I want to play a game about a female crimelord or career criminal.

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FieryTrainwreck

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Netrigan said:
Well, you seem to be under the delusion that I'm trying to equate all these things.
You said "I don't see a difference" (which screams equation to me) right off the bat, so I kind of resent the notion that I'm operating under a delusion when you created the premise.

You may call it reductive, but the underlying principle is pretty much the same in either case. You see something you don't like, you air your criticism, the point of the criticism is to get someone in a position of power to respond to your complaint. From the smallest most asinine complaint to the most important thing ever, complaining is a way of attempting to fix a perceived problem.
I'm sure the brain chemistry is even very similar. But the value of the complaints is not automatically the same - not in terms of their value to the environment and the actors within. I think a well-reasoned complaint deserves a groundswell of support and serious consideration from those in power. I think a bullshit or inaccurate complaint deserves a critical response but not serious consideration, and the volume of the complainer really shouldn't factor into the proceedings at all.

In every case, it's possible for someone to work their way up through the system and change it from within. In fact, many a career has been started by people who said, "fuck this, I could make a better electric razor than this." But whenever someone tells someone else to do that, they're telling them to shut up.
Again, I think there's a chasm of difference between criticism based on mechanical design and functionality and criticism based on more subjective and thematic content. Also, if you research a razor and find claims that it won't shave your face very well, do you buy it anyways and complain? Or do you seek out other razors? And if literally no one makes the sort of razor you need, do you sourly criticize all the razors admirably servicing the majority of the market place? Or do you see about finding someone who will make you and people like you the razors you desire?

In a nutshell: if people perceive a gap in the market, it doesn't fall on existing producers to fill that gap. Yelling at them to do so is lazy, selfish, and frequently counterproductive. Support the stuff you like, ignore the stuff you don't. The way some people talk, I'm convinced they won't be happy (and won't stop crusading) until literally every game somehow revolves around (or pays homage to) their worldview. That's not how a free market place of ideas is supposed to work. There will *always* be games and other media that portray things some people won't like or enjoy, and trying to shame or criticize them out of existence isn't progressive. It's fascist.
 

Jamash

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Kingjackl said:
I was thinking, if one of the GTAV protagonists had to be female, which one should it be? I don't think it would work for Michael because his entire character can be summed up with "mid-life crisis", and it could theoretically work for Franklin, but what about Trevor? If you didn't change anything about his personality, actions or mannerisms, just made him female, how good would that be?

As well know, not only are there not enough female protagonists out there, but there aren't enough that break the moulds of 'safe' characterisation. They're all conventionally attractive, very few of them have dark or grey morality, and the ones that are are mostly player-created avatars like the Saints Row boss. If Trevor had been female, and just as ugly, despicable and manic as he is now, it could probably have been one of the most unique female protagonists out there.
Out of all the GTA V protagonists, Trevor is the one who would be least suited to a gender swap.

Take his opening scene where's he's fucking Ashley then curb stomps Johnny, destroys the lost and intimidates a high ranking member of the Varrios Los Aztecas.

Would you have a female Trevor fucking Ashley with a strap on? Would Johnny be as angry about a lesbian having sex with his woman and would he be intimidated and back down, then get beaten to death by a women? Would the traditionally misogynist groups like The Lost and Aztecas have as much respect for a woman and thus be fearful of and intimidated by a female Trevor, irrespective of how crazy they are?

A lot of Trevor's issues stem from his childhood and relationship with his mother. It just wouldn't be the same if a female took issues with a mother who made them wear dresses, nor would be the same if the female Trevor was forced to dress like a boy by a gigolo stripper father.

The random switch scenes where Trevor wakes up in a dress would just fall flat if it was a women who suddenly woke up wearing trousers and a shirt... unless you emphasised that this was a crazy act of cross-dressing by limiting her normal wardrobe to stereotypically female attire like dresses, skirts and blouses.

What about the story arc where Trevor falls for Patricia Madrozo (who bears a resemblance to his mother) and white knight rescues her from Martin, forcing Trevor and Michael to go into exile. Would you just make Patricia suddenly bisexual, or would you swap their genders around too and have it so it's a female Mexican crime lord called Martina Madrozo who has her meek husband Patrick stolen by Trevoretta? Would the story work with Martin Madrozo also being female... which could affect the gender of his girlfriend, which would also has a knock on effect of changing the gender of the Tennis coach who was sleeping with Michael's wife, who would also possibly need change genders along with Michael himself unless we apply Skyrim levels of bisexuality to most of the key characters.

Some of Trevor's Strangers and Freaks missions revolve around him being male, like when he's mistaken for the actor Jock Cranley, or is offered sex with the wife of someone in returns for favours. Swapping genders in that case to have her mistaken for a female Arnold Schwarzenegger parody or doing favours for a woman who is pimping out her husband just wouldn't be the same and would seem odd (male sex trafficking by women just isn't as much of a recognisable thing or stigma).

Even minor facets to his personality and conversations wouldn't be the same, like the question of his bisexuality and subsequence conversation with Franklin and LaMar. His "any hole's goal" attitude towards sex and the penetrating act of dominance wouldn't be present if he was a bisexual woman, nor would it be such an issue and talking point with Franklin and LaMar, since female bisexuality is a lot more accepted and almost expected.

How would his alpha male relationship with Ron, Wade and Floyd work if he was female? A female Trevor convincing Ron to leave his wife and making Ron distrustful of woman... because a woman told him so? What about when he consoles Floyd about having a small penis by showing Floyd his vagina... then goes undercover as a female dockworker in an all male environment?

Changing Trevor's gender wouldn't be such a simple task and would require complete rewrites of many aspects of the story and supporting characters, or if nothing else was changed, it would have the effect of a lot of things not making sense... a gritty realistic crime drama where sexual dimorphism, sexism and misogyny exists in the world, except in the case of Trevoretta, who everyone just pretends is a man and who acts like a voracious lesbian. It would be as odd as changing Franklin to a white man but not changing the race and ethnicity of any of this family, friends or background and still have story dialogue making many references to him being black.
 

Rebel_Raven

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VVThoughtBox said:
zen5887 said:
I was really let down by GTA5 in this department. I feel like they missed a golden opportunity to throw something interesting into the mix. The GTA games have been pretty good with diversity in other games but still no women?
None of the female characters of GTA V had reasons or motives to get into organized crime. Molly is just helping Devin Weston screw over people legally and has no goals of her own, Tanisha broke up with Franklin because she wants to get out of the hood and doesn't want to be associated with a criminal. Amanda already has large amounts of money through Micheal's bank robberies and her daughter Tracy just wants to be a TV-star. Paige is only in it for the money, and Taliana is just a mix of money and she owes the MC for saving her life. Even if one of these characters were part of a gang like the Ballas, or Grove Street, it would be all for nothing. Most of the game is spent trying to convince the player that a private military contractor like Not-Blackwater is somehow way more evil than street gangs. The street gangs of Today aren't as powerful as they were back in San Andreas, most likely because there's no corrupt cop empowering them with weapons, money and drugs.
Kingjackl said:
I was thinking, if one of the GTAV protagonists had to be female, which one should it be? I don't think it would work for Michael because his entire character can be summed up with "mid-life crisis", and it could theoretically work for Franklin, but what about Trevor? If you didn't change anything about his personality, actions or mannerisms, just made him female, how good would that be?

As well know, not only are there not enough female protagonists out there, but there aren't enough that break the moulds of 'safe' characterisation. They're all conventionally attractive, very few of them have dark or grey morality, and the ones that are are mostly player-created avatars like the Saints Row boss. If Trevor had been female, and just as ugly, despicable and manic as he is now, it could probably have been one of the most unique female protagonists out there.
I'd like to introduce you to someone who would make for, IMO, a fantastic DLC plot because she's in the game, and a criminal!
http://gta.wikia.com/Taliana_Martinez

Easily overlooked, and kinda hard to get,and very under-utilized.

She might not end up as a rise to the top sort (But hey, things can happen to change that), but I'd kinda settle for being a wheel woman. I don't believe she's only in it for the money since her take's extremely low.
 

Kingjackl

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Jamash said:
Out of all the GTA V protagonists, Trevor is the one who would be least suited to a gender swap.

Take his opening scene where's he's fucking Ashley then curb stomps Johnny, destroys the lost and intimidates a high ranking member of the Varrios Los Aztecas.

Would you have a female Trevor fucking Ashley with a strap on? Would Johnny be as angry about a lesbian having sex with his woman and would he be intimidated and back down, then get beaten to death by a women? Would the traditionally misogynist groups like The Lost and Aztecas have as much respect for a woman and thus be fearful of and intimidated by a female Trevor, irrespective of how crazy they are?

A lot of Trevor's issues stem from his childhood and relationship with his mother. It just wouldn't be the same if a female took issues with a mother who made them wear dresses, nor would be the same if the female Trevor was forced to dress like a boy by a gigolo stripper father.

The random switch scenes where Trevor wakes up in a dress would just fall flat if it was a women who suddenly woke up wearing trousers and a shirt... unless you emphasised that this was a crazy act of cross-dressing by limiting her normal wardrobe to stereotypically female attire like dresses, skirts and blouses.

What about the story arc where Trevor falls for Patricia Madrozo (who bears a resemblance to his mother) and white knight rescues her from Martin, forcing Trevor and Michael to go into exile. Would you just make Patricia suddenly bisexual, or would you swap their genders around too and have it so it's a female Mexican crime lord called Martina Madrozo who has her meek husband Patrick stolen by Trevoretta? Would the story work with Martin Madrozo also being female... which could affect the gender of his girlfriend, which would also has a knock on effect of changing the gender of the Tennis coach who was sleeping with Michael's wife, who would also possibly need change genders along with Michael himself unless we apply Skyrim levels of bisexuality to most of the key characters.

Some of Trevor's Strangers and Freaks missions revolve around him being male, like when he's mistaken for the actor Jock Cranley, or is offered sex with the wife of someone in returns for favours. Swapping genders in that case to have her mistaken for a female Arnold Schwarzenegger parody or doing favours for a woman who is pimping out her husband just wouldn't be the same and would seem odd (male sex trafficking by women just isn't as much of a recognisable thing or stigma).

Even minor facets to his personality and conversations wouldn't be the same, like the question of his bisexuality and subsequence conversation with Franklin and LaMar. His "any hole's goal" attitude towards sex and the penetrating act of dominance wouldn't be present if he was a bisexual woman, nor would it be such an issue and talking point with Franklin and LaMar, since female bisexuality is a lot more accepted and almost expected.

How would his alpha male relationship with Ron, Wade and Floyd work if he was female? A female Trevor convincing Ron to leave his wife and making Ron distrustful of woman... because a woman told him so? What about when he consoles Floyd about having a small penis by showing Floyd his vagina... then goes undercover as a female dockworker in an all male environment?

Changing Trevor's gender wouldn't be such a simple task and would require complete rewrites of many aspects of the story and supporting characters, or if nothing else was changed, it would have the effect of a lot of things not making sense... a gritty realistic crime drama where sexual dimorphism, sexism and misogyny exists in the world, except in the case of Trevoretta, who everyone just pretends is a man and who acts like a voracious lesbian. It would be as odd as changing Franklin to a white man but not changing the race and ethnicity of any of this family, friends or background and still have story dialogue making many references to him being black.
Okay, clearly you put a lot more thought into that particular flight of fantasy than I did. I haven't played the game in a while, so I don't remember all the details. What I was thinking is that Trevor is already characterised as bisexual, so you wouldn't have to change his behaviour too much, just the other characters reactions to it. I think if you can bring across how psychotic and dangerous she is, then the audience can buy all these male characters being intimidated by her.

Honestly, I just think it would be a good experiment to see if a character like that can be pulled off as a woman. Either way, he's a disgusting character that I know a lot of people were uncomfortable with, it would be interesting to see what reactions he would get if he were female.
 

Pogilrup

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Artaneius said:
Why do I have the feeling that this topic was just made to prove an agenda type point?
I'll admit I do see it as an accomplishment where one fools the critics into praising a character that's a mass murdering criminal.

Captcha: riff-raff
 

Netrigan

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FieryTrainwreck said:
Netrigan said:
Well, you seem to be under the delusion that I'm trying to equate all these things.
You said "I don't see a difference" (which screams equation to me) right off the bat, so I kind of resent the notion that I'm operating under a delusion when you created the premise.

You may call it reductive, but the underlying principle is pretty much the same in either case. You see something you don't like, you air your criticism, the point of the criticism is to get someone in a position of power to respond to your complaint. From the smallest most asinine complaint to the most important thing ever, complaining is a way of attempting to fix a perceived problem.
I'm sure the brain chemistry is even very similar. But the value of the complaints is not automatically the same - not in terms of their value to the environment and the actors within. I think a well-reasoned complaint deserves a groundswell of support and serious consideration from those in power. I think a bullshit or inaccurate complaint deserves a critical response but not serious consideration, and the volume of the complainer really shouldn't factor into the proceedings at all.

In every case, it's possible for someone to work their way up through the system and change it from within. In fact, many a career has been started by people who said, "fuck this, I could make a better electric razor than this." But whenever someone tells someone else to do that, they're telling them to shut up.
Again, I think there's a chasm of difference between criticism based on mechanical design and functionality and criticism based on more subjective and thematic content. Also, if you research a razor and find claims that it won't shave your face very well, do you buy it anyways and complain? Or do you seek out other razors? And if literally no one makes the sort of razor you need, do you sourly criticize all the razors admirably servicing the majority of the market place? Or do you see about finding someone who will make you and people like you the razors you desire?

In a nutshell: if people perceive a gap in the market, it doesn't fall on existing producers to fill that gap. Yelling at them to do so is lazy, selfish, and frequently counterproductive. Support the stuff you like, ignore the stuff you don't. The way some people talk, I'm convinced they won't be happy (and won't stop crusading) until literally every game somehow revolves around (or pays homage to) their worldview. That's not how a free market place of ideas is supposed to work. There will *always* be games and other media that portray things some people won't like or enjoy, and trying to shame or criticize them out of existence isn't progressive. It's fascist.
Seeing as you keep flipping this around to "why should I listen to the person complaining", I think this is where the breakdown in communication is at. Complaining is about becoming a squeaky wheel wanting oil.

The person on the other end can make up his mind if he wants to listen to you or not. In the case of the Social Criticism and the Video Game Industry, they've been listening for a very long time. They pay far more attention to market forces and with the money involved they're perhaps overly-cautious, but they have been pushing toward the same sort of things in those videos. The creators of Borderlands and Saints Row have said as much. And, let's face it, she ain't saying nothing we Gamers haven't been saying for ages. And part of the reason her voice is amplified is so many people who hate her start thread after thread after thread after thread criticizing her, wanting her to shut up, and any gamers who kind of agree with her that the industry could be doing a better job suddenly become noisier than they usually are because they think this stuff is important, too.

And there is, in fact, a gap in the market which many Indie Developers have been filling. There's a fair number of people who care about this sort of thing which do have the skills to go into game development... and they do.

Does the game industry have to listen to any of these people? No... but they are. They have been for a very long time because the amount of money on the table means they need to make sure these games appeal to the widest possible audience and they're not looking to piss anyone off. They're not taking her comments as proof of anything, but I guarantee they're looking at the discussion, seeing what issues Gamers really care about and incorporating elements of that conversation into their game design. Maybe the makers of Far Cry 4 decide not to include prostitutes because they realize they didn't actually do anything interesting with them in Far Cry 3. Maybe the next game developers who decides to use a strip club as a major location decides to make a stripper a major character in the game, so we get a semi-realistic peek behind the curtain to see the type of lives these women lead. Or take the damsel video, The Last of Us featured a character-switching sequence so when Ellie is captured, it's not about rescuing Ellie, it's about Ellie mostly saving herself... and it's pretty much the best damn part of the game.

So, no, I don't believe in the nightmare scenario you seem to paint. Because the people listening to her criticism probably aren't going to be total idiots about it. Kind of like when The Escapist decided to listen to the complaints of the GG movement and tightened up their reporting standards. They largely ignored the political aspects (and will likely continue to do so) and focused on the criticisms they thought were not only valid, but worth correcting.
 

likalaruku

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My very first thought was "Play AS Carmen Sandiego."

I'm going to chime in with Saint's Row.
 

MrFalconfly

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Well it would be nice to see a game based on the universe of "Forbrydelsen" (The Killing to our English-speaking comrades), or "Borgen" (The Castle, or The Government), or maybe Broen (The Bridge).

A game based on some dark Scandi-drama (I dunno about you, but I'm getting tired of the usual US-Mexican bordertown crime-lord thing. Why not place the crime-syndicate in the midst of somewhere you wont expect it?).
 

Dragonlayer

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Dec 5, 2013
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Bad Jim said:
Pogilrup said:
I really want to see more stories about a woman taking revenge on a world that has cheated her out of... everything. Even if it is borderline satire.
You could play Evil Genius. There are three supervillians to choose from, one of which is female. Unfortunately they only differ by a few stats rather than having unique stories. But you can kidnap and torture people, build a doomsday device, create hideous monsters and (gasp) play as a woman.

EDIT
I totally forgot about the Starcraft 2 expansion Heart of the Swarm. It actually has a real story with a female protagonist building up a massive army of monstrous creatures called Zerg and invading human worlds. It is also a revenge story, against Arcturus Mengsk, who you were fighting for in the original Starcraft until he abandoned you to the Zerg.
The female evil genius also gets arguably the most useful bonus: sexualised male bodyguards an influence radius twice as large as normal. Normally I have to steal all kinds of uber loot and carefully position them in key rooms for maximum inspiration, but with Alexis (I think her name was) you can just park her at one end of a room and have her sheer presence keep the hapless minions working until they drop dead from exhaustion.
 

VVThoughtBox

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Rebel_Raven said:
VVThoughtBox said:
zen5887 said:
I was really let down by GTA5 in this department. I feel like they missed a golden opportunity to throw something interesting into the mix. The GTA games have been pretty good with diversity in other games but still no women?
None of the female characters of GTA V had reasons or motives to get into organized crime. Molly is just helping Devin Weston screw over people legally and has no goals of her own, Tanisha broke up with Franklin because she wants to get out of the hood and doesn't want to be associated with a criminal. Amanda already has large amounts of money through Micheal's bank robberies and her daughter Tracy just wants to be a TV-star. Paige is only in it for the money, and Taliana is just a mix of money and she owes the MC for saving her life. Even if one of these characters were part of a gang like the Ballas, or Grove Street, it would be all for nothing. Most of the game is spent trying to convince the player that a private military contractor like Not-Blackwater is somehow way more evil than street gangs. The street gangs of Today aren't as powerful as they were back in San Andreas, most likely because there's no corrupt cop empowering them with weapons, money and drugs.
Kingjackl said:
I was thinking, if one of the GTAV protagonists had to be female, which one should it be? I don't think it would work for Michael because his entire character can be summed up with "mid-life crisis", and it could theoretically work for Franklin, but what about Trevor? If you didn't change anything about his personality, actions or mannerisms, just made him female, how good would that be?

As well know, not only are there not enough female protagonists out there, but there aren't enough that break the moulds of 'safe' characterisation. They're all conventionally attractive, very few of them have dark or grey morality, and the ones that are are mostly player-created avatars like the Saints Row boss. If Trevor had been female, and just as ugly, despicable and manic as he is now, it could probably have been one of the most unique female protagonists out there.
I'd like to introduce you to someone who would make for, IMO, a fantastic DLC plot because she's in the game, and a criminal!
http://gta.wikia.com/Taliana_Martinez

Easily overlooked, and kinda hard to get,and very under-utilized.

She might not end up as a rise to the top sort (But hey, things can happen to change that), but I'd kinda settle for being a wheel woman. I don't believe she's only in it for the money since her take's extremely low.
I think that Lamar is far more deserving of being a playable character than Taliana. His story would flesh him out a little more and can potential serve as a good foil to Franklin. Taliana wouldn't work as a main character because then the developers would have to tie her into the central plot somehow. Off the top of my head, her missions would most likely have to take place sometime before "Mr. Phillips." and after "Complications".
 

Rebel_Raven

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VVThoughtBox said:
I think that Lamar is far more deserving of being a playable character than Taliana. His story would flesh him out a little more and can potential serve as a good foil to Franklin. Taliana wouldn't work as a main character because then the developers would have to tie her into the central plot somehow. Off the top of my head, her missions would most likely have to take place sometime before "Mr. Phillips." and after "Complications".
I don't see how it'd be hard to tie her in because if you play your cards right, she -is- in the main plot, and well worth having!
Have us play through her established story (And maybe a bit more like learning getaway driving, and getting her car of choice in order?) up until she meets Franklin, then her time spent between meeting Franklin, and the heist, then preparing for the heist, then the heist, then afterwards, maybe free-play, driving missions where you are the wheel woman, making money, get some properties, maybe someone she cares about gets into trouble, then she has to use her talents to get them out of trouble. She could probably hang out with people, some more than others depending on how things pan out. Heck, it practically writes itself. At the least, story boards itself.

Either railroad her involvement in the heist, or have a plot about her being left out of it. Maybe have a branching where she gets found by someone else if the save file doesn't have her found on it. Yeah, there's a couple of branches but they could be pretty minor as far as impact in the overall plot.

She has a lot of potential, and I'm almost absolutely certain R* will squander/ignore it coz they seem to have something against playable female protagonists. <.< Even in GTAO, women just aren't complete having the same hooker animations as guys, and getting charged for hushsmush, and stuff.
Oni's probably the closest they ever got, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's as close as they ever get. I'll just be hugely disappointed.

I'm not saying Lamar should, or shouldn't get DLC. I wouldn't be surprised if he did.
 

Pogilrup

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Ok let's see how good I am at writing dialogue for a cutscene:

"So how did this part of my life begin? Well, I worked for under-minimum wage for a shithead butt touching boss. Of course he was willing to give raises and promotions from time to time. To boys that is. I've been at this job for around 10 years and not a single promotion nor single fucking cent was added to my salary. So after getting hit by glass ceiling for the last time, I decided to go postal on that walk pile of shit, robbed the company, and started my new career towards the good life."

Yeah I would probably want someone else to write this. It is just too cliched.
 

lechat

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i'm sure most everyone has scrubbed the game from their minds but you are looking for catwoman......
 

Treeberry

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Has anyone mentioned Stolen? It's available for PC, PS2 and Xbox. The protagonist is a female thief however she can't kill people.

The first GTA game had eight playable progtagonists, half of which were male and half which were female.

You can also play as Haruka in Yakuza 5 in addition to playing male Yakuza. And it doesn't have an English translation.

None of these are really what you're after though. :/

Other than those and the the latest Saints Row games I can't name any. Time to do some research...
 

SweetShark

Shark Girls are my Waifus
Jan 9, 2012
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I am very sure there will be a otome game which you play a female crime overlord who f*ck all the time grunts and drug dealers.