I think I just noticed why I and maybe others don't like JRPGs...

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Kahunaburger

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veloper said:
The biggest image problem of the genre is the FF series being put forward as the prime example.
This. When 90% of people say "JRPG," what they actually mean is "Final Fantasy Game." It's kind of silly when they try to cross-apply stuff like that to any RPG made in Japan. Especially when you factor in stuff like Atlus games, which usually have as much or more choice than your average WRPG.
 

deathninja

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Boiled down I feel that JRPGs are basically WRPGs with a DM. There's a lot more concrete narrative, and you work through it.
 

Iwata

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hudsonzero said:
actually i think persona is like a life simulator with turn-based combat, I have never played one of them mind so i'm probably wrong.
You control aspects of your social life. Your character's personality is defined by the game itself.
 

madwarper

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Hectix777 said:
Well even if it's a pre-programmed choice I have the option to be good or bad.
But, imho, merely choosing either 'good/bad' (or goody-two-shoes/douche-bag) doesn't really offer much personal character development.

Seeing as though you can't be the guy who does evil, but only for the greater good.
Or, the guy who does good now, only because it fits into his long term plans for global domination.
I'm just saying I appreciate that I can make the world see me how I want to be seen.
And, I'm saying that doesn't happen.

Think of how many threads we have about people creating back stories their Oblivion/Skyrim characters as to why they were in prison/about to be executed, the game will never recognize your motivations.
Multiple endings aren't enough from me, that just means some choice I don't recall earlier in the game equals out to me getting a separate end cutscene.
Multiple endings are just he most obvious presence of choices.

In ToS, based on your choices a member of your party is either a traitor whom you kill or a double agent who saves you.
In EO3, based on your choices changes what class you unlock and whether you help one city destroy another or save them both.
I want my choices to matter,
But, they aren't your choices.

If I'm playing a game that's about choices, I want to be able to approach a scenario from my own angle, not just the good/neutral/douche options that exist in WRPGs.
 

Mundus33

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The reason that light rpgs and pc rpgs are different is because pc rpgs are based off of wizardry and the like while light rpgs are based off the original Dragon Quest.

In wizardry there was no story really. You made a group of adventurers and fought your way to the bottom of a dungeon. This was of course based off of D&D which is why you made your characters instead of had preset characters.

In Dragon Quest you actually played a story and it was Yuji Horii's ambition to make a more accessible game than wizardry and the other pc rpgs of that time which were hella hard. Which is why they are called light rpgs in japan (aka jrpgs in the west).

I pulled most of this information from jfreedmans youtube video on the history of jrpgs which is very informative.

Also on the note of choices you mean the multiple choice personality quizzes they put in rpgs today you could get the same effect by taking any personality quiz on the internet if you'd like :p

part 1
http://www.youtube.com/user/jfreedan#p/c/5BBA76C2195E2A99/7/LDTjJTfJgwM
part 2 (this one has the most relevant information for this topic)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jfreedan#p/c/5BBA76C2195E2A99/7/LDTjJTfJgwM
 

Truniron

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Not liking JRPG's is the same as not liking FPS-games. Someone likes it, someone don't. Personal oppinions,
I say.
 

remnant_phoenix

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First off, the term "role-playing game" is a term that is unclear at best, especially as it relates to video games.

The term originated with tabletop role-playing games like Dungeons and Dragons, where one player acts as a gamemaster (creating the setting and taking on the role of any and all non-player characters in the setting) and everyone else assumes the role of a character in the world.

The gamemaster sets the stage, the players react and make choices, then the gamemaster resets the stage based on choices made.

Compared to this dynamic, ALL role-playing video games are going to be limited in terms of freedom because no video game can create a world as free-form and adaptive as a gamemaster's imagination and creativity. From that perspective, it's just a question of how much or how little player freedom is limited in terms of acting outside the expected plot or making choices that affect the plot.

I'm of the opinion that the video game genres are poorly defined and we need to revamp the way we categorize video games, but that's another discussion for another time.

To me, a role-playing game is any game in which the main focus of the game is that the player assumes some sort of role in an unfolding story.

In the "typical" JRPG, that role may be extremely limited to the roles of guide and battle commander while progressing through set-in-stone story and characterization, such as we see in most JRPGs. Examples: Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy XIII, Xenosaga.

In the "typical" WRPG, that role may be very open to where the character is of your design, has only enough backstory of his own to fit him/her into the setting, and has no personality of his/her own, only what you apply to him/her. The story is non-linear and you can also make decisions that may have a profound effect on the way that the story unfolds. Examples: Elder Scrolls, Dragon Age: Origins

I try not see things as so black/white. I don't see it as "This is/isn't a role-playing game" or "This is a WRPG/JRPG." To me, it's a series of spectrums. There's a story spectrum between player freedom and set scenarios, and there's a character spectrum between customized characters and defined characters.

WRPGs tend to favor player freedom and customized characters while JRPGs tend to favor set scenarios and defined characters. However, there is a middle ground with lots of exceptions.

Consider the JRPG Chrono Trigger. Yes, the story is more or less set and you don't get to customize your avatar, but the main protagonist Crono has no distinct personality whatsoever. It is easy to be immersed and feel that you ARE Crono, that Crono is just an in-game proxy for yourself, and as the hero in this world, YOU are driving the story forward. Regardless, it definitely feels more like "role-playing" in the tabletop sense when compared to say, Tidus from Final Fantasy X.

Consider the JRPG Final Fantasy VI. Again, the story is mostly set and all the characters are distinct fictional personalities, but the entire second half of the game is sandbox-style, with a dozen-plus scenarios that you can tackle in any order you want. You can choose where to go, what to do, and when you want to storm the final boss's keep.

Consider the WRPG Fable. You don't get to the design the character (though you can greatly alter his appearance throughout the game) and the over-arching story scenario is even more set than the two JRPGs listed above. You just have the choice of completing certain quests in "impossibly virtuous paragon of humanity" kind of way, or a "ridiculous cartoony super-villain" kind of way.

Even Final Fantasy VII, the game that started the push for JRPGs toward the place that they are today, allowed some input on Cloud's personality. You can decide which character, if any, he has a romantic interest in and many dialogue options allow you decide whether he is a generally friendly snarky guy or a straight-up snarky jerk. You also have control over choices he makes that have minor story effects. Does he find and recruit Yuffie or Vincent or are they never part of the story at all?

I understand that all these games I named are older, and I concede that JRPGs/WRPGs have tended to move toward their respective extremes, but there are still exceptions today.

In the (JRPG) Persona 4, there are extensive dialogue options for you to define your main character's personality as he relates to his schoolmates.

In the (WRPG) Mass Effect, you do have some degree of ability to define Shepherd's personality, but he/she will ultimately end up along certain tropes of "paragon" or "renegade" rather than being blank slate personality for you to fill in like the Warden from Dragon Age: Origins.

Yes, I know that this is damn long post, but I have a lot to say on the subject, so, there I said it.
 

Kahunaburger

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madwarper said:
I want my choices to matter,
But, they aren't your choices.

If I'm playing a game that's about choices, I want to be able to approach a scenario from my own angle, not just the good/neutral/douche options that exist in WRPGs. Bioware
WRPGs like Planecape: Torment, Witcher/Witcher 2, Fallout (the real ones, not FO3), and so on absolutely offer choice beyond good/netural/dick. So do many JRPGs - each genre has good examples of branching storyline.
 

Inkidu

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Hectix777 said:
There's no choice. I may have not played as many JRPGs to be called a Kotaku but I've played enough to notice this sort of thing. The thing I admire, love, and appreciate about games like Dragon Age: Origins and Neverwinter Nights 2(just started playing it, I think my CPU needs an upgrade though, plz pm for hlp) is that I have the freedom to choose who I want to be as a hero. I can be an evil psychopath that just likes to chop stuff up or the gleaming example of heroism and justice. In a JRPG, like Yahtzee said, your just stuck inside the head pulling at nerves. Just so you know I came upon this during my..."meditation time on the white throne" if you catch my meaning, not the TWEWY review. Listen I don't know if it's me or if their are people that like that, but it's kind of a huge,"wth," and FU to the player. I like video games because they make the epics my grandpa used to read me (like Beowulf) a near reality, it's free from the bonds of reality. But it's not truly free since you have to travel down the set path. I know that WRPGs may have separate start points and they reach the same ending, but at least I can do as I please in between. I wonder if this is a part of Eastern game design law vs. Western game design law but it's kind of annoying. If I am wrong, please show me a JRPG where I have a series of decisions to make. Where every act I do and don't do shape the world or at least my own story. What do you guys think or do you know any JRPGs with choice or at least have an explanation as to why they don't or how they can fix this?



(I haven't played any of the Persona titles so I think they might have at least on or two story driven choices and Cave Story has one or two lying around.)
Since the term RPG is so nebulous and self-serving by today's standards I have taken the liberty (at least upon myself) to devise a way to categorize them.

The only feasible way I could fairly rank an RPG--for I have enjoyed both Final Fantasy and The Elder Scrolls, as well as several others--was to do it along the lines at which a player is able to affect any sense of change in the game.

JRPGs typically rank the lowest. Mostly it's numbers going up (most cases not even down) and maybe a cosmetic weapon change (rarely even clothing)

To give a kind of comparison Diablo II also ranks abysmally low on the scale.

While games like Oblivion, Mass Effect, Fallout, Fallout NV, etc. rank middle to middle high on it. I've never played a game that truly ranked high on it (I've heard of them, but never played) however at that end the scale kind of breaks down because you would have to eschew a narrative structure almost entirely. The closest I've ever played to a high mark is actually Alpha Protocol.

It's still a work in progress. Right now the criteria are kind of wordy I need to boil it down more.
 

remnant_phoenix

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Inkidu said:
Since the term RPG is so nebulous and self-serving by today's standards I have taken the liberty (at least upon myself) to devise a way to categorize them.

...

It's still a work in progress. Right now the criteria are kind of wordy I need to boil it down more.
Need any help? See my above post (#30) on the way I like to categorize RPGs. I'd love to contribute to your genre-redefining, especially in the "RPG" genre, which is, like you said, "nebulous and self-serving."
 

LiberalSquirrel

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Oh for goodness sake... I already wrote one essay on this topic today, and I'm not typing out another. I'll paraphrase the argument I used earlier:

The divide between WRPGs and JRPGs is nowhere near as big as you may think. The stereotypical complaints many gamers have of JRPGs are, in a lot of cases, outdated, or simply were never really all that applicable in the first place.

Regarding linearity and choice: the problem here is the Western gamers have built up the WRPG genre to be something it isn't. If you listen to any WRPG fan, apparantly every WRPG out on the market is a never-ending fountain of moral choices and customisation, and such has it been for as long as anyone can remember. The truth is that there are about six recent succesful WRPG properties that really put an emphasis on choice: Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Fallout, The Elder Scrolls, The Witcher, and Deus Ex (though HR is yet to be released). Seven if you want to (charitably) include Fable. Seven games do not constitute a genre. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of other WRPGs out there which don't incorporate freedom of choice. Sure, WRPGs tend across the board to allow for a great degree of character customization, but the kind of non-linear choices we like to boast about in the West are actually reserved to only a few games.

And on the other side of the debate, there are non-linear JRPGs, and have been for years. Despite Mass Effect's recent success, Chrono Trigger is and probably always will be the posterchild for RPGs that allow choices and multiple endings, and it's a Japanese game. Heck, if you take non-linearity to include allowing you to explore the world and customize your characters, then even the bulk of the Final Fantasy series is non-linear. Most of the games made a virtue of allowing you to train yoru characters to be mages, monks, ninjas, thieves...

The idea that JRPGs are entirely on-rails experiences is a myth created by those who haven't played them. Sure, very few games offer the sort of freedom available in a Bioware or Bethesda game. But that's true of WRPGs as well. Just because a couple of developers have put on emphasis on choice, it doesn't mean we in the West have suddenly mastered free-form roleplaying. Legend Of Mana on the PS1 is about as non-linear as you can get, and that's a bloody Squaresoft title.

In short, before you start roasting a genre because of its so-called flaws, it's probably best to look an actually see if those flaws really apply to the genre at large, or are you simply looking at things from a certain culture-bias. I'm not saying there aren't highly restricted JRPGs out there. I'm saying that the idea that all JRPGs restrictive experiences is no truer than the idea that all WRPGs are playgrounds of moral choices. If you actually take the time to look around a little, you'll find a veritable plethora of JRPGs that offer the sort of non-linear experiences we in the West so pride ourselves on.
Well said, sir, well said. I applaud you for putting what I was going to say into words.

I enjoy JRPGs, I enjoy WRPGs, and I do get annoyed by people who think that fans of one RPG-subgenre (specifically WRPGs, for some reason) must never like the other. And it's always sad to see people say that no JRPGs that have customization/freedom/what have you. I've seen some good examples of branching storylines and free worlds in both JRPGs and WRPGs. Stereotyping game genres makes me a sad little girl.
 

masticina

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To little or to much choice both is bad.

If to little you get a FF XIII or that Demonforge game thingy. You have no choice and pushed forward.
But if you have to much choice well then you end up with offering the player to many decisions "Mmm should I do a good deed in this town or should I do a main story mission"

See it also depends on the player some like to have little choice others really can't do without said choice. The STORY is an important part.. I agree but what has failed in many Final Fantasy's is that to be fair if someone died.. you didn't care. THE STORY said it had to happen so really.

If a person dies in a game with more open choices.. well you know you might had made a different choice.

And yes JRPG tend to offer much less choice but not all are Final Fantasy XIII, now that was just.. some actually are pretty good. And don't fall into the trap.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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I think the problem is that most people not familiar with the subgenre think Final Fantasy=all JRPGs. That is so wrong it hurts. Just because one popular franchise tends to play one way does not mean the entire subgenre follows suit.
 

Inkidu

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LiberalSquirrel said:
j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Oh for goodness sake... I already wrote one essay on this topic today, and I'm not typing out another. I'll paraphrase the argument I used earlier:

The divide between WRPGs and JRPGs is nowhere near as big as you may think. The stereotypical complaints many gamers have of JRPGs are, in a lot of cases, outdated, or simply were never really all that applicable in the first place.

Regarding linearity and choice: the problem here is the Western gamers have built up the WRPG genre to be something it isn't. If you listen to any WRPG fan, apparantly every WRPG out on the market is a never-ending fountain of moral choices and customisation, and such has it been for as long as anyone can remember. The truth is that there are about six recent succesful WRPG properties that really put an emphasis on choice: Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Fallout, The Elder Scrolls, The Witcher, and Deus Ex (though HR is yet to be released). Seven if you want to (charitably) include Fable. Seven games do not constitute a genre. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of other WRPGs out there which don't incorporate freedom of choice. Sure, WRPGs tend across the board to allow for a great degree of character customization, but the kind of non-linear choices we like to boast about in the West are actually reserved to only a few games.

And on the other side of the debate, there are non-linear JRPGs, and have been for years. Despite Mass Effect's recent success, Chrono Trigger is and probably always will be the posterchild for RPGs that allow choices and multiple endings, and it's a Japanese game. Heck, if you take non-linearity to include allowing you to explore the world and customize your characters, then even the bulk of the Final Fantasy series is non-linear. Most of the games made a virtue of allowing you to train yoru characters to be mages, monks, ninjas, thieves...

The idea that JRPGs are entirely on-rails experiences is a myth created by those who haven't played them. Sure, very few games offer the sort of freedom available in a Bioware or Bethesda game. But that's true of WRPGs as well. Just because a couple of developers have put on emphasis on choice, it doesn't mean we in the West have suddenly mastered free-form roleplaying. Legend Of Mana on the PS1 is about as non-linear as you can get, and that's a bloody Squaresoft title.

In short, before you start roasting a genre because of its so-called flaws, it's probably best to look an actually see if those flaws really apply to the genre at large, or are you simply looking at things from a certain culture-bias. I'm not saying there aren't highly restricted JRPGs out there. I'm saying that the idea that all JRPGs restrictive experiences is no truer than the idea that all WRPGs are playgrounds of moral choices. If you actually take the time to look around a little, you'll find a veritable plethora of JRPGs that offer the sort of non-linear experiences we in the West so pride ourselves on.
Well said, sir, well said. I applaud you for putting what I was going to say into words.

I enjoy JRPGs, I enjoy WRPGs, and I do get annoyed by people who think that fans of one RPG-subgenre (specifically WRPGs, for some reason) must never like the other. And it's always sad to see people say that no JRPGs that have customization/freedom/what have you. I've seen some good examples of branching storylines and free worlds in both JRPGs and WRPGs. Stereotyping game genres makes me a sad little girl.
I used to enjoy JRPGs a lot more than I do now, and it really has nothing to do with the gameplay in terms of TBS or whatnot, but I find that I have trouble digesting the closed narratives of your typical JRPG because culturally in Japan cliches, tropes, and stereotypes/archetypes are less looked down upon. They're seen more as refining a tradition or homage. That's not a bad thing. Western RPGs have all this too, but they usually sweeten the deal with a lot more open gameplay. So I can kind of inject my own personality and intelligence to the game.

The going forward and hitting A in Final Fantasy XIII would not have been so bad if the story had been better and probably if they'd opened up a bit more on the leveling system. Otherwise it's hit A to go forward on everything and watch the pretty colors.
 

chocolatekake

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I've never had a problem with JRPG's, but I've never been as big on western RPG's. As it's been said, the problem is that a JRPG isn't really an RPG at all, by most standards, since there really is only as much role-playing as any Mario game.

And on that note, Mario games and most FPS's put you in the role of a given appearance and personality that you have no control over. And they generally have fairly, if not very, linear gameplay. The problem doesn't seem to be a disliking of the genre, so much as a misunderstanding of what it is supposed to be.
 

bunji

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Nov 14, 2010
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I like how JRPGs are assumed to have better stories, period, without anyone ever offering a good explanation as to why.

Why does FF(insert number) have a better story than Halo? As far as i can tell theyre both filled with painfully one dimensional characters or complete clichés that are present in every JRPG. Nor are any of them any sort of interesting take on any special subject.

The only difference i can tell is that Halo fans dont pretend that their game has a better story than anything else.

Disclaimer; Im not saying that JRPGs have terrible stories, I'm just saying that to me they dont seem any better than any other game genre at delivering any kind of narrative.