I would like to know the overall history/story of the Three Kingdoms era of China.

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Because honestly I have absolutely no idea about the stories and characters involved in this era of China.

I never even played the Dynasty Warriors games as a kid growing up, (although I was familiar with it) and I feel I have completely missed out because people refer to Three Kingdoms as if it was common knowledge.

So to anyone willing to indulge me, explain to me the story and charcaters involved of the Three Kingdoms era of China, and I need to learn once Total War: Three Kingdoms comes out because I don't know what is at stake here, you can even offer me videos of such.

And before you ask, no in my classes I barely touched any topics concerning Chinese history, even when it was offered.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

How accurate do you want to be about it?

Seriously, there was an awesome Chinese tv series that you can watch on Youtube for free that is .... well, it is considered more so a romanticism of what actually happened given that itwas adapted by multiple historical accounts of the era, and if there is one thing you should know is that theChinese had an 'interesting' idea orconception of 'benevolence'.

But the cool thing about this tv series is that it covers in incredible depth the political maneuvers that were happening in the background.

Plus Chen Jianban is a fucking amazing actor ... like, best portrayal of Cao Cao. But it's also a tv program that highlights the religious and cultural backdrop of the setting of the time. Plus a surprisingly epic opening intro.

It covers more than the TKE just to be certain. Everything from the political machinations inthe background with Cao Cao and the ministers when he was appointed to the court by Dong Zhuo, as wellas Cao Cao's attempted to assassination of him, to him fleeing into the countryside, all the way to the establishment of the Jin.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

How accurate do you want to be about it?

Seriously, there was an awesome Chinese tv series that you can watch on Youtube for free that is .... well, it is considered more so a romanticism of what actually happened given that itwas adapted by multiple historical accounts of the era, and if there is one thing you should know is that theChinese had an 'interesting' idea orconception of 'benevolence'.

But the cool thing about this tv series is that it covers in incredible depth the political maneuvers that were happening in the background.

Plus Chen Jianban is a fucking amazing actor ... like, best portrayal of Cao Cao. But it's also a tv program that highlights the religious and cultural backdrop of the setting of the time. Plus a surprisingly epic opening intro.

On the safe side, you can explain to me the story from the "Romance" perspective, since the "Historical" one is very muddied.

Like for one I wanna no who's that Fat Warlord that I think Lu Bu takes orders from. Because I feel he is the central 'villain' in all of this.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

On the safe side, you can explain to me the story from the "Romance" perspective, since the "Historical" one is very muddied.

Like for one I wanna no who's that Fat Warlord that I think Lu Bu takes orders from. Because I feel he is the central 'villain' in all of this.

Not really a central villain of the 3K era.

Dong Zhuo was a warlord who had effectively consolidated a series of highly adept generals by his side and was directly manipulaing the court at the capital of Luo Yang as effectively a Prime Minister would.

He was effectively the most powerful man in Han China, with a well equipped and experienced army.

Dong Zhuo shouldn't be seen as a villain per se. He was just another warlord, and he was the guy that overthrew the (historically) 12 Eunuchs that came to dominate courtly affairs. This was known as the time of the Ten Eunuchs, but you know ... there was actually 12. He did overthrow one court, but ... ehhh. Like all of this actually really begins with a series of revolts against an already diminishing and corrupt court.

 

[Saelune]

I mean, as much as they are fantasy based on a fictionalized and biased novel based on the historical events, the Dynasty Warriors games are actually a pretty good intro to the period, and they almost always have an encyclopedia section with more accurate info. I definitely know way more names cause of those games than I could if I just learned it in a classroom.


So, to start, the Han Dynasty was falling apart, lots of civil war, lots of unhappy common folk, and then Zhang Jiao, a mystic who preached about 'The Way of Peace' and united a ton of unhappy peasants into the Yellow Turbans (or Yellow Scarves) which rebelled against the Han government. Though they were quashed by a coalition of notable and eventually notable figures, such as Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Sun Jian, Dong Zhuo, etc, it really expedited the collapse.



Bunch of Unics in high position of power abuse it, piss off the Yuan family (Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu), they (the unics) get killed off, but this lets Dong Zhuo make off with The Emperor and again, makes everything terrible, eventually leading to another major coalition formed by Cao Cao but lead by Yuan Shao to stop him. Again, bunch of notable figures unite, again Cao Cao, Liu Bei (though still not famous at all yet), Sun Jian (who did alot of heroic things during this but they often get attributed to Guan Yu instead), Yuan Shu, though they fail in actually stopping Dong Zhuo or saving the emperor, though Sun Jian finds the Seal of the Emperor which is important later.


Lu Bu eventually betrays Dong Zhuo, killing him, but he gets chased away by the rest of Dong Zhuo's forces lead by Guo Si so he goes and wanders for a bit, eventually causing some chaos and trouble for Liu Bei, Cao Cao and Yuan Shu.


During this time, Sun Jian dies and Sun Ce, his eldest son takes over, uses the Seal to get troops from Yuan Shu and to get Shu off his back, Yuan Shu proclaims he is Emperor, some consider it legitimate, some dont, but Sun Ce goes on to conquer a ton of South East China before dying and passing power to Sun Quan, his younger brother.


Meanwhile Cao Cao and Yuan Shao are fighting for control of the north, with Liu Bei caught in the middle (he is on Shao's side, but Guan Yu got stuck helping Cao Cao, but they unite and abandon both sides eventually). Cao Cao defeats Yuan Shao at Guan Du, major victory for him, Shao dies, and his forces either join Cao, or hide north with his 3 sons who Cao eventually destroys as well.


Liu Bei flees from Cao Cao who is chasing him down, eventually seeking an alliance with Sun Quan with the aid of his new strategist Zhuge Liang. This leads to the battle of Chi Bi, which the combined forces of Liu Bei and Sun Quan defeat Cao Cao despite Cao's greater naval forces, this is a major blow to him which lets Sun Quan expand and Liu Bei goes and takes over central China, though this ends up causing conflict with him and Sun.


Liu Bei eventually conqueres what was then western China, taking over his relatives lands Meanwhile Cao Cao is asserting control over northern and north-western China, and Sun Quan is dealing with his region. At this point, I forget the specific order of events, but Cao Cao eventually becomes 'King of Wei', Liu Bei takes over Han Zhong which emulates his ancestor and founder of the Han Dynasty, Liu Bang and he declares himself King.


Cao Cao dies, his son Cao Pi takes over, forces the Emperor that Cao Cao had been maintaining control of to abdicate, Cao Pi declares himself Emperor, so Liu Bei and Sun Quan also declare themselves Emperor, and this officially starts the 'Three Kingdoms' period proper.


From this point its a whole lot of stalemating. Ugh, forgot to mention the Battle of Fan Castle, where Wei and Wu united to stop Guan Yu in central China, resulting in his death, enraging Liu Bei and causing his alliance with Wu to fall apart, leading to a disasterous battle in Yi Ling, with Liu Bei dying shortly after, control of Shu going to his son Liu Shan, though much of the power was with Zhuge Liang. Shu and Wu would maintain an uneasy alliance for much of the rest of this time, but never really trusting eachother.


Shu and Wei would fight alot in the north, but neither getting much headway, eventually Zhuge Liang would pass, giving chancelorship to Jiang Wei, a controversial figure. Meanwhile, Liu Shan was being manipualted by a court unic, and this plus Jiang Wei's inability to invade Wei kept Shu from growing much.


After that, Cao Pi dies and his son Cao Rui takes over, he is terrible but then he dies and then rulership just changes from Cao to Cao while the Sima family slowly takes over. Alot of backdoor politics, betrayal and manipulation eventually leads to the Sima Family controlling much of Wei, they eventually defeat Shu, capture Liu Shan who surrenders, though Jiang Wei continues to cause minor conflicts, and a ton of poor leadership in Wu also leads to the Simas toppling Wu under Sima Zhao, with Zhao's son, Sima Yan becoming the first Emperor or Jin, ending the Three Kingdoms period.

This is just a summary, mostly from memory, so do not take my word for law, I skipped a bunch, probably neglected a ton of important stuff even for a summary, and got some things mixed up. But its something.

 

[Saelune]

How accurate do you want to be about it?

Seriously, there was an awesome Chinese tv series that you can watch on Youtube for free that is .... well, it is considered more so a romanticism of what actually happened given that itwas adapted by multiple historical accounts of the era, and if there is one thing you should know is that theChinese had an 'interesting' idea orconception of 'benevolence'.

But the cool thing about this tv series is that it covers in incredible depth the political maneuvers that were happening in the background.

Plus Chen Jianban is a fucking amazing actor ... like, best portrayal of Cao Cao. But it's also a tv program that highlights the religious and cultural backdrop of the setting of the time. Plus a surprisingly epic opening intro.

On the safe side, you can explain to me the story from the "Romance" perspective, since the "Historical" one is very muddied.

Like for one I wanna no who's that Fat Warlord that I think Lu Bu takes orders from. Because I feel he is the central 'villain' in all of this.

Well, some notable 'romance' stuff would be Diao Chan convincing Lu Bu to betray Dong Zhuo, since she probably did not exist. A lot of romanticizing of Shu, and Liu Bei and Guan Yu in particular. Guan Yu gets credit for a lot of things others did, especially Sun Jian during Hu Lao.


Zhuge Liang also gets a lot of extra praise while Sima Yi is vilified, though Yi would ultimately come out victorious technically.


Ma Chao also gets some, since historically he attacked Cao Cao which made Cao Cao kill his whole family though the story is usually that Ma Chao attacked Cao Cao BECAUSE he killed his whole family.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Ok now I have to ask some deeper questions because I am noticing the words Eunachs being tossed around often in regards to Chinese History?

And I know what eunachs are.

 

[Saelune]

Ok now I have to ask some deeper questions because I am noticing the words Eunachs being tossed around often in regards to Chinese History?

And I know what eunachs are.

Thanks, I knew I was spelling it wrong but could not remember what the fuck the spelling was.


Eunuchs were very common in Chinese court, and it was how many men attempted to rise in power. The idea was by being unable to have offspring, they wont be motivated to seek long term power, like say, someone wanting to establish a dynasty might.

It also was a common punishment.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Ok now I have to ask some deeper questions because I am noticing the words Eunachs being tossed around often in regards to Chinese History?

And I know what eunachs are.

The eunuchs in the story were involved in a plot to overthrow the then Emperor Shao. Of which Dong Zhuo, a minor warlord, in tandem with Yuan Shao managed to safeguard. They're known as the 'Ten Eunuchs' or the 'Ten Attendants' but as I was saying, there were actually twelve but IDK ... maybe they were rounding down or whatever?

To be fair, '12' requires an additional character. So maybe they were just saving on bamboo sleeves and ink? <.<

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

In the end which faction "Won" the entire wars of the Three Kingdoms era?

Because if I am gonna play Total War: Three Kingdoms I prefer to play the faction that historically "won" in the end.

Such as playing as The Empire in Warhammer (Yes I know about the End Times, but bare with me)

Rome in Rome II

Tokugawa Clan in Shogun II.

"Technically" England in Medieval 2.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

In the end which faction in the end "Won" the entire wars of the Three Kingdoms era?

Because if I am gonna play Total War: Three Kingdoms I prefer to play the faction that historically "won" in the end.

Such as playing as The Empire in Warhammer.

Rome in Rome II

Tokugawa Clan in Shogun II.

"Technically" England in Medieval 2.

The Jin ultimately manage to circumvent whatever traditional fealties and alliances born to the powerful dynastic roots Cao Cao managed to establish in the North and eventually quelled whatever power plays there would be through a series of vassalages that managed to piece together a somewhat peace.

It wouldn't be a very long one.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

In the end which faction in the end "Won" the entire wars of the Three Kingdoms era?

Because if I am gonna play Total War: Three Kingdoms I prefer to play the faction that historically "won" in the end.

Such as playing as The Empire in Warhammer.

Rome in Rome II

Tokugawa Clan in Shogun II.

"Technically" England in Medieval 2.

The Jin ultimately manage to circumvent whatever traditional fealties and alliances born to the powerful dynastic roots Cao Cao managed to establish in the North and eventually quelled whatever power plays there would be through a series of vassalages that managed to piece together a somewhat peace.

It wouldn't be a very long one.

Were the figures that would compose the Jin Dynasty already around and active just after the fall of the Han Dynasty?

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Were the figures that would compose the Jin Dynasty already around and active just after the fall of the Han Dynasty?

Ummm... yes ... quite a few. There was an advisor to Cao Cao himself but I forget his name. Zhongda?

 

[Saelune]

In the end which faction in the end "Won" the entire wars of the Three Kingdoms era?

Because if I am gonna play Total War: Three Kingdoms I prefer to play the faction that historically "won" in the end.

Such as playing as The Empire in Warhammer.

Rome in Rome II

Tokugawa Clan in Shogun II.

"Technically" England in Medieval 2.

The Jin ultimately manage to circumvent whatever traditional fealties and alliances born to the powerful dynastic roots Cao Cao managed to establish in the North and eventually quelled whatever power plays there would be through a series of vassalages that managed to piece together a somewhat peace.

It wouldn't be a very long one.

Were the figures that would compose the Jin Dynasty already around and active just after the fall of the Han Dynasty?

I do not know how long the game will go, but the historical period that matters is over 100 years of time, though much of the focus is from around 180 to the 220-230's, ie the life spans of people like Liu Bei, Cao Cao, Cao Pi, and Sun Quan.

 

[Saelune]

Were the figures that would compose the Jin Dynasty already around and active just after the fall of the Han Dynasty?

Ummm... yes ... quite a few. There was an advisor to Cao Cao himself but I forget his name. Zhongda?

I started with Dynasty Warriors, then looked into the proper history on my own, so I go with those names, but I notice you tend to use courtesy names more instead, so I am curious where your own knowledge came from?

(For those curious, Zhongda = Sima Yi)

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

In the end which faction in the end "Won" the entire wars of the Three Kingdoms era?

Because if I am gonna play Total War: Three Kingdoms I prefer to play the faction that historically "won" in the end.

Such as playing as The Empire in Warhammer.

Rome in Rome II

Tokugawa Clan in Shogun II.

"Technically" England in Medieval 2.

The Jin ultimately manage to circumvent whatever traditional fealties and alliances born to the powerful dynastic roots Cao Cao managed to establish in the North and eventually quelled whatever power plays there would be through a series of vassalages that managed to piece together a somewhat peace.

It wouldn't be a very long one.

Were the figures that would compose the Jin Dynasty already around and active just after the fall of the Han Dynasty?

I do not know how long the game will go, but the historical period that matters is over 100 years of time, though much of the focus is from around 180 to the 220-230's, ie the life spans of people like Liu Bei, Cao Cao, Cao Pi, and Sun Quan.

I will say this, I am gonna play as the Dong Zhao/Lu Bu faction in this game, because they look more memorable and interesting:

How often do I get to play as a fat warlord? And looking at these 2 and their story gives me Darth Vader and Palpatine vibes...

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I started with Dynasty Warriors, then looked into the proper history on my own, so I go with those names, but I notice you tend to use courtesy names more instead, so I am curious where your own knowledge came from?

(For those curious, Zhongda = Sima Yi)

My first degree was a trip major. History, Psychology, Sociology. And some ofthe courses I took to complete the necessary prerequisites of that trip major were East Asian history. Australia is in the Asia Pacific region, and have a large influx of scholars about the region that come here to study, so the number of Asia Pacific-centric courses naturally emulate that geographical setting. Or at least in Sydney, that is.

That being said the Dynasty Warriors games fuckwith your heada lot of the time. Cao Cao wasnot king of the bastards. Seriously ... he wasn't that bad a guy to work for (if taken with the time and place he was in).

On the flipside Xuande was kind of a prick. As I was saying before, the Chinese had a funny idea of 'benevolence' ...

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I will say this, I am gonna play as the Dong Zhao/Lu Bu faction in this game, because they look more memorable and interesting:

How often do I get to play as a fat warlord? And looking at these 2 and their story gives me Darth Vader and Palpatine vibes...

Him being painted as rotund and gross is likely an attempt to paint him as incompetent, and further scandalize the fact that he was likely bedding the emperor's consorts. He was actually a skilled combatant when younger which would suggest a certain degree of physical fitness... and while he might have been rotund later in life, it was likely an exaggeration to paint him as unworthy of the skillful generals he had assembled under his banner.

He was an actual soldier's soldier. Someone of physical presence and capability, and was also capable of leading his Qiang cadres with precision.

And unlike many nobles of his time, he knew how to work the land and beasts of burden.

It's kind of a shame that they seem to be portraying him in such a light. I would have thought the TW guys might have erred on the side of caution to accurate portrayal. This guy was honour guard, after all. He learnt to sleep in his armour.

That sound like someone who was physically unfit to you? I have a sneaking suspicion that his largeness might have been an expression of the fact that he often wore his heavy armour. I can't comment about how ancient Chinese armour would realistically look... but I can comment on how my gear looked on me when I was serving.

Not exactly built to compliment my physique, 'bulky and large' would be more accurate. Of which back then I could perform a 'stomp' (loaded march) with the equivalent of nearly another person on my shoulders in terms of carried weight. The idea of sleeping in something like modular tactical armour would be undesirable. So if the stories are true that he practically never took it off even well past middle aged... hats off to him. I can't imagine anybody not physically fit doing that, just walking around in it as per daily life. Much less sleeping in it.

So, you know... take it with a grain of salt if they're depicting him like this.

 

[Saelune]

I started with Dynasty Warriors, then looked into the proper history on my own, so I go with those names, but I notice you tend to use courtesy names more instead, so I am curious where your own knowledge came from?

(For those curious, Zhongda = Sima Yi)

My first degree was a trip major. History, Psychology, Sociology. And some ofthe courses I took to complete the necessary prerequisites of that trip major were East Asian history. Australia is in the Asia Pacific region, and have a large influx of scholars about the region that come here to study, so the number of Asia Pacific-centric courses naturally emulate that geographical setting. Or at least in Sydney, that is.

That being said the Dynasty Warriors games fuckwith your heada lot of the time. Cao Cao wasnot king of the bastards. Seriously ... he wasn't that bad a guy to work for (if taken with the time and place he was in).

On the flipside Xuande was kind of a prick. As I was saying before, the Chinese had a funny idea of 'benevolence' ...

The more recent games, atleast since DW6 have started to do more nuanced interpretations of the characters, typically playing as one kingdom will glorify itself and vilify its enemies, so when you play as Wei, Cao Cao comes off way better and Liu Bei much worse. Even Lu Bu has been given some sympathetic interpretations when you play as his side. Only Dong Zhuo remains purely evil anymore.

 

[Saelune]

I will say this, I am gonna play as the Dong Zhao/Lu Bu faction in this game, because they look more memorable and interesting:

How often do I get to play as a fat warlord? And looking at these 2 and their story gives me Darth Vader and Palpatine vibes...

Him being painted as rotund and gross is likely an attempt to paint him as incompetent, and further scandalize the fact that he was likely bedding the emperor's consorts. He was actually a skilled combatant when younger which would suggest a certain degree of physical fitness... and while he might have been rotund later in life, it was likely an exaggeration to paint him as unworthy of the skillful generals he had assembled under his banner.

He was an actual soldier's soldier. Someone of physical presence and capability, and was also capable of leading his Qiang cadres with precision.

And unlike many nobles of his time, he knew how to work the land and beasts of burden.

It's kind of a shame that they seem to be portraying him in such a light. I would have thought the TW guys might have erred on the side of caution to accurate portrayal. This guy was honour guard, after all. He learnt to sleep in his armour.

That sound like someone who was physically unfit to you? I have a sneaking suspicion that his largeness might have been an expression of the fact that he often wore his heavy armour. I can't comment about how ancient Chinese armour would realistically look... but I can comment on how my gear looked on me when I was serving.

Not exactly built to compliment my physique, 'bulky and large' would be more accurate. Of which back then I could perform a 'stomp' (loaded march) with the equivalent of nearly another person on my shoulders in terms of carried weight. The idea of sleeping in something like modular tactical armour would be undesirable. So if the stories are true that he practically never took it off even well past middle aged... hats off to him. I can't imagine anybody not physically fit doing that, just walking around in it as per daily life. Much less sleeping in it.

So, you know... take it with a grain of salt if they're depicting him like this.

Him being fat is due to him being portrayed as decadent, loving food, wine, women and money more than the people he lords over. I think it is less that he is fat cause they are saying he is unable to fight, and just that he taxes everyone for food.