I think we need more original IPs with diverse characters instead of adding diversity to old ones.

[mecegirl]

I found out about the black Hermione thing by someone I knew came running up to me and basically said they changed a Harry Potter character we should all be outraged, I responded by just saying 'I'm fine with that, Hermione's race is never brought up in the books so she could be anything'.

I think they were shocked as I have previously complained about black Human Torch and black Heimdal, but my thinking is Heimdal is a Norse god so should look traditionally Norse and I would have been fine with a black Human Torch if we had a black Invisible Woman as well.

Female ghost-busters: fine, ALL female ghost-busters: Pandering, ALL male ghost-busters (these days): possibly (not always) sexist. Honestly I would have been fine with 3 female and 1 male if the casting went that way, but all female just strikes me as they are trying to appeal to the feminists, and not the good kind of feminists either.


Peter Parker as Spiderman: fine, Miles Morales: not fine, I don't like legacy characters like this, but that's just personal preference, nothing actually wrong with it but I'd prefer Miles to be some other hero instead.

I wonder about the age ranges when it comes to these two complaints. Like no one complained about the Human Torch having a clearly Hispanic big sister with a bad dye job in the first Fantastic Four movie. And Marvel's Thor is closer to being an interdimensional being than a God. It's not like Hollywood was making a live action iterpretation of the Eddas and the Sagas. Jane Foster doesn't exist in Norse Myth. Sif is blonde and Thor's a red head. Loki isn't taking jobs from Thanos. And Heimdall is the whitest/brightest god cus he wears brightass armor, has shiny gold teeth and a sunny disposition not because of the color of his skin.

Miles Morales is not the first person to pick up the Spiderman mantel. What about Miguel O'hara or Ben Reily? At least Miles ascension is its own contained story. Better than Doc. Ock running around in Peter's body. The writer for the Ultimate universe Spiderman has been the writer of the Books from the beginning. Ultimate Peter Parker is his version of Peter Parker and he is the one who chose to have Parker die and Miles pick up the mantle. Its a complete arc written by one man for over a decade. Most of the books published by the big two change writers every few years which is why there are so many continuity errors.

 

[JimB]

Like no one complained about the Human Torch having a clearly Hispanic big sister with a bad dye job in the first Fantastic Four movie.

That's because she was a Hispanic big sister with a passable dye job in the first movie. It's the second one where the dye job got embarrassing.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

You mean new IP's with diverse characters like "Remember Me" was trying to be? You know, the game that flopped horribly because despite having a decent story and fun combat, the seething hordes of people who were clamoring for diversity at the time never put their money where their mouths were.

like that?

I don't even give a toss for all this "diversity" nonsense, primarily because it is so very superficial. I would have enjoyed that game regardless of what color the main character's skin was, her gender, sex, hairstyle, class, kin... whatever. Every game released from now on until games get replaced by a better form of media could be as "diverse" as they want, but it won't stop people from finding something to cry about and it won't increase sales no matter how much people keep telling us it will.

Are you seriously blaming sjw's for the game's financial failings? That's...different. What an intriguing perspective.

 

[mecegirl]

Like no one complained about the Human Torch having a clearly Hispanic big sister with a bad dye job in the first Fantastic Four movie.

That's because she was a Hispanic big sister with a passable dye job in the first movie. It's the second one where the dye job got embarrassing.

Hmmm maybe Michael B Jordan shoukd have gone blond then. There we go, problem solved.

 

[Nismu]

Personally i think getting movies all around world more accessible would do a lot. More than Hollywood just adding characters since Hollywood tends to use very strict formulas with their movies and i doubt just adding characters would break it enough.

and same with games too.

 

[JimB]

Maybe Michael B. Jordan should have gone blond, then. There we go, problem solved.

This kind of out of the box thinking is why movie studios should consult with people like us.

 

[crimsonspear4D]

I agree that new IPs would be a great start to have an array of diverse characters but along with the public's general reluctance to try something new, especially in these economical times, I admit I'd sometimes like to see old characters with "a different coat of paint" on them, biracial spiderman and captain america, female ghost busters, gay Elsa, etc.. It's the story behind their diversity that matters of course, the trials, the experiences, the history; people of color WILL NOT have the same life experiences that caucasian people have and women WILL NOT have the same experiences as men.

My main concern is... I JUST WANT TO SEE NEW SHIT, SOMETHING THAT I HAVEN'T SEEN BEFORE BUT IS ALSO GOOD.

You mean new IP's with diverse characters like "Remember Me" was trying to be? You know, the game that flopped horribly because despite having a decent story and fun combat, the seething hordes of people who were clamoring for diversity at the time never put their money where their mouths were.

like that?

I don't even give a toss for all this "diversity" nonsense, primarily because it is so very superficial. I would have enjoyed that game regardless of what color the main character's skin was, her gender, sex, hairstyle, class, kin... whatever. Every game released from now on until games get replaced by a better form of media could be as "diverse" as they want, but it won't stop people from finding something to cry about and it won't increase sales no matter how much people keep telling us it will.

Are you seriously blaming sjw's for the game's financial failings? That's...different. What an intriguing perspective.

Really!? The game flopped? I thought it sold decently, it wasn't a chart topper, but it was good. Even so, I don't think it was because the people who clamored for it didn't buy it, it probably wasn't seen as popular for other "mainstream" gamers didn't want to buy it, probably because it had a woman of color as the main. Pure speculation of course, but I've seen worse games getting lauded for being mostly functional garbage more than anything else.

 

[elvor0]

I mean Frozen has a ton of gay and coming out parallels. This isn't even counting the fact that Elsa, the one who sings about coming out and having to no longer hiding her feelings, is one of the only Disney main characters to show zero romantic interest in anyone. It's highly unlikely that it's unintentional.

I would say the reason Elsa doesn't have any romantic interest in anyone is because that role of seeking romantic love was already taken by Anna, subverted by Hans, and ultimately fulfilled by Kristoff. Elsas arc is about finding familial love.

I would say there are things you can parallel with homosexuality and things that may be empowering if you /want/ to find them, but I really don't feel like it's intentionally an allegory for coming out. You could argue that it can be used as an allegory for many things people conceal about themselves however, but not specifically homosexuality. I feel like imposing that view on Elsa /only/ comes from the fact that she doesn't have a romantic interest, despite the fact that romance wasn't the point of her character arc and would've massively undermined it and bogged down the film if she had.

Regardless...Elsa's powers can and almost do kill people many times over. Lesbianism doesn't and can't /actually/ hurt people.

The relationship between the sisters isn't there, remember. Elsa avoided having a relationship with Anna, she closed herself off from her and avoided her.

Yes. Which is why the story is about them /finding/ a relationship.

Well...

Just to mention the song isn't a citation (will cover the song below) but you made the claim that it's just a coincidence and not intentional. The only way you could say that would be if Disney specifically stated that, which they haven't.

Well you've just shot your /own/ argument in the foot there, not his. If you're going to pull that one, then your point of view doesn't hold any water either, because Disney haven't specifically stated that it's about homosexuality either, have they? Don't forget you yourself are also making a claim that is unfounded by the creator.

Really!? The game flopped? I thought it sold decently, it wasn't a chart topper, but it was good. Even so, I don't think it was because the people who clamored for it didn't buy it, it probably wasn't seen as popular for other "mainstream" gamers didn't want to buy it, probably because it had a woman of color as the main. Pure speculation of course, but I've seen worse games getting lauded for being mostly functional garbage more than anything else.

It did flop. 190k in first six months. Now, respectable as that is for a new IP, from a publishers standpoint, it's a flop.

Most reviews complained at it for being massively repetitive, having a crap camera, bad controls and wonky fighting, with many criticism the story and writing. It wasn't awful, but lets not use a racism strawman as an excuse for what many reviewed as a rather mediocre game. I honestly don't think the majority of gamers care who they play as as long as the game is good, it's just something we're told by the publishers happens. Like with BF WW1, they were convinced we wouldn't want it, low and behold people are hoovering that shit up. Or that everyone was mad as hell when AC Unity didn't have a female character to play as (before we knew they were all the main character), and then we all tore the piss out of Ubisoft for saying female characters were too hard to animate.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I agree here. Instead of messing with existing characters, just make new ones. I don't understand what the problem is to TBH. Just make minority characters in the first place, make them believable and give them good stories to tell. It would help if the people most upset by the lack of diversity got involved and made the games/films they want to see. They would have less to complain about then and become part of the solution instead of being part of the problem.

 

[elvor0]

Well you've just shot your /own/ argument in the foot there, not his. If you're going to pull that one, then your point of view doesn't hold any water either, because Disney haven't specifically stated that it's about homosexuality either, have they? Don't forget you yourself are also making a claim that is unfounded by the creator.

Incorrect I'm pointing out the evidence and saying how it's more than likely not unintentional, given how much of it there is. He flat out said that it's a fact it's unintentional, when it's not a fact in the slightest.

Anyway Frozen is huge in the gay community due to how much LGBT themes it has in it. If you're still not seeing it after I've pointed out all the evidence then you're not going to see it. It's not even a simple case of looking for things that aren't there, it's a case of pointing out the things that are there have heavy LGBT themes. Hell, Disney were so gay friendly during that time that they hired an openly gay man to voice Kristoff.

He said it as a fact no more specifically or authoritatively than you are. You're both adamant about your own views, you even opened with

Also I mean you didn't think Elsa was gay? Like did you watch Frozen? Have you listened to the lyrics of Let It Go? Her entire character arc is basically about being gay.

That's not only stating that Elsa is gay as fact, it's also dismissive and derisive of anyone that disagrees with you straight away as stupid or not having watched the film. You are clearly stating your own opinions as "fact" as much as he is. You /don't/ have the creator backing you up either, so don't bring up the creator defence to shake the ground when you're both on the same slippery ledge.

Not only that, you're forcing a sexuality on Elsa just because she doesn't have a romantic love interest. Even if the themes of the film do turn out to be about homosexuality, that doesn't mean Elsa is either gay or straight. Elsa's sexuality has /nothing/ to do with the plot of the film.

I know it's huge in the LGBT community, I have no problem with people finding it empowering, or connecting on a personal level with themes that bear similarity to their own lives, I just don't see it specifically and purposefully only being about homosexuality. Your evidence is still subjective and anecdotal. Yes, there are themes that overlap or line up with coming out, but also other things. I'm not saying you're pointing out things that aren't there, I'm saying you're pointing out things that can mean many things and pigeonholing them into one meaning, which actually takes away from the film being able to connect with many people and limiting the themes scope.

As far as I'm concerned they're themes that /can/ be applied to homosexuality, but can also apply to, but not limited to social anxiety, self loathing, depression, fear of ones own potential; any themes that overlap with fears of being ostracized by others can be applied to Frozen, if a gay person feels better or more confident after watching Frozen? Fucking good, but that's because the themes of Frozen are universal themes, that most people will be able to relate to at /some/ point in their lives. It's not just gay people that feel that way dude.

Disney hiring a gay actor means nothing, it's the 21st century, a gay actor playing someone isn't groundbreaking, and the sexuality of the actor has no bearing on the content of the film, unless he's being typecast.

 

[Phasmal]

I'm confused, Elsa is a new character, right? Her sexuality was not established in her film, so there's no problem giving her a girlfriend, right?

But yeah, no. It's fine to change characters and it's going to keep happening so it's probably best to not get upset about it. If you start limiting what you are and aren't "allowed" to change about an established character, what makes you better than the apparently pro-censorship SJWz? Nothing.

 

[Gengisgame]

I'm confused, Elsa is a new character, right? Her sexuality was not established in her film, so there's no problem giving her a girlfriend, right?

will yeah, most fans would prefer that she's not worldwide and the little girls who project on to her.

Won't happen with ANY Disney film anyway, foreign markets too important

 

[Phasmal]

will yeah, most fans would prefer that she's not worldwide and the little girls who project on to her.

Honestly I have no idea what this is supposed to say, sorry.
If you're trying to say that most people would prefer her not to be gay, I don't think most people care that much. If they do they probably need a chill pill. And as for little girls, there are little gay girls, don't they deserve someone to project onto? It's not like we've got a fuckin' shortage of other princesses.

Won't happen with ANY Disney film anyway, foreign markets too important

I dunno about that, it'll probably happen within our lifetime, in my opinion. These things take time, but it's very unlikely that with the addition of more time and added acceptance that it won't ever happen.

 

[Gengisgame]

will yeah, most fans would prefer that she's not worldwide and the little girls who project on to her.

Honestly I have no idea what this is supposed to say, sorry.
If you're trying to say that most people would prefer her not to be gay, I don't think most people care that much. If they do they probably need a chill pill. And as for little girls, there are little gay girls, don't they deserve someone to project onto? It's not like we've got a fuckin' shortage of other princesses.


I dunno about that, it'll probably happen within our lifetime, in my opinion. These things take time, but it's very unlikely that with the addition of more time and added acceptance that it won't ever happen.

You can be state your preference for a gay but someone else can't state there's for straight, don't be a hypocrite and don't bring any idea of fairness, it's not about fairness, lots o groups will get overlooked, I see it the same as those entitled gamers who don't like the popularity of shooters and mock dude bro/ casual gamers because there genre less popular.

What about kids with autism, cripples, burn victims, girls in burkhas, girls who want to settle down and have lots of children, boys who want to marry women like that, etc, your bias in favor of gays, I understand that, that's fine, just don't pretend it's about fairness.

Maybe, maybe not, the political side of the whole LGBT is kept calm by Disney with gay comic book and TV characters. That's one of the main reasons I find the whole thing so distasteful, so many don't care about the characters, they just celebrate characters they don't care about being changed.

 

[Phasmal]

will yeah, most fans would prefer that she's not worldwide and the little girls who project on to her.

Honestly I have no idea what this is supposed to say, sorry.
If you're trying to say that most people would prefer her not to be gay, I don't think most people care that much. If they do they probably need a chill pill. And as for little girls, there are little gay girls, don't they deserve someone to project onto? It's not like we've got a fuckin' shortage of other princesses.


I dunno about that, it'll probably happen within our lifetime, in my opinion. These things take time, but it's very unlikely that with the addition of more time and added acceptance that it won't ever happen.

You can be state your preference for a gay but someone else can't state there's for straight, don't be a hypocrite and don't bring any idea of fairness, it's not about fairness, lots o groups will get overlooked, I see it the same as those entitled gamers who don't like the popularity of shooters and mock dude bro/ casual gamers because there genre less popular.

What about kids with autism, cripples, burn victims, girls in burkhas, girls who want to settle down and have lots of children, boys who want to marry women like that, etc, your bias in favor of gays, I understand that, that's fine, just don't pretend it's about fairness.

Maybe, maybe not, the political side of the whole LGBT is kept calm by Disney with gay comic book and TV characters. That's one of the main reasons I find the whole thing so distasteful, so many don't care about the characters, they just celebrate characters they don't care about being changed.

Others can state their preferences, but it's not like we have a shortage of straight characters, so if their immediate reaction to the potential of a gay character is "what about straight characters" I'm a bit sceptical.

And I would love to have Disney films with all types of characters, so I don't know why you're whipping that out like it's some sort of Trump card, it's not.
You seem to have jumped to the conclusion I only care about gay characters because I was discussing Elsa having a girlfriend, which was under discussion in this thread.
I do care about representation for gay people, but it's not the only thing I care about.

 

[Leg End]

I think diversity purely for the sake of diversity isn't a good way to go about things, nor is taking an established character and changing their race/sexuality/gender solely to tick off a checkbox.

Make a character as a character, not as a way to gloat that you have a cast with every skin-tone/sexual preference/gender under the sun just because you wanted to be the most 'diverse' of any before it.

Spoiler: Would Mario games be better if he was a girl?

No, but I'd totally play Super Mary.

Spoiler: Would Dragon Ball change is it starred Gokie?

Yes because you'd need to do other fiddling about involving character relations and such because of the jokes involving Goku not knowing the differences between males and females.

I'd still watch Dragon Ball/Z minus the balls.

 

[Gengisgame]

will yeah, most fans would prefer that she's not worldwide and the little girls who project on to her.

Honestly I have no idea what this is supposed to say, sorry.
If you're trying to say that most people would prefer her not to be gay, I don't think most people care that much. If they do they probably need a chill pill. And as for little girls, there are little gay girls, don't they deserve someone to project onto? It's not like we've got a fuckin' shortage of other princesses.


I dunno about that, it'll probably happen within our lifetime, in my opinion. These things take time, but it's very unlikely that with the addition of more time and added acceptance that it won't ever happen.

You can be state your preference for a gay but someone else can't state there's for straight, don't be a hypocrite and don't bring any idea of fairness, it's not about fairness, lots o groups will get overlooked, I see it the same as those entitled gamers who don't like the popularity of shooters and mock dude bro/ casual gamers because there genre less popular.

What about kids with autism, cripples, burn victims, girls in burkhas, girls who want to settle down and have lots of children, boys who want to marry women like that, etc, your bias in favor of gays, I understand that, that's fine, just don't pretend it's about fairness.

Maybe, maybe not, the political side of the whole LGBT is kept calm by Disney with gay comic book and TV characters. That's one of the main reasons I find the whole thing so distasteful, so many don't care about the characters, they just celebrate characters they don't care about being changed.

Others can state their preferences, but it's not like we have a shortage of straight characters, so if their immediate reaction to the potential of a gay character is "what about straight characters" I'm a bit sceptical.

And I would love to have Disney films with all types of characters, so I don't know why you're whipping that out like it's some sort of Trump card, it's not.
You seem to have jumped to the conclusion I only care about gay characters because I was discussing Elsa having a girlfriend, which was under discussion in this thread.
I do care about representation for gay people, but it's not the only thing I care about.

Irrelevant to the fan, that's the thinking of a person who mainly cares about making characters something. If a character I didn't care about was changed, I wouldn't care, if I liked them I would. This isn't a numbers game for fans. You don't tell someone "where changing your favorite character go find a new one" and expect them to not be critical and you know the people who don't understand this would call them homophobic.

It is a trump card, it's not about fairness, it's about bias.

I don't think you only care about gays assuming your not a robot, not speaking about you in particular here but both me and you know that it would be an outright lie to even think that the people who on about inclusiveness care about those with mental issues despite there great numbers anywhere near as much as they care about gays.

I'm tolerant as gays as individuals, but there's someone important in my life with a mental disability so I'm bias in favor of that over that of the handful of gays I know who can look after themselves.

I'm bias, I admit my bias, I don't expect anyone else to care and strangers shouldn't expect me to care. If I knew people I cared about who really wanted Elsa to be gay then I would almost certainly want the same but I would never pretend that my new view on the matter was out of some sense of morality and idea of making society better, but I know little girls who really like Elsa so I don't want her to be gay. I would prefer they don't have to deal with this stuff until they are older.

 

[votemarvel]

And for the record, while I was a bit annoyed at the whole Miles Morales thing at first, from what I've seen he has come into his own as a character and I think he is a fine addition to the Spiderverse. Though, I think they could have found a better way to have him take up the role than killing Ultimate Universe Peter.

They brought Ultimate Peter back to life in the comics, and yes he was the real deal and not a clone, to run away with, and live happily ever after, Mary Jane.

Then they wiped out his universe and brought Miles into the main Marvel Universe.

A shame they didn't bring Ultimate Jessica Drew (female clone of Peter) into the main Marvel U really. Imagine how Logan and Peter would react if their female clones ended up in a relationship. Now that would have been an interesting storyline.

I was never a fan of Miles Morales at the start. The stories just weren't unique enough to begin with, you could have dropped Peter into them instead and it would make very little difference. Eventually however the character became his own person and that's when I started to find him interesting.