I want to believe...
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I sincerly hope you never take a philosophy course, or that you're just trolling.Phuctifyno said:It sure does. Check this out: willing / free willArakasi said:
In order to be willing to do something, the option to not be willing must be present, thus giving the willer a choice, which the willer will make using his free will, or his willie's free will.
BAM
Saying will does not prove free will. Will exists. Here's it's definition:
Will
-Intend, desire, or wish (something) to happen: "he was doing what the saint willed".
Free will on the other hand, does not exist.
I'm a pantheist, basically, so I believe universe is a conscious entity. I don't like calling it "god" though, because people then assign all sorts of christian-like or other-religion-like ideas to it which I consider being false and making no sense. Also, aliens, I consider them a statistical inevitability.
And magic, and supernatural. I consider them to be yet undiscovered part of physics, probably arising as a consequence of quantum effects.
Despite that, I think and act like an atheist, skeptic and rationalist. I've never pushed these beliefs on anyone, and rarely talk about them unless asked directly by someone of which I know to be genuinely curious and not just asking to start a discussion in which they can push their beliefs onto me. I am aware of the possibility of being wrong, am okay with it, and I'd be pretty much okay (though a little sad, and a little more confused than I am anyways) if they were proved to be wrong beyond the shadow of a doubt.
At the same time, I believe that my beliefs will at least partially be proven to be true during my lifetime.
(And that tiny parts of them already are, but nobody who would generally be considered sane or rational seems to be willing to connect the dots to realize it, maybe from the fear of losing that status, maybe because they're TOO grounded in evidence and unwilling to run with a hypothesis similar to what tends to be automatically waved-off as pseudo-science, because of all the other religious pseudo-science already out there.)
Also, I would LOVE to believe that I matter, that the things I cannot stop thinking about doing and wanting to do are things I'm supposed to do in this life, that they are meaningful and interesting and important ideas to share with the world, at least in a way, but it's hard and most of the time I am unable to believe that because the whole world seems to act like it doesn't give a frack.
And magic, and supernatural. I consider them to be yet undiscovered part of physics, probably arising as a consequence of quantum effects.
Despite that, I think and act like an atheist, skeptic and rationalist. I've never pushed these beliefs on anyone, and rarely talk about them unless asked directly by someone of which I know to be genuinely curious and not just asking to start a discussion in which they can push their beliefs onto me. I am aware of the possibility of being wrong, am okay with it, and I'd be pretty much okay (though a little sad, and a little more confused than I am anyways) if they were proved to be wrong beyond the shadow of a doubt.
At the same time, I believe that my beliefs will at least partially be proven to be true during my lifetime.
(And that tiny parts of them already are, but nobody who would generally be considered sane or rational seems to be willing to connect the dots to realize it, maybe from the fear of losing that status, maybe because they're TOO grounded in evidence and unwilling to run with a hypothesis similar to what tends to be automatically waved-off as pseudo-science, because of all the other religious pseudo-science already out there.)
Also, I would LOVE to believe that I matter, that the things I cannot stop thinking about doing and wanting to do are things I'm supposed to do in this life, that they are meaningful and interesting and important ideas to share with the world, at least in a way, but it's hard and most of the time I am unable to believe that because the whole world seems to act like it doesn't give a frack.
So who do you /believe/ (ie not know for a fact as you've put it) is in charge of this whole shebang then? Because it would have to be some sort of higher power directing the show. And so far he's a bit of a dick. Mind you, when I'm in charge in Civ 5 I always go for the bloody conquest route, maybe that's what the god(s) or spirits, or nymphs or genies were up to with the Nazis. They just got bored.Arakasi said:I sincerly hope you never take a philosophy course, or that you're just trolling.Phuctifyno said:It sure does. Check this out: willing / free willArakasi said:
In order to be willing to do something, the option to not be willing must be present, thus giving the willer a choice, which the willer will make using his free will, or his willie's free will.
BAM
Saying will does not prove free will. Will exists. Here's it's definition:
Will
-Intend, desire, or wish (something) to happen: "he was doing what the saint willed".
Free will on the other hand, does not exist.
Either that or everything is just predetermined...because, because reasons.
Also, what does this lack of free will encompass? Animals are no where near as intelligent as us and function on instinct, or bactiria, or amobea or the single celled organisms we evolved from in the first place. If animals are not subject to this lack of free will, then at what point do we join the play? Simple enough creatures don't even lack the higher function necessary to do anything more than divide, yet are still living creatures, yet they wouldn't even begin to act on instinct let alone perform something resembling "free will". Are their paths all predetermined, or is it just us that are susceptible to the whims of the director?
Or do you believe that the Universe is sentient and is in charge? That the planet itself leads us? What of natural disasters, do they happen because they were "told" to happen, or are they anomalies in the plan? Are we essentially ad libbing in reaction to a world that isn't being controlled without even knowing we are commanded into our reactions?
I know neither of us can really argue either way, but I don't believe in any sort of mystical higher power, thus I'm inclined to agree with us having free will. Otherwise if we go with the fact that most dogma preaches a loving higher power, then he sure as hell isn't the one running things, because if it is, then he's a fucking dick, I'll tell you that for starters.
Note I'm not asking this in a "if a tree falls in the woods...." way, I'm asking you personally what the lack of free will means to you.
I feel like should move to Italy, take up my old family name, get coked up and write a book on the nature of free will now.
On Topic to get away from the tad philisophical nature of that debate, I believe in Aliens, mainly because it seems illogical to assume otherwise. The size and scope of the universe /has/ to have produced something capable of bearing the mantle of "intelligent" life.
I am in general a skeptic about most pseudo-science "theories" but alien life isn't really too difficult to believe in. After all...
No matter how "special" human development is and how rare what we call "intelligent life" is... in an infinite universe it?s an almost statistic inevitability that it has happened elsewhere. What I without a doubt do NOT believe in is ANY "evidence" that alien races have visited our planet. Any species advanced enough to actually TRAVEL here will easily have the technology to observe us without our detecting their presence, much less crashing into power lines and suffering through an autopsy.Baron von Blitztank said:
I've seen no evidence to suggest that some kind of higher power would have to be in charge of the universe.elvor0 said:So who do you /believe/ (ie not know for a fact as you've put it) is in charge of this whole shebang then? Because it would have to be some sort of higher power directing the show.Arakasi said:I sincerly hope you never take a philosophy course, or that you're just trolling.Phuctifyno said:It sure does. Check this out: willing / free willArakasi said:
In order to be willing to do something, the option to not be willing must be present, thus giving the willer a choice, which the willer will make using his free will, or his willie's free will.
BAM
Saying will does not prove free will. Will exists. Here's it's definition:
Will
-Intend, desire, or wish (something) to happen: "he was doing what the saint willed".
Free will on the other hand, does not exist.
If there were a higher power it is either incompetent or malevolent, neither of which are good options.elvor0 said:
Eh?elvor0 said:
Everything is subject to this lack of free will, because it is a myth. I think you may be quoting the wrong person...elvor0 said:
Again, I think you're quoting the wrong person.elvor0 said:
Again, I have seen no evidence to the universe being sentient. I do not believe in any higher power.elvor0 said:
I am so confused right now. Why would there being a higher power make it so we don't have free will (actually, I can answer that one, but I won't go into that now)? Why would we have free will if there was no higher power?elvor0 said:
I dunno, it's possible that one of their ships could've crapped out when they were flying over head and the only posibility was to escape pod and land in Roswell. Not that I necessarily believe that, but it's...somewhat plausible.Kyrian007 said:
Captcha: The hell is with this sites hard on for Black Mirror recently, I don't fucking know when it starts airing, I just want to make a post!
You said on page 2, that you don't believe in Free Will, you also said in the post that I quoted that "Free Will on the other hand, does not exist". It's right there in the post you've quoted me for. I was questioning your belief, with points and questions as to what you believe a lack of free will encompasses. You even said in this post that I'm quoting now that free will is a myth, so I have no idea how I'm quoting the wrong person. It may not have been as direct as "What do you think a lack of free will encompases" because obviously that question is far too simple for the subject matter.Arakasi said:
From what you've said here, I can only gleam that you don't believe in a higher power, and that things just happen because they are predetermined to happen, (regardless of species or standing in the universe) and no other reason.
It's a rather "philosophical" matter to be discussing, hence the long nature of my point discussing the implications of there being a lack of free will. Not that I'm attacking your belief, I'm actually quite enjoying sitting here musing on it while I take a break from my coursework. I just wondered what your particular thoughts on the matter were and was giving you food for thought in my post.
Had you said you did believe in a higher power, I could buy why you might believe in a lack of free will, but the idea that everything is predetermined from the beginning of time, to now, to the end of the universe seems a bit difficult to swallow if there's no supposed outside force governing it all.
Hehe, I'm sorry, but opening and closing doors are always the biggest anecdotal proof that people who believe in ghosts give... I mean someone I knew in highschool was completely and utterly convinced that his grandpa haunted his house, because the fridge door used to open on it's own... disregarding the 40 thousand items weighing down the door and the fact that it was most likely just old... but nope, his grandpa used to leave the fridge door open in the middle of the night, so obviously ghosts, or spirits or whatever... actually they have an account on here... I hope they don't see this... but I'm pretty sure I made my opinion, that I think that they're wrong pretty clear, when he brought it up...<.<Redlin5 said:
OT: Hmm, I think of my self as someone who's well grounded, I don't believe in ghosts, or aliens, or gods, or any of that... honestly, I'm having a really hard time coming up with something that I "believe" in... maybe that the world doesn't really exist as definable objects or things, only stimuli that we interact with creating our own perception of it... that's always made sense to me... and I guess it's true on some level though maybe not in the extreme way that I think it is...<.<
Huh, that's a really interesting idea... I'm gonna have to look into that... though I have the feeling that I'll be convincing myself into believing it for comforts sake... though I'v avoided that so far, pretty well...Jack the Potato said:
I am so confused about your post that I'll just going to have to explain the entire thing so you can understand.elvor0 said:
There is no free will.
Why? Because matter either acts in a determined manner (through cause and effect) or an indetermined matter (there is an element of randomness to the process. As the brain is made of matter, anything which happens inside the brain was caused either by priod causes or by prior causes with a mix of randomness.
By what standard is this free?
Also, if there were a higher power, by what means could we be free then?
Moses Maimonides said:
I believe the US dollar is going to collapse, or slowly inflate, due too inherant weaknesses in the US economy.
I don't believe in anything. I mean, I believe there ARE aliens somewhere. Are they here? No. Where are they? Why do they only target bored red necks to do semi homo erotic experiments on? We'll probably talk to them some day but chances are they're using a technology to communicate hundreds or thousands of years more advanced than us. That's IF intelligent life doesn't invariably destroy itself.
Are there ghosts? No. Every place where a person has died would have them. Hell, a hospital would be filled to the brim with them.
Is there karma? No. There are some truly horrible people in the world who have everything a person could possibly ask for who will live long, healthy lives filled with making everyone around them miserable while terrible things still happen to wonderful people.
Magic? No. I'd be the first person buying some eye of newt and drawing some pentagrams.
God? Afterlife? No and no.
The world would be a much more interesting place if any of those things exist. I can understand people's want and need for them. Life is long, boring, often horrible filled with pain and random tragedies. It's probably why I play so many video games. Life sucks. If you're poor and have nothing to believe in your only recourse is escapism.
Are there ghosts? No. Every place where a person has died would have them. Hell, a hospital would be filled to the brim with them.
Is there karma? No. There are some truly horrible people in the world who have everything a person could possibly ask for who will live long, healthy lives filled with making everyone around them miserable while terrible things still happen to wonderful people.
Magic? No. I'd be the first person buying some eye of newt and drawing some pentagrams.
God? Afterlife? No and no.
The world would be a much more interesting place if any of those things exist. I can understand people's want and need for them. Life is long, boring, often horrible filled with pain and random tragedies. It's probably why I play so many video games. Life sucks. If you're poor and have nothing to believe in your only recourse is escapism.
Not too many contrary opinions here.
Though I do believe free will doesn't exist, we're all just insanely complicated biological automatons. I think that's still something most don't believe in.
And no, that doesn't mean I consider human life worthless. It means I consider insanely complicated biological automatons to be valuable beyond measure.
Though I do believe free will doesn't exist, we're all just insanely complicated biological automatons. I think that's still something most don't believe in.
And no, that doesn't mean I consider human life worthless. It means I consider insanely complicated biological automatons to be valuable beyond measure.
Yeah my post was a more posed towards people who see it in a more "spiritual" light, it was very much discussing the matter in a philosophical way(ugh I'm hating the fact that I have to describe it that way, pretentiousness abounds ¬¬). Which is generally the majority when it comes to this and what I was expecting. It's a very complex and awkward subject manner, which no one can answer for certain, especially while I'm sober, hence why my original post was so lengthy, a lot of questions need to be asked of the matter and what it encompasses. However your explanation does seem a bit... Spartan.Arakasi said:
A scientific approach to the matter certainly makes for an easier discussion though. I suppose you could technically see it like that, but to view the world that way would be rather depressing to me, to say the least, I already believe that we have no reason to be here other than because we are, so to see everything be determined on a literal atomic scale would be totally crushing.
Enough rambling though, to answer your point, because that's not the same thing as free will. Yes if for example I stick a match in a bottle of oil, it will burst into flames, as a result of its atomic structure, and if I find something I like, my brain will release endorphins, making me feel happy, I have no effect over this. I do however have the ability to make decisions, my brain isn't pre-programmed to make decisions for me before I knew they would happen, because they haven't happened yet, as I'm sure you'd agree. Otherwise this would imply some sort of link between everyone and everything so that we all synch up with our pre recorded responses.
Things behave in a certain way because they are the way that they are, but this is not the same as the concept of free will, as a sentient being, I am capable of decision making, thus unless /everything/ is pre decided, I am the master of my own fate. The oil will always burn if I set it alight, but it is the fact that I alone have the choice to set it on fire that demonstrates my own capability of free will.
On Maimonides point: That is merely speculation. No one may claim to know god (if he even exists), apparently and thus speaking for him in matters that we don't even know to be true seems rather superfluous. I am stating that for me, a higher power would need to be in play to govern things, otherwise we're saying the universe governs itself into this pre destined fate, implying /some/ degree of sentience in the universe.
Even then, Jehova is stated as being all knowing. That does not necessarily mean he knows how everything will happen, it may mean that he knows everything that is currently happening, or that he can see in to the future, in which case, should he tell someone that something bad will happen to them, and they take steps to prevent this, the future has been altered and thus was not pre-determined to happen, leading to free will.
Of course a higher power doesn't mean that we will or not have free will either way, just that I find a lack of free will without a higher power to be difficult to swallow.
Otherwise we're just saying that pre-determined things happen...because they do. And that's a cop out answer. That everything, the first cells, the big bang, the path of evolution, decisions of humans, instincts of animals, who will live and who will die, are all prerecorded into the very fabric of reality, and that no one has a say in what will happen, from the alpha to the omega of time.
Although now that there's a couple of people in the thread talking about this "biologically pre-recorded script thingy", I'm starting to worry it's something that's popped up on the internet and people have taken to just saying. Like pan sexual, or demi sexual. I hate those guys.
Can you direct me to anything that gives me a more detailed article on this?
I have never seen someone come from a religious or spiritual background and use that to disprove free will, it has always been from a scientific background, see this poll: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.397699-Poll-Free-Will-and-You?page=1elvor0 said:
Also, saying philosophical does not make you pretentious, it is a philosophical matter.
Depressing for you or no, truth takes presidence. Besides, it doesn't really change how you act.elvor0 said:
Anything your brain does is related to its atomic structure, from making you happy, to how you react to it making you happy.elvor0 said:
Decision making is a programmed response, programmed by evolution. Computers can also make decisions, there's AI (still nowhere near as advanced as humans, but that's beyond the point) that from an outside perspective could seem to have free will. And actually, from a neurobiological point of view, your brain does know what decision you are going to make before you are consiously aware of it: http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.htmlelvor0 said:
Perhaps you should also read The Selfish Gene, which has quite good explanations as to why we are often very different in terms of how we behave from an evolutionary perspective.
And the same applies to humans, just like it applies to animals, plants and any other thing.elvor0 said:
You're right, but it affects it, insofar as it breaks the traditional notion of free will.elvor0 said:
Your brain is nothing more than a very advanced survival computer. Any decisions you make are a result of your genetics and how your environment has affected those genetics.elvor0 said:
I already argued this. I personally am a determinist, meaning that I think everything is already pre-determined, but even if indeterminism were true which it very well could be, that leaves no room for free will either, as indeterminism allows only for semi-random actions to occur, actions which you still aren't in control of.elvor0 said:
Wrong.elvor0 said:
Your choice was determined by all the factors that affected your genetics, your environment and thus your brain, and therefore you had no actual choice in the matter. You had a choice insofar as you could consider other options, but you did not perform those other options because of preceeding factors that were outside of your control.
...What?elvor0 said:
If god can be broken by logic, then it follows that god in that manner probably does not exist. As for the second sentence... I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'll try respond anyway.
Why would a higher power need to govern things? We have the laws of physics, we understand to some extent that the unvierse as we know it follows rules, but that does not even remotely imply a higher power.
If the universe were pre-determined, and I think it is, that would by no means imply a sentience in the universe.
All-knowing means he knows everything, as far as I know, the future is included under the banner of 'everything', because everything is included under the banner of everything.elvor0 said:
All knowing means it has to be able to see into the future.elvor0 said:
He would, were the Jewish god not an asshole.elvor0 said:
No. The god would see the event happen unless they intervened, as they know everything, and thus would either act or not act based upon that knowledge. If they did act, it did not change the future, it was merely someone acting on knowledge. If I were to read a book and predict a disaster, unless someone fixed it, and they do fix it, would you be saying I changed the future? Perhaps, but not in the sense that anything else could have happened.elvor0 said:
Omnisence is incompatable with free will. A higher power without omnisence is in effect blind, and not all-powerful, so they may be a higher power, but that means little. I could say a higher power than me is America, because it has a military and I don't.elvor0 said:
No, that's not what we're saying.elvor0 said:
Pre-determined things happen because they were caused by past things. There's nothing more to it.
That's about the size of it. Deal with it.elvor0 said:
It was summer, in the woods of eastern Canada. And this "beast" was easily bigger than I.Little Woodsman said:
It was in the middle of the night, but the creature had such white fur that it was very easily visible.
It's hard to give any more detail, as it easily traveled 15 meters uphill then back in to the woods in under 5 seconds.
At least, it felt like 5 seconds. Difficult to judge these things that happened so long ago.