I would like to know the overall history/story of the Three Kingdoms era of China.

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Him being fat is due to him being portrayed as decadent, loving food, wine, women and money more than the people he lords over. I think it is less that he is fat cause they are saying he is unable to fight, and just that he taxes everyone for food.

Decadent, etc yeah... but it's not true. Or at least not as true as many of the nobles of his time.

The more recent games, atleast since DW6 have started to do more nuanced interpretations of the characters, typically playing as one kingdom will glorify itself and vilify its enemies, so when you play as Wei, Cao Cao comes off way better and Liu Bei much worse. Even Lu Bu has been given some sympathetic interpretations when you play as his side. Only Dong Zhuo remains purely evil anymore.

Ehh... I've been mostly playing the spin offs myself. I didn't mind the old Romance of the Three Kingdom games. If only because they often were funny AF. My China-wide adventuring, foul-mouthed academic who belonged to no faction just insulting people in debates everytime they came to me seeking an 'intellectual' challenge.

All with the ridiculously over the top arenas and flashy effects.

 

[Hades]

I think you're kinda out of luck in this regard. Chinese history isn't really big in the west and its easy to get the novel and the history confused with each other. I think Saelune covered the general gist of important names and events.

 

[Hades]

In the end which faction "Won" the entire wars of the Three Kingdoms era?

Because if I am gonna play Total War: Three Kingdoms I prefer to play the faction that historically "won" in the end.

Such as playing as The Empire in Warhammer (Yes I know about the End Times, but bare with me)

Rome in Rome II

Tokugawa Clan in Shogun II.

"Technically" England in Medieval 2.

I'd argue the Tokugawa didn't really win their period. Japan was conquered and unified by the Toyotomi clan which sadly wasn't playable in Shogun II. The Tokugawa just happened to rob the Toyotomi heir after its leader died.

The Tokugawa didn't win the battle but stabbed a knife in the victor's back and ran away with the trophy.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

In the end which faction "Won" the entire wars of the Three Kingdoms era?

Because if I am gonna play Total War: Three Kingdoms I prefer to play the faction that historically "won" in the end.

Such as playing as The Empire in Warhammer (Yes I know about the End Times, but bare with me)

Rome in Rome II

Tokugawa Clan in Shogun II.

"Technically" England in Medieval 2.

I'd argue the Tokugawa didn't really win their period. Japan was conquered and unified by the Toyotomi clan which sadly wasn't playable in Shogun II. The Tokugawa just happened to rob the Toyotomi heir after its leader died.

The Tokugawa didn't win the battle but stabbed a knife in the victor's back and ran away with the trophy.

At least the leader of the Tokugawa in Shogun II had the coolest looking helmet:

 

[jademunky]

Because honestly I have absolutely no idea about the stories and characters involved in this era of China.

Hoo boy, the book is like 1100 pages long and I only got through half of it.

I don't even know where to begin explaining it all. Just think Game of Thrones with hermaphroditic chickens. (Yes really)

 

[ChupathingyX]

If you want some good historical sources I'd strongly recommend checking out Prof. Rafe de Crespigny's (one of the leading western historians on the Three Kingdoms) stuff, some of which can be viewed for free here [https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/html/1885/42048/index.html].

Generals of the South in particular is a great look into the Wu forces.

Also, when it comes to mixing up historical and romantic characters/events, I'd recommend using this handy website [http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/]. You can look up individual people and see a neat little "fact vs. fiction" section which is very useful, especially if you intend on playing any Three Kingdoms video game or watching the 2010 TV series, as they all tend to mix history with fiction.

Also, when looking up historical biographies, if it's available, always use the Sanguozhi (Records of the Three Kingdoms) over Sanguo Yanyi (Romance of the Three Kingdoms) biograpies. The Sanguozhi (SGZ) was written by Chen Shou, who lived through a part of the Three Kingdoms period and is mostly historical.

 

[SckizoBoy]

Seriously, there was an awesome Chinese tv series that you can watch on Youtube for free that is .... well, it is considered more so a romanticism of what actually happened given that itwas adapted by multiple historical accounts of the era, and if there is one thing you should know is that theChinese had an 'interesting' idea orconception of 'benevolence'.

But the cool thing about this tv series is that it covers in incredible depth the political maneuvers that were happening in the background.

Plus Chen Jianban is a fucking amazing actor ... like, best portrayal of Cao Cao. But it's also a tv program that highlights the religious and cultural backdrop of the setting of the time. Plus a surprisingly epic opening intro.

Yeah, he was brilliant, pulling a trollface smirk ever so well. In general, though, he portrayed Cao Cao's craftiness (and more importantly, why he had to be crafty) brilliantly. I also like how they did his and Xun Yu's relationship (a little, but not very surprised, by how little of Guo Jia there was and the complete absence of Yueying, but eh).

On the flipside Xuande was kind of a prick. As I was saying before, the Chinese had a funny idea of 'benevolence' ...

Yeah, like dropping his baby son on the ground and bollocking Zhao Zi-long for risking his life for said baby son... way to go... -_-

How often do I get to play as a fat warlord? And looking at these 2 and their story gives me Darth Vader and Palpatine vibes...

Lu Bu was already an archetype of badass warrior in Chinese history (though for certain reasons, Guan Yu is revered as THE God of War in the Chinese pantheon), but the DW franchise turned it into an outright meme. For players of a certain age, ignoring the cries of 'don't attack/chase Lu Bu' still haunt the mind.

As they said... Among men, Lu Bu, Among horses, Red Hare (and if together, no point running, you dead, man...)

"Technically" England in Medieval 2.

Really? What gave you that impression? France got more out of the 100 Years War than England ever did and during the setting of the game, the English would never directly own any territory south of the Channel ever again.

Decadent, etc yeah... but it's not true. Or at least not as true as many of the nobles of his time.

I think it's more a case of the literary derision of how far he had descended from a soldier's soldier of a warlord to (something resembling) the stereotype of lazy courtier that it was really easy to caricature him while in others it was 'understandable' since they were like that all their lives.

Plus, you know, the usual... victor writes the history...

That said, and it's a common thing to utter rather plaintively, is the lack of details about the setting's women, of whom, historically we only know their surnames, most given names being from folktales, or just family positions (like poor Bao Sanniang...).

If you want some good historical sources I'd strongly recommend checking out Prog. Rafe de Crespigny's (one of the leading western historians on the Three Kingdoms) stuff, some of which can be viewed for free here [https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/html/1885/42048/index.html].

Nice... been after something like that for a while...

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Yeah, he was brilliant, pulling a trollface smirk ever so well. In general, though, he portrayed Cao Cao's craftiness (and more importantly, why he had to be crafty) brilliantly. I also like how they did his and Xun Yu's relationship (a little, but not very surprised, by how little of Guo Jia there was and the complete absence of Yueying, but eh).

Oh yeah ... and that amazing extended scene between him and Yuan Shao? Everythingabout thatscene was epic, and Jianban looks like he's having way too much fucking fun with the role.


Argh ... I hated it when he finally cycled out of the main cast. Though that really touching send off to his character right at the end as if a memory of him in an unseen scene was a lovely touch by the director. Because Chen just gave it everything. Honestly, I kind of hope he becomes a fixtureof Chinese cinema to come.

As for some of the other characters ... I guess so, but they produced like 96 episodes or something and I can honestly sympathise by that point of wanting to do something else. Just complete the story, move on to a new project.

Yeah, like dropping his baby son on the ground and bollocking Zhao Zi-long for risking his life for said baby son... way to go... -_-

Historically he abandoned his wives and blasted one of his generals offering to lead a detachment to save them if I recall correctly. His 'benevolence' was caring about the lives of his soldier over his family. It's kind of a fucked up definition because he was the one that brought them to the front in the first place. I think him tossing his baby is artistic licence ... but Christ, you can suddenly see why his son didn't give a shit about the legacy his father created?

Him being portrayed as soft and weak is likely a derisive commentary on thefact that his father was an arsehole so why thefuck should he care about any of his already non-extant goals of restoring the Han?

I think it's more a case of the literary derision of how far he had descended from a soldier's soldier of a warlord to (something resembling) the stereotype of lazy courtier that it was really easy to caricature him while in others it was 'understandable' since they were like that all their lives.

Plus, you know, the usual... victor writes the history...

That is incredibly true in terms of the Sanguozhi zhu.

That said, and it's a common thing to utter rather plaintively, is the lack of details about the setting's women, of whom, historically we only know their surnames, most given names being from folktales, or just family positions (like poor Bao Sanniang...).

Well ... Confucian society. Women are more or less basically property. In places like Vietnam you see a greater number of women by capita rise to high office in history, but that's ight be due to a more Buddhist rather than Confucian social philosophy... Which also isn't that kind to women, just better ... let's face it, organized religion of any stripe often treats women like property.

 

[Hades]

I know Cao Cao has an English biography.....but its about 200 Euro's which is just absurd.

 

[SckizoBoy]

I know Cao Cao has an English biography.....but its about 200 Euro's which is just absurd.

Most biographies of such people (i.e. those that westerners likely haven't heard of and/or don't give a toss about) are like that since there's no market to write stuff about them. I wanted to get the biography of Lucius Licinius Lucullus, but it's just a facsimile of a series of ancient authors' writings about him... GBP100, yeah, no... same with Subotai, only much worse. Most writings concerning them and their ilk are pretty much strictly academic, so often very difficult to get hold of.

 

[Hades]

I know Cao Cao has an English biography.....but its about 200 Euro's which is just absurd.

Most biographies of such people (i.e. those that westerners likely haven't heard of and/or don't give a toss about) are like that since there's no market to write stuff about them. I wanted to get the biography of Lucius Licinius Lucullus, but it's just a facsimile of a series of ancient authors' writings about him... GBP100, yeah, no... same with Subotai, only much worse. Most writings concerning them and their ilk are pretty much strictly academic, so often very difficult to get hold of.

That's weird about Lucullus. Romans are usually pretty lucky in the supply of biographies among them.

I know the lack of recognition these figures have is the prime reason for the lack of information about them. But sometimes a country is lucky. Two out of three unifiers of Japan have pretty affordable biography's, probably because the western fetish for Samurai.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I know Cao Cao has an English biography.....but its about 200 Euro's which is just absurd.

Or you could just go to your local university library and read it....

 

[Hades]

I know Cao Cao has an English biography.....but its about 200 Euro's which is just absurd.

Or you could just go to your local university library and read it....

As a former Librarian myself I know where that would get me. Libraries are akin to book stores when it comes to their history section. Any self respecting library will certainly have a good share or Roman history, Medieval History, Baroque history and lots of WWII stuff. But if the subject is too far removed from the West and if the public has little interest in the matter then a library isn't going to acquire that book. The same principle is applied in other library sections as well, whether its cooking or spots. If its not popular or essential you won't find it in the library.

The library does know it should educate people as well as easily provide popular material, but the strive for education only goes so far. Any self respecting library will definitely acquire books about the founding history of a nation, or of Napoleon who no doubt influenced any European nation. They would buy these books regardless of how much interest there would be in them because its important for this knowledge to be available to the public. But knowledge about long forgotten warlords on the other side of the globe and with minimal impact on the country does not fall into this category. Its not essential information and it falls outside the scope of even many history hobbyists. There is only so much room in the library and so much money they can spend, so a responsible library has very little reason to go out and acquire these books.

Even university libraries are unlikely to go as deep as Cao Cao. They would mention in general histories of China but I doubt I'd find the full biography there.

And even if a Librarian would conclude that Cao Cao is so important that everyone MUST know about him then the absurd price tag would be enough to dissuade him of this idea. Libraries are subsidized by the state which means that the economic recession resulted in lots and lots of budget cuts. The libraries can barely affort to keep their employees so they wouldn't go buying books of 200 Euro.

 

[Saelune]

I know Cao Cao has an English biography.....but its about 200 Euro's which is just absurd.

Or you could just go to your local university library and read it....

As a former Librarian myself I know where that would get me. Libraries are akin to book stores when it comes to their history section. Any self respecting library will certainly have a good share or Roman history, Medieval History, Baroque history and lots of WWII stuff. But if the subject is too far removed from the West and if the public has little interest in the matter then a library isn't going to acquire that book. The same principle is applied in other library sections as well, whether its cooking or spots. If its not popular or essential you won't find it in the library.

The library does know it should educate people as well as easily provide popular material, but the strive for education only goes so far. Any self respecting library will definitely acquire books about the founding history of a nation, or of Napoleon who no doubt influenced any European nation. They would buy these books regardless of how much interest there would be in them because its important for this knowledge to be available to the public. But knowledge about long forgotten warlords on the other side of the globe and with minimal impact on the country does not fall into this category. Its not essential information and it falls outside the scope of even many history hobbyists. There is only so much room in the library and so much money they can spend, so a responsible library has very little reason to go out and acquire these books.

Even university libraries are unlikely to go as deep as Cao Cao. They would mention in general histories of China but I doubt I'd find the full biography there.

And even if a Librarian would conclude that Cao Cao is so important that everyone MUST know about him then the absurd price tag would be enough to dissuade him of this idea. Libraries are subsidized by the state which means that the economic recession resulted in lots and lots of budget cuts. The libraries can barely affort to keep their employees so they wouldn't go buying books of 200 Euro.

The internet exists.

Edit: I pressed something that caused it to post (without clicking post, I have more to say)

I mean, the whole of Romance of the Three Kingdoms is freely available online, I also recently found Pliny's Natural History online and that blows my mind. I haven't actually looked, but I am sure there are tons of stuff online about this. Could always check Wikipedia's sources too.

 

[Hades]

I know Cao Cao has an English biography.....but its about 200 Euro's which is just absurd.

Or you could just go to your local university library and read it....

As a former Librarian myself I know where that would get me. Libraries are akin to book stores when it comes to their history section. Any self respecting library will certainly have a good share or Roman history, Medieval History, Baroque history and lots of WWII stuff. But if the subject is too far removed from the West and if the public has little interest in the matter then a library isn't going to acquire that book. The same principle is applied in other library sections as well, whether its cooking or spots. If its not popular or essential you won't find it in the library.

The library does know it should educate people as well as easily provide popular material, but the strive for education only goes so far. Any self respecting library will definitely acquire books about the founding history of a nation, or of Napoleon who no doubt influenced any European nation. They would buy these books regardless of how much interest there would be in them because its important for this knowledge to be available to the public. But knowledge about long forgotten warlords on the other side of the globe and with minimal impact on the country does not fall into this category. Its not essential information and it falls outside the scope of even many history hobbyists. There is only so much room in the library and so much money they can spend, so a responsible library has very little reason to go out and acquire these books.

Even university libraries are unlikely to go as deep as Cao Cao. They would mention in general histories of China but I doubt I'd find the full biography there.

And even if a Librarian would conclude that Cao Cao is so important that everyone MUST know about him then the absurd price tag would be enough to dissuade him of this idea. Libraries are subsidized by the state which means that the economic recession resulted in lots and lots of budget cuts. The libraries can barely affort to keep their employees so they wouldn't go buying books of 200 Euro.

The internet exists.

Edit: I pressed something that caused it to post (without clicking post, I have more to say)

I mean, the whole of Romance of the Three Kingdoms is freely available online, I also recently found Pliny's Natural History online and that blows my mind. I haven't actually looked, but I am sure there are tons of stuff online about this. Could always check Wikipedia's sources too.

The Romance of the Three Kingdoms is something we do have, though its important to note that the novel and the history differ significantly. I....did not like the novel. Its written in this really archaic style and for some reason that probably makes sense to Chinese people the characters introduce themselves by giving two different names. The end of the chapter always ending with ''Read on to find out'' really irritated me too.

 

[Saelune]

I know Cao Cao has an English biography.....but its about 200 Euro's which is just absurd.

Or you could just go to your local university library and read it....

As a former Librarian myself I know where that would get me. Libraries are akin to book stores when it comes to their history section. Any self respecting library will certainly have a good share or Roman history, Medieval History, Baroque history and lots of WWII stuff. But if the subject is too far removed from the West and if the public has little interest in the matter then a library isn't going to acquire that book. The same principle is applied in other library sections as well, whether its cooking or spots. If its not popular or essential you won't find it in the library.

The library does know it should educate people as well as easily provide popular material, but the strive for education only goes so far. Any self respecting library will definitely acquire books about the founding history of a nation, or of Napoleon who no doubt influenced any European nation. They would buy these books regardless of how much interest there would be in them because its important for this knowledge to be available to the public. But knowledge about long forgotten warlords on the other side of the globe and with minimal impact on the country does not fall into this category. Its not essential information and it falls outside the scope of even many history hobbyists. There is only so much room in the library and so much money they can spend, so a responsible library has very little reason to go out and acquire these books.

Even university libraries are unlikely to go as deep as Cao Cao. They would mention in general histories of China but I doubt I'd find the full biography there.

And even if a Librarian would conclude that Cao Cao is so important that everyone MUST know about him then the absurd price tag would be enough to dissuade him of this idea. Libraries are subsidized by the state which means that the economic recession resulted in lots and lots of budget cuts. The libraries can barely affort to keep their employees so they wouldn't go buying books of 200 Euro.

The internet exists.

Edit: I pressed something that caused it to post (without clicking post, I have more to say)

I mean, the whole of Romance of the Three Kingdoms is freely available online, I also recently found Pliny's Natural History online and that blows my mind. I haven't actually looked, but I am sure there are tons of stuff online about this. Could always check Wikipedia's sources too.

The Romance of the Three Kingdoms is something we do have, though its important to note that the novel and the history differ significantly. I....did not like the novel. Its written in this really archaic style and for some reason that probably makes sense to Chinese people the characters introduce themselves by giving two different names. The end of the chapter always ending with ''Read on to find out'' really irritated me too.

I was more pointing out that something like that is freely online, so maybe more historical stuff is too, not to use it as a primary source.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

As a former Librarian myself I know where that would get me. Libraries are akin to book stores when it comes to their history section. Any self respecting library will certainly have a good share or Roman history, Medieval History, Baroque history and lots of WWII stuff. But if the subject is too far removed from the West and if the public has little interest in the matter then a library isn't going to acquire that book. The same principle is applied in other library sections as well, whether its cooking or spots. If its not popular or essential you won't find it in the library.

The library does know it should educate people as well as easily provide popular material, but the strive for education only goes so far. Any self respecting library will definitely acquire books about the founding history of a nation, or of Napoleon who no doubt influenced any European nation. They would buy these books regardless of how much interest there would be in them because its important for this knowledge to be available to the public. But knowledge about long forgotten warlords on the other side of the globe and with minimal impact on the country does not fall into this category. Its not essential information and it falls outside the scope of even many history hobbyists. There is only so much room in the library and so much money they can spend, so a responsible library has very little reason to go out and acquire these books.

Even university libraries are unlikely to go as deep as Cao Cao. They would mention in general histories of China but I doubt I'd find the full biography there.

And even if a Librarian would conclude that Cao Cao is so important that everyone MUST know about him then the absurd price tag would be enough to dissuade him of this idea. Libraries are subsidized by the state which means that the economic recession resulted in lots and lots of budget cuts. The libraries can barely affort to keep their employees so they wouldn't go buying books of 200 Euro.

I'm willing to bet you, either digitized or hard media, that my university's library has it somewhere. The main library alone has most of a floor (Floor 7 to be specific) dedicated to world history. And that's to say nothing of its electronic assets or archives below ground. It just depends on the native interest and research necessities of that university has to cater for.

Cao Cao is kind of important for multiple reasons. For starters he was a fairly prolific writer himself, his life details tell an interesting story of Chinese socioeconomic aspects of the life and times he lived in, and he was quintessential figure that would shape Chinese politics for a century after his death.

I think it more so depends on whch university you go to.

 

[SckizoBoy]

The Romance of the Three Kingdoms is something we do have, though its important to note that the novel and the history differ significantly. I....did not like the novel. Its written in this really archaic style

In English or in Chinese?

and for some reason that probably makes sense to Chinese people the characters introduce themselves by giving two different names.

Yeah, that's the whole 'courtesy name' thing that the Chinese liked doing pretty much right up until the end of the Empire (e.g. look up the names of Sun Yat-sen). It was a symbol of becoming an adult (that is, distinct from a nickname) and considered a marker for character, education, civility and nobility. Then, post-civil war, it was taken as a ma-hoo-ssive indicator of pretentiousness.

Practically speaking, it was also a way to distinguish people with the same (whether written or phonological) name but were, largely, unrelated, and not just because most had only two character names (those that had three character names had double-barrelled surnames e.g. Zhuge Liang & bros), compared to the modern era wherein double-barrelled surnames are just as rare, but two character given names are the norm, while single character given names are a very small minority.

I'm willing to bet you, either digitized or hard media, that my university's library has it somewhere. The main library alone has most of a floor (Floor 7 to be specific) dedicated to world history. And that's to say nothing of its electronic assets or archives below ground. It just depends on the native interest and research necessities of that university has to cater for.

Cao Cao is kind of important for multiple reasons. For starters he was a fairly prolific writer himself, his life details tell an interesting story of Chinese socioeconomic aspects of the life and times he lived in, and he was quintessential figure that would shape Chinese politics for a century after his death.

I think it more so depends on whch university you go to.

While I agree (& apologies for not replying to your earlier post, yeah, Chen's snide chuckle is probably the take-away aspect of his performance that made his Cao Cao so damned good, even relatable), it's less a case of how Cao Cao was important (no issue there), but how/why the general university student (even of history) may not see it that way. Since we're in an anglophonic environment, I'm willing to bet that the average Escapist user doesn't even know (without looking it up, that is) Cao Cao's courtesy name, or has any interest in remembering it... or, even how to pronounce 'Cao Cao' (even if I write it as 'Cao3 Cao2') and realise it's not the same word repeated, I mean, look at Dynasty Warriors' English dub right up to DW5 (I think... pronouncing it, let's be generous, as 'Kao Kao'). So definitely, it depends on the university. My alma mater would likely not have it (Imperial College, London), and even though the 'general library' was (and presumably still is) well stocked, its history section would still be confined to more popular history, and for an institution in central London, that means anglo- and eurocentric material plus exotic extras (Cao Cao being too vague for Brits to be considered exotic).