I Wanna Be The Guy: Is this what passes for hard now?

[blasmeister]

No, what passes for Hard is Dragon Origins on Normal. If you can beat that....... you're a better RPG gamer than I am.

Agree on that. One of the only games I've ever had to temporarily lower the difficulty on, and then die another 8 times before I beat the damn section (Mages Asunder part of the Fade as a dual-wield rouge with no health potions)

Another part of what made old games so hard was the not being able to look things up when you got genuinely stuck.

 

[DevilWolf47]

I think Extra Credits did a video about the difference between difficulty of execution, depth of gameplay, and banging your head against a fucking brick wall. Go check that out.

 

[Hyper-space]

Isn't that just what they called "Nintendo-hard"?

I mean, playing some of the older and harder Nintendo classics i soon found out that you either had to have a walkthrough or simply die a couple of times as the whole game ran on memorization.

 

[Gotterdammerung]

IWBTG isn't hard, it's Masochistic. It's what you play, simply to see how it will blind-side you next. It is a fun game, but if it wasn't free, I doubt many people would buy it.

 

[BrassButtons]

I think some people have forgotten what it means for a game to be 'hard'.

And I think you are forgetting that the word 'hard' does not have a single strict definition. Yes it can mean "requiring skill", but it can also mean "requiring endurance" or "causing suffering." It's not that the game isn't hard, but that it isn't hard in a way that you enjoy.

So, what do your thoughts on this matter? Do you think games need to be more skill than knowledge orientated, or do you think you should have to learn from experience & guessing?

Personally I prefer games that are skill oriented, because I'm not a huge fan of 'Do it again, Stupid" gameplay. On the other hand, I play Nethack. So yeah. Guess it depends on the game.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

5 minutes? And you're judging the entire game based on that? Methinks thou protests too much.

 

[Magikarp]

5 minutes? And you're judging the entire game based on that? Methinks thou protests too much.

I see what you mean, but from past experience, games like that don't get any less cheap as you progress.

 

[Xanadu84]

IWBTG isn't supposed to be a normal game. It's more an exercise in exploring the limits of frustration, and an interesting examination of frustration versus reward. Sort of like that Lose/Lose game that deletes files off your computer as you kill bad guys, the game is perhaps more interesting as an academic point. It's more interesting that it exists then it is to actually play.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

5 minutes? And you're judging the entire game based on that? Methinks thou protests too much.

I see what you mean, but from past experience, games like that don't get any less cheap as you progress.

That's still hardly a basis for comparison though, is it? IWBTG is tough, but the game is based on tropes and subverting them.

QWOP is mind-rendingly difficult, but it's based on failing. The infamous Contra is Nintendo hard, or Battletoads, but they require you to learn by dying.

IWBTG is pattern recognition. And the pattern is "Trust Nothing".

 

[SimpleJack]

With video games becoming increasingly easy to play these days, people are focusing more on making these vintage style fucking torturous games...

That said i still liked super meat boy...

 

[Pearwood]

After reading a few articles proclaiming IWBTG to be the hardest game in all of creation, I decided to try it. It took me about 5 minutes to become disgusted with it & delete it.

What exactly did you expect? The harder something is the less likely it is to play fair. IWBTG is that taken to its extreme, that's why it's hard. Fair games can be hard, Demon's Souls is a good example of that but they'll never be as hard as the ones that don't play fair, just stick to a more reasonable difficulty level if you don't enjoy it.

I don't get why some people act as though the harder something is the better it is, it's good to have a challenge but if you go after something advertised as one of the biggest challenges around it's going to be frustrating.

 

[Wuffykins]

No, what passes for Hard is Dragon Origins on Normal. If you can beat that....... you're a better RPG gamer than I am.

At first I was all ready with a 'Whaaaa?! You're serious?' response to that, but then I remembered the ridiculous HP bloat in the boss fights (Hell, I only beat the Mages Tower on Hard because I had 2 healers, which was followed by a prompt uninstall). HP bloat is not increased difficulty, it's just an exercise in being tedious.

As for proper hard games, well this is why I'm glad games like Monster Hunter are around.

*WARNING: INCOMING FANBOY SPIEL*

Yeah, I'll keep it a little toned down this time, but really it's a game that when (yeah, you know you'll do it/have done it) start the game by charging right in and mashing the attack button, you will get your ass handed to you by the lowest tier of creature. It's a game that forces you to stop and think of what you're doing, take the time to figure out a creature's attack pattern and weakness, and take the damn thing out. Is that dragon bloated with HP and can take you out in 1-2 swings (3 if you picked up that spiffy armor)? Yes, but it's a big friggin' dragon, it's supposed to be like that, but it sure as hell doesn't feel cheap as compared to other games.

/End Fanboy

Still, cheap difficulty games can be fun from time to time. I've been regularly playing Ninja Gaiden since it's original release in '88 (at least once a year), and though I've all but memorized the first 3-4 levels, I still get stuck in the same damn spot. Doesn't stop me from trying to get past it though.

 

[SadisticBrownie]

Never played the actual game, but the guy levels on SMB are truly evil.

 

[Axelhander]

After reading a few articles proclaiming IWBTG to be the hardest game in all of creation, I decided to try it. It took me about 5 minutes to become disgusted with it & delete it.

I think some people have forgotten what it means for a game to be 'hard'. A hard game is a game that requires a high level of skill to complete. Games like IWBTG just seem to require you to die to work out what you have to do on almost every obstacle, thus requiring you to repeat everything before it just to have your first fair try at beating it. Obstacles should be surpassable without prior knowledge of them, & only require skill.

There seem to be many instances of this in games these days, usually restricted to the highest difficulty. The first thing that springs to mind is veteran difficulty on CoD: World at War; specifically the infinitely respawning soldiers thatthrew a grenade every couple of seconds.

/rant. So, what do your thoughts on this matter? Do you think games need to be more skill than knowledge orientated, or do you think you should have to learn from experience & guessing?

EDIT: Okay, maybe I shouldn't've taken it as a serious game, but this rule still applies to many other games, many of which are serious.

The creator of IWBTG posts on the Sirlin.net forums as KayinN. He's an extraordinarily intelligent fellow with great insights on game design.

On that same forum he talks about IWBTG, and his thoughts are very intriguing. I'd check it out. You might realize just what IWBTG is supposed to be.

 

[monstersquad]

This rant reminds me of an old, old PC game called Robinson's Requiem. That game was HARD. Every single aspect of the basic game mechanics meant you WILL die, many many times before you're able to beat the game. I mean, firstly, you can get an infected limb, and then you can cut it off and still keep on going, if you can. Everythig in that game is meant to kill you, in a pseudo-realistic way.

 

[Javarock]

I think all games should be as hard as this boss battle.


Beacuse that is how it should be

Obviously.

 

[Magikarp]

5 minutes? And you're judging the entire game based on that? Methinks thou protests too much.

I see what you mean, but from past experience, games like that don't get any less cheap as you progress.

That's still hardly a basis for comparison though, is it? IWBTG is tough, but the game is based on tropes and subverting them.

QWOP is mind-rendingly difficult, but it's based on failing. The infamous Contra is Nintendo hard, or Battletoads, but they require you to learn by dying.

IWBTG is pattern recognition. And the pattern is "Trust Nothing".

But the problem is, there is no way of expecting the unexpected. You have no idea about things like which spike is going to fall, so you have to guess & hope you made the right choice. "Trust nothing" isn't a pattern, it's a LACK of pattern.

 

[Grabbin Keelz]

IWBTG trains perseverance and practice. The only way to beat it is to have the urge to keep going without giving up, and then when you go back to previous levels that were once thought impossible you can just breeze right through them. Hell, I beat three bosses on impossible.