me or if their are people that like that, but it's kind of a huge,"wth," and FU to the player. I like video games because they make the epics my grandpa used to read me (like Beowulf) a near reality, it's free from the bonds of reality. But it's not truly free since you have to travel down the set path. I know that WRPGs may have separate start points and they reach the same ending, but at least I can do as I please in between. I wonder if this is a part of Eastern game design law vs. Western game design law but it's kind of annoying. If I am wrong, please show me a JRPG where I have a series of decisions to make. Where every act I do and don't do shape the world or at least my own story. What do you guys think or do you know any JRPGs with choice or at least have an explanation as to why they don't or how they can fix this?



(I haven't played any of the Persona titles so I think they might have at least on or two story driven choices and Cave Story has one or two lying around.)

 

[Kahunaburger]

Well, Devil Survivor has a greater degree of choice than basically any JRPG or WRPG I've played. Essentially, not only do you have to make a wide range of consequence-heavy choices (and the endgame is completely different based on what choices you made) basically any significant action you take is a choice since the world's ending in a week and you're on a clock. Talking to people, investigating stuff, plot-related fights, and so on all take up time. It's a very elegant and effective choice system, IMO.

 

[hudsonzero]

actually i think persona is like a life simulator with turn-based combat, I have never played one of them mind so i'm probably wrong.
EDIT:1 turns out i was wrong, but i am still intresting in playing persona 4 TO GRANGER GAMES!!

 

[Austin Howe]

Well it mostly has to do with the fact that, frankly, JRPG writers see their role as more important than writers of WRPGs. In truth, a WRPG writer's job is really just to give you a well-developed setting with interesting people (they usually fail) and then you take it from there in terms of how this world is going to change because of your actions. JRPG writers have a very specific message they want to convey and very specific themes they want to discuss, thus, having everything set. And in truth, the differentiations come at totally different points. A Japanese designer probably looks at Fallout and says "Wtf is going on with the combat?" because combat is the thing given the least love in WRPGs and which is often treated as most important in terms of game design to Japanese developers. Music is a much more "active" part of the game world in a JRPG, it's much more prominent and forceful than in a WRPG. And of course, we have to come to the fact that JRPG aren't really RPGs to begin with, they should probably be given their own genre with a different name, though most of these attempts, sadly, are driven by cynical WRPG fans who want to name the genre something insulting like "Storyfight".

 

[Austin Howe]

actually i think persona is like a life simulator with turn-based combat, I have never played one of them mind so i'm probably wrong.

Mind you the dating sim elements are pretty new to the series (in relative terms).

 

[ZiggyE]

Linearity =/= bad.

Watch the latest Jimquisition.

 

[MassiveGeek]

Well, Devil Survivor has a greater degree of choice than basically any JRPG or WRPG I've played. Essentially, not only do you have to make a wide range of consequence-heavy choices (and the endgame is completely different based on what choices you made) basically any significant action you take is a choice since the world's ending in a week and you're on a clock. Talking to people, investigating stuff, plot-related fights, and so on all take up time. It's a very elegant and effective choice system, IMO.

I don't doubt there are JRPGs that have the same elements as western RPGs, but I must agree with the OP that a LOT of them are very... customized. The characters, even the main one's, are usually customized to the point that it doesn't feel as engaging, they're too much their own person to be that much fun to play(like Final Fantasy). But that's just my experience.

The thing that bothers me the most about JRPGs are just the characters. Men look like chicks and chicks look 12 years old. So do the men, mostly, for that matter... Oh well.

 

[madwarper]

The thing I admire, love, and appreciate about games like Dragon Age: Origins and Neverwinter Nights 2(just started playing it, I think my CPU needs an upgrade though, plz pm for hlp) is that I have the freedom to choose who I want to be as a hero. I can be an evil psychopath that just likes to chop stuff up or the gleaming example of heroism and justice.

I think this appearance of choice is an illusion.
You're not choosing what you would do, but choosing from a list of actions the developers felt like programing.

IMHO, this isn't a Easter/Western RPG comparison, it's just that tf you want to make your own independent choices, table top gaming is the only real option that's currently available.

If I am wrong, please show me a JRPG where I have a series of decisions to make. Where every act I do and don't do shape the world or at least my own story.

Just about any game with multiple endings; Tales of Symphonia, Chrono Trigger and Etrian Odyssey 3 spring to mind.

What do you guys think or do you know any JRPGs with choice or at least have an explanation as to why they don't or how they can fix this?

I don't mind games that have 100% linear, never changing, stories.

However, as I said, if you want to have a complex story where you have true freedom of choice, you won't achieve that experience playing a computer game. Rather, you'll need a human (DM) who can adjust the story on the fly depending on your actions.

 

[Aeonknight]

Linearity is the prefered method for delivering a better overall story, seeing as how you're forced to go from plot point A to plot point B and can't possibly miss it. I'm not saying games like Dragon Age or Mass Effect can't have a good story because they're open ended, but let's face it. You didn't think up an FF6 type story in your head while playing them for your character to act out.

 

[conflictofinterests]

Well, your complaint about JRPGs is best summed up as the difference in the "R" part of RPG in Western and Japanese games (though there is plenty of cross over in this definition, so don't take it as gospel) Some games say: Pick a role, experience our world. Other games say: Here is a role, experience life in it. Both philosophies have their limits. The former has to be incredibly impersonal in order to account for all the variation in protagonists. The latter, as you've noted, restricts player freedom in order to give a more personalized experience.

 

[boag]

Since most JRPGs focuse heavily on a linear story, If the story and characters arent appealing they will make me puke and shut off the game.

lately ive been drawn more to tongue in cheek games like the Disgaea series than Super Serious Angsty boo hooo hoo stories, like what most of the FF games have been since X, frankly I found X-2 more fun because it was a cheesy fan service romp that knew it was a fanservice romp.

 

[lord.jeff]

Not better different, I like the story focus and visual styles of Japanese RPGs, and I like the freedom to move in Western RPGs. Both have a benefit to there styles of play.

 

[Richardplex]

I prefer WRPGs to JRPGS because of the choice. I don't dislike JRPGs for it, they get grouped with all the other genres from lack of choice. It's not a bad thing not to have just because it's (in my opinion) a good thing to have, depending on the story. Linearity =/= bad. I just don't like Turn based combat, so I don't like most JRPGs. I equally dislike western TBC games, not because they're inherantly bad, they're just not my cup of tea.

Well, your complaint about JRPGs is best summed up as the difference in the "R" part of RPG in Western and Japanese games (though there is plenty of cross over in this definition, so don't take it as gospel) Some games say: Pick a role, experience our world. Other games say: Here is a role, experience life in it. Both philosophies have their limits. The former has to be incredibly impersonal in order to account for all the variation in protagonists. The latter, as you've noted, restricts player freedom in order to give a more personalized experience.

Mostly entirely true, apart from the impersonal part. For the most part, I'd agree, but some games can make the character... personal. Bioware games do this very well, in particular Mass Effect. Being given a choice of backstories and psychologies, quests that relate to that, speech options reflecting your character, people mentioning and adapting to your story. Commander Shepard can be a very personal character if you want her/him to be. But, for the most part, I'd fully agree with your post.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Linearity is the prefered method for delivering a better overall story, seeing as how you're forced to go from plot point A to plot point B and can't possibly miss it. I'm not saying games like Dragon Age or Mass Effect can't have a good story because they're open ended, but let's face it. You didn't think up an FF6 type story in your head while playing them for your character to act out.

I think the issue with completely linear narratives in games is that there's nothing about them that lends itself particularly well to being a game. It would be like reading a play in book form - it can be enjoyable that way, but it would be much better performed as an actual play.

 

[NotSoNimble]

Yeah, I hate Pac Man for that same reason. Lack of choice.



JRPG games have been around forever, many people love them. It's okay if you don't like them. Some people like more linear stories.

 

[Hectix777]

The thing I admire, love, and appreciate about games like Dragon Age: Origins and Neverwinter Nights 2(just started playing it, I think my CPU needs an upgrade though, plz pm for hlp) is that I have the freedom to choose who I want to be as a hero. I can be an evil psychopath that just likes to chop stuff up or the gleaming example of heroism and justice.

I think this appearance of choice is an illusion.
You're not choosing what you would do, but choosing from a list of actions the developers felt like programing.

IMHO, this isn't a Easter/Western RPG comparison, it's just that tf you want to make your own independent choices, table top gaming is the only real option that's currently available.

If I am wrong, please show me a JRPG where I have a series of decisions to make. Where every act I do and don't do shape the world or at least my own story.

Just about any game with multiple endings; Tales of Symphonia, Chrono Trigger and Etrian Odyssey 3 spring to mind.

What do you guys think or do you know any JRPGs with choice or at least have an explanation as to why they don't or how they can fix this?

I don't mind games that have 100% linear, never changing, stories.

However, as I said, if you want to have a complex story where you have true freedom of choice, you won't achieve that experience playing a computer game. Rather, you'll need a human (DM) who can adjust the story on the fly depending on your actions.

Well even if it's a pre-programmed choice I have the option to be good or bad. In Kingdom Hearts 2 I can't play Sora the way I would like him to be, a guy who gets stuff done and keeps on rollin'. There's no freedom of development for my character. I'm not saying I appreciate slate PCs, God no, I'm just saying I appreciate that I can make the world see me how I want to be seen. If your Cloud in FFVII your always a whiny emo you can never be a badass, your stuck with the persona and actions of a whiny emo even after the game ends and continues on to the next movie. Multiple endings aren't enough from me, that just means some choice I don't recall earlier in the game equals out to me getting a separate end cutscene. To go outside of RPG standards, InFamous 2 is a good example of what I want in a karma filled world or RPGs in general. My actions shaped the world, my friends, my enemies, my powers, my end game. I remembered the choices I had to make to get where I was, to who I was. You start off as Cole and you end up as either the Patron Saint of New Marais or an evil overlord (i never played the evil ending). People saw what I was doing and saw that I was their hero, their protector, I chose to be that guy. In a JRPG your stuck in the role laid out for you, and your probably gonna hate it because your either: A) a boy with big dreams and a big destiny B)a cocky fighter C)an emo D)a rebel E)an emotionless slate or F)the boy who has something to prove. You aren't even allowed to choose what set character trope for the main character. I want my choices to matter, which Guild Wars 2 is doing. I can choose to save a village near by, go to it or keep on walking, if I save it I get discounts and bonus items if I leave it for dead it gets siege towers that will blow me up.

 

[Ranorak]

WRPG's?
Choice?
You mean those meaningless
1:[Sure, you're welcome!]
2:[Sure, that'll be 200 Gold]
3:[Piss off! *punch* *Moustache Twirl*]

Nah, in all seriousness, I do love me some WRPG's but all that freedom usually comes at a cost.
The main story line is often not all that good. Not to mention, 99% of the time it makes no sense to even do it as a evil character.

Take NWN2 for example, I loved that game, but the choice system is just there to make you think you change a lot. Play the game a second time and pick the opposite choice, and you'll end up with pretty much the same game. Sure, some people will dislike you, and the ending is changed, but most is the same.
In fact, I did always wonder one thing.

Spoiler

When blamed for the mass murder of that one town, why couldn't I point out I was a paladin, and just show them I still had my powers, thus proving I did not commit any of those acts. THAT would have been a awesome choice.

As for JRPG's, No, they don't offer that much choice in good/evil. But that comes with a plus, most of the time the characters don't come off as cardboard cut outs.
And the NPC's react properly to you.

(I'm making up the following example)
If a JRPG character just did something bad, someone might point it out to you, and might even point out that your murder left out 2 orphans. while in a WRPG you might murder a NPC, hell, you might even get caught "STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM!" but in the end you just got some defame points/Dark Side/Evil Points, but the local bookshop keeper still wants you to get her cat.

Because you have so many options in WRPG's the other NPC's can often come off as distant or even oblivious of you. After all, with so many options out there, they should have a response that covers most of them. But JRPG's are scripted, so you might get the same response every play through, but most of the time, it's a more fitting, personal response to the current situation.

...not counting guards, all they do is welcome you to Corneria, over and over again.

 

[veloper]

The biggest image problem of the genre is the FF series being put forward as the prime example.

 

[Mxrz]

I liked JRPGs for different reasons then I like WRPGs.

The reason I started disliking most JRPGs over the years (Outside of FF12, 13, SO:i. Suck it haters.) was that suddenly all the characters started becoming weirdly dressed teens with more emotional problems than an entire psyche ward. Throw in gameplay that usually doesn't have much going for it, and I just gave up.

And FF has some pretty bad characters, too. But Square makes up for it with some incredibly interesting worlds (and graphics!) and bringing something different to the combat each game. So I don't mind playing one every couple of years. I enjoyed the last Star Ocean for the same reasons. Terrible characters & plot, but fun battle systems and the Space setting more than made up for it.

Also JRPG "Fans" are some of the most over sensitive ninnies on the internet these days. A lot of them simply cannot accept any kind of criticism that isn't "jrpgs need to be more like FF7!!!! More teens! More problems! Angst = character development!!!" and so on. *shudder*