If a company doesn't provide a demo for a game is it ok to pirate it?

[LarenzoAOG]

So I had this come up in a debate with my friend, if a gaming company doesn't provide a demo for a game is it ok to pirate it, to try it out for yourself?

That's like saying "If a car dealer doesn't let me test drive this sedan is it ok to steal it?" Unless there is literally no way to legally obtain a game you have no right to pirate it.

I'm not going to march around with a picket sign saying that pirating is litterally the worst thing for the industry, but unless you absolutly need something and you cannot obtain it through proper channels then you shouldn't steal it.

Where cars are concerned, there are Lemon Laws.

I'm sure you got the point, just because you can't try something out before purchasing it doesn't give you a right to steal it.

I am sure you missed the point. Software does not have Lemon Laws so if you buy a game that should run on your PC (you are at or above the min specs) and it doesn't run or if it is extremely buggy, you can't return it.

Games are released in extremely buggy states these days. Just in the last week there are two games that released buggy as hell Skyrim and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7. Skyrim has serious framerate and texture issues plus a few broken quests as I understand and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7 on the PC won't even run because of faulty DRM.

Now tell me, if you bought a car that kept slowing down to 20 MPH or that wouldn't even start, what would you do? I'll bet you would demand a test drive before you buy a car anyway and isn't that all that people are asking for here?

I understand, but a demo isn't some right that we all have, if you can't get a demo and your not sure then don't buy the game, and while there are no lemon laws for game any dev who actually cares about the customer will put out a free patch, or a helpful gamer will.

The point still stands, a lack of a demo doesn't justify what is essentially theft.

No one has argued that demos are a right but that is irrelevant since most things in general are not a right. However, day one patches have become all too common and that shows just how careless devs have become. Last gen and before there were no patches and the game simply had to work out of the box. Even though games can be patched, they aren't always patched. For example, guess who fixed Oblivion and guess who didn't? Bethesda wasn't shy about selling you Horse Armor but actually patching the game is something they largely left to the mod community.

You can demo most products, want to try out that new TV? Buy it and if it sucks, take it back for a refund. What's wrong with people doing the internet equivalent of that for software?

A demo of a TV and a demo of a video game are really quite different, a TV is a completed physical product, when you demo it you are basically just borrowing the TV you may or may not buy, you aren't borrowing a part of the TV while the rest is still in developement.

And I agree on your point about refunds, if you buy a thing and it's shit get a refund, but you have to pay for something to get a refund, if you pirate a game and you don't like it than you just stole something that you turned out not to like, so why not just buy it? Best case scenario it's money well spent, worst case you get your money back.

As for digital copies, well I've never bought a digital copy of a game in my life so I really don't know if refunds are applicable to that line of thinking, but even then you can just but the game for PC and install it off the disc.

But honestly are we going to agree on this matter any time soon? Because we've been going back and forth for like 2 or 3 days now.

I love the "but video games are different than every other product in existance and should have special anti-consumer rules" argument. You do too I see.

Let me explain the whole refund thing to you. I buy a TV, it costs $1000, it sucks so I take it back and get my $1000 back. I am out $0. I download a game, it sucks, I delete it, I am out $0. I buy a game, it sucks, I can't return it, I am out $60.

Game companies want you to buy blind but you don't have to. If they want to discourage honest people from downloading a full game demo, they should make a demo for honest people to download.

I really do just love that argument, I just wanna cozy on up to it by the fireplace, but back to the matter at hand.

Where are you getting your games at? Because I always get a refund for shit games, do you exclusively download digital copies? And besides, what if you pirate the game and you like it, do you just not buy it and keep the stolen version? Because that's kind of shitty.

If you actually do want to buy it after pirating I guess that's not to bad, but I highly doubt many people would go out to buy a good game they already pirated. If you really want to know if you'll like a game before you buy it you can always rent it like most normal people would, you can rent a game for a week for under 5 bucks, or you can use Redbox or Gamefly or Blockbuster.

I completely understand that you want to test drive a game before buying it, and I really love demos, but just because you don't get a demo doesn't mean you have to resort to theft.

 

[Epona]

So I had this come up in a debate with my friend, if a gaming company doesn't provide a demo for a game is it ok to pirate it, to try it out for yourself?

That's like saying "If a car dealer doesn't let me test drive this sedan is it ok to steal it?" Unless there is literally no way to legally obtain a game you have no right to pirate it.

I'm not going to march around with a picket sign saying that pirating is litterally the worst thing for the industry, but unless you absolutly need something and you cannot obtain it through proper channels then you shouldn't steal it.

Where cars are concerned, there are Lemon Laws.

I'm sure you got the point, just because you can't try something out before purchasing it doesn't give you a right to steal it.

I am sure you missed the point. Software does not have Lemon Laws so if you buy a game that should run on your PC (you are at or above the min specs) and it doesn't run or if it is extremely buggy, you can't return it.

Games are released in extremely buggy states these days. Just in the last week there are two games that released buggy as hell Skyrim and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7. Skyrim has serious framerate and texture issues plus a few broken quests as I understand and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7 on the PC won't even run because of faulty DRM.

Now tell me, if you bought a car that kept slowing down to 20 MPH or that wouldn't even start, what would you do? I'll bet you would demand a test drive before you buy a car anyway and isn't that all that people are asking for here?

I understand, but a demo isn't some right that we all have, if you can't get a demo and your not sure then don't buy the game, and while there are no lemon laws for game any dev who actually cares about the customer will put out a free patch, or a helpful gamer will.

The point still stands, a lack of a demo doesn't justify what is essentially theft.

No one has argued that demos are a right but that is irrelevant since most things in general are not a right. However, day one patches have become all too common and that shows just how careless devs have become. Last gen and before there were no patches and the game simply had to work out of the box. Even though games can be patched, they aren't always patched. For example, guess who fixed Oblivion and guess who didn't? Bethesda wasn't shy about selling you Horse Armor but actually patching the game is something they largely left to the mod community.

You can demo most products, want to try out that new TV? Buy it and if it sucks, take it back for a refund. What's wrong with people doing the internet equivalent of that for software?

A demo of a TV and a demo of a video game are really quite different, a TV is a completed physical product, when you demo it you are basically just borrowing the TV you may or may not buy, you aren't borrowing a part of the TV while the rest is still in developement.

And I agree on your point about refunds, if you buy a thing and it's shit get a refund, but you have to pay for something to get a refund, if you pirate a game and you don't like it than you just stole something that you turned out not to like, so why not just buy it? Best case scenario it's money well spent, worst case you get your money back.

As for digital copies, well I've never bought a digital copy of a game in my life so I really don't know if refunds are applicable to that line of thinking, but even then you can just but the game for PC and install it off the disc.

But honestly are we going to agree on this matter any time soon? Because we've been going back and forth for like 2 or 3 days now.

I love the "but video games are different than every other product in existance and should have special anti-consumer rules" argument. You do too I see.

Let me explain the whole refund thing to you. I buy a TV, it costs $1000, it sucks so I take it back and get my $1000 back. I am out $0. I download a game, it sucks, I delete it, I am out $0. I buy a game, it sucks, I can't return it, I am out $60.

Game companies want you to buy blind but you don't have to. If they want to discourage honest people from downloading a full game demo, they should make a demo for honest people to download.

I really do just love that argument, I just wanna cozy on up to it by the fireplace, but back to the matter at hand.

Where are you getting your games at? Because I always get a refund for shit games, do you exclusively download digital copies? And besides, what if you pirate the game and you like it, do you just not buy it and keep the stolen version? Because that's kind of shitty.

If you actually do want to buy it after pirating I guess that's not to bad, but I highly doubt many people would go out to buy a good game they already pirated. If you really want to know if you'll like a game before you buy it you can always rent it like most normal people would, you can rent a game for a week for under 5 bucks, or you can use Redbox or Gamefly or Blockbuster.

I completely understand that you want to test drive a game before buying it, and I really love demos, but just because you don't get a demo doesn't mean you have to resort to theft.

I buy physical copies at places like Wal Mart, Best Buy, Target, etc... None of those places will take back an opened game for a refund. PC games won't be taken back at all if opened. Console games can be exchanged for the same title. Those are the industry standards.

We are talking about people who pirate a game so they can demo it, not people who pirate a game to keep. Two different groups of people but there are overlaps. In fact, once a person has been introduced to piracy because of nasty DRM or to see if a game will run on their PC, there's no going back. The shit cannot be put back in the horse at that point. Once you've done something once and learned how, it's easier the second time and that is the number one reason why devs should make demos and why nasty DRM should be avoided.

Sorry, back to the group of people who just want to demo the game (for free as a demo should be). Those people are just refusing to buy blind and think they are smart people. Smarter than me actually since I have dropped alot of money on bad games over the years.

Can you rent a PC game to see if it runs well on your PC? Suggesting renting to people who pirate PC games is pointless.

Which is worse, devs requiring you to buy blind or you downloading a game to demo it and then buying it?

 

[Erttheking]

Hm, how do I put this, oh yeah that's right NO IT ISN'T!

 

[Dexiro]

nope.

there are no valid reasons for piracy.

it's always up to you whether or not you think you're comfortable with doing it, but there aren't any excuses that make it "ok".

I'd argue that it does have some justifications, albeit very very few.

For example I downloaded Morrowind to see if my PC could run it, and upon seeing that It did I immediately bought the game on Steam. I've generally found system specs to be unreliable, perhaps because the PC I had at the time was ancient and completely backwards.

However pirating a game to provide yourself with a gameplay demo isn't ok.

I mean how long would you play for? Do you seriously trust yourself to delete the game after that amount of time? Perhaps the game doesn't kick in for a while, are you going to keep playing waiting for the good bits to start? Their are just far too many unknowns, and often developers have a good reason for not releasing a demo. I also guarantee most people would say "I didn't like it enough to buy it but I'm gonna keep it anyway".

If developers want to avoid those unknowns that then they should provide a demo that they designed. The good reason why developers don't offer a demo is usually because they don't want to spend the money to make one. Well, there are consequences. Buying blind isn't something that should be expected of consumers.

You're not buying a game blind though. Buying a game blind would be buying a game that you know nothing about. If a game has been long enough to be pirated then there's probably a plethora of both professional and user reviews, and probably gameplay videos too. Those are there for to help you make an informed choice.

 

[LarenzoAOG]

So I had this come up in a debate with my friend, if a gaming company doesn't provide a demo for a game is it ok to pirate it, to try it out for yourself?

That's like saying "If a car dealer doesn't let me test drive this sedan is it ok to steal it?" Unless there is literally no way to legally obtain a game you have no right to pirate it.

I'm not going to march around with a picket sign saying that pirating is litterally the worst thing for the industry, but unless you absolutly need something and you cannot obtain it through proper channels then you shouldn't steal it.

Where cars are concerned, there are Lemon Laws.

I'm sure you got the point, just because you can't try something out before purchasing it doesn't give you a right to steal it.

I am sure you missed the point. Software does not have Lemon Laws so if you buy a game that should run on your PC (you are at or above the min specs) and it doesn't run or if it is extremely buggy, you can't return it.

Games are released in extremely buggy states these days. Just in the last week there are two games that released buggy as hell Skyrim and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7. Skyrim has serious framerate and texture issues plus a few broken quests as I understand and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7 on the PC won't even run because of faulty DRM.

Now tell me, if you bought a car that kept slowing down to 20 MPH or that wouldn't even start, what would you do? I'll bet you would demand a test drive before you buy a car anyway and isn't that all that people are asking for here?

I understand, but a demo isn't some right that we all have, if you can't get a demo and your not sure then don't buy the game, and while there are no lemon laws for game any dev who actually cares about the customer will put out a free patch, or a helpful gamer will.

The point still stands, a lack of a demo doesn't justify what is essentially theft.

No one has argued that demos are a right but that is irrelevant since most things in general are not a right. However, day one patches have become all too common and that shows just how careless devs have become. Last gen and before there were no patches and the game simply had to work out of the box. Even though games can be patched, they aren't always patched. For example, guess who fixed Oblivion and guess who didn't? Bethesda wasn't shy about selling you Horse Armor but actually patching the game is something they largely left to the mod community.

You can demo most products, want to try out that new TV? Buy it and if it sucks, take it back for a refund. What's wrong with people doing the internet equivalent of that for software?

A demo of a TV and a demo of a video game are really quite different, a TV is a completed physical product, when you demo it you are basically just borrowing the TV you may or may not buy, you aren't borrowing a part of the TV while the rest is still in developement.

And I agree on your point about refunds, if you buy a thing and it's shit get a refund, but you have to pay for something to get a refund, if you pirate a game and you don't like it than you just stole something that you turned out not to like, so why not just buy it? Best case scenario it's money well spent, worst case you get your money back.

As for digital copies, well I've never bought a digital copy of a game in my life so I really don't know if refunds are applicable to that line of thinking, but even then you can just but the game for PC and install it off the disc.

But honestly are we going to agree on this matter any time soon? Because we've been going back and forth for like 2 or 3 days now.

I love the "but video games are different than every other product in existance and should have special anti-consumer rules" argument. You do too I see.

Let me explain the whole refund thing to you. I buy a TV, it costs $1000, it sucks so I take it back and get my $1000 back. I am out $0. I download a game, it sucks, I delete it, I am out $0. I buy a game, it sucks, I can't return it, I am out $60.

Game companies want you to buy blind but you don't have to. If they want to discourage honest people from downloading a full game demo, they should make a demo for honest people to download.

I really do just love that argument, I just wanna cozy on up to it by the fireplace, but back to the matter at hand.

Where are you getting your games at? Because I always get a refund for shit games, do you exclusively download digital copies? And besides, what if you pirate the game and you like it, do you just not buy it and keep the stolen version? Because that's kind of shitty.

If you actually do want to buy it after pirating I guess that's not to bad, but I highly doubt many people would go out to buy a good game they already pirated. If you really want to know if you'll like a game before you buy it you can always rent it like most normal people would, you can rent a game for a week for under 5 bucks, or you can use Redbox or Gamefly or Blockbuster.

I completely understand that you want to test drive a game before buying it, and I really love demos, but just because you don't get a demo doesn't mean you have to resort to theft.

I buy physical copies at places like Wal Mart, Best Buy, Target, etc... None of those places will take back an opened game for a refund. PC games won't be taken back at all if opened. Console games can be exchanged for the same title. Those are the industry standards.

We are talking about people who pirate a game so they can demo it, not people who pirate a game to keep. Two different groups of people but there are overlaps. In fact, once a person has been introduced to piracy because of nasty DRM or to see if a game will run on their PC, there's no going back. The shit cannot be put back in the horse at that point. Once you've done something once and learned how, it's easier the second time and that is the number one reason why devs should make demos and why nasty DRM should be avoided.

Sorry, back to the group of people who just want to demo the game (for free as a demo should be). Those people are just refusing to buy blind and think they are smart people. Smarter than me actually since I have dropped alot of money on bad games over the years.

Can you rent a PC game to see if it runs well on your PC? Suggesting renting to people who pirate PC games is pointless.

Which is worse, devs requiring you to buy blind or you downloading a game to demo it and then buying it?

I understand that people will pirate to demo, but do you honestly think that people like that exist in any great number? Because I sure don't.

Buy your games from Gamestop from now on by the way, you have 7 days to decide if you like the game and you can get 100% refund. We can debate the merits of second hand games too if you feel like it.

All I'm saying is that there are better ways of seeing if you'll like the game than pirating, honestly we can go on for days as we already have, I know nothing you will say is likely to persuade me, I say we just agree to disagree while we're still civil.

 

[Custard_Angel]

No.

Not at all.

For any reason.

No.

 

[Epona]

A very simply solution for this is to rent the console version of the game (assuming their is one). That should give you a good estimate of whether you should buy it for the PC.

Really? The PS3 version of Skyrim isn't going to tell me if Skyrim will run on my PC, will it?

See, that's the biggest reason for PC demo's, it's to see if your PC can run it. See if it crashes every few minutes and so on. We can get other information by reading reviews but do you want to drop $60 on a PC game and then have your PC not run it? BTW, the specs are usually BS.

 

[Epona]

So I had this come up in a debate with my friend, if a gaming company doesn't provide a demo for a game is it ok to pirate it, to try it out for yourself?

That's like saying "If a car dealer doesn't let me test drive this sedan is it ok to steal it?" Unless there is literally no way to legally obtain a game you have no right to pirate it.

I'm not going to march around with a picket sign saying that pirating is litterally the worst thing for the industry, but unless you absolutly need something and you cannot obtain it through proper channels then you shouldn't steal it.

Where cars are concerned, there are Lemon Laws.

I'm sure you got the point, just because you can't try something out before purchasing it doesn't give you a right to steal it.

I am sure you missed the point. Software does not have Lemon Laws so if you buy a game that should run on your PC (you are at or above the min specs) and it doesn't run or if it is extremely buggy, you can't return it.

Games are released in extremely buggy states these days. Just in the last week there are two games that released buggy as hell Skyrim and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7. Skyrim has serious framerate and texture issues plus a few broken quests as I understand and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7 on the PC won't even run because of faulty DRM.

Now tell me, if you bought a car that kept slowing down to 20 MPH or that wouldn't even start, what would you do? I'll bet you would demand a test drive before you buy a car anyway and isn't that all that people are asking for here?

I understand, but a demo isn't some right that we all have, if you can't get a demo and your not sure then don't buy the game, and while there are no lemon laws for game any dev who actually cares about the customer will put out a free patch, or a helpful gamer will.

The point still stands, a lack of a demo doesn't justify what is essentially theft.

No one has argued that demos are a right but that is irrelevant since most things in general are not a right. However, day one patches have become all too common and that shows just how careless devs have become. Last gen and before there were no patches and the game simply had to work out of the box. Even though games can be patched, they aren't always patched. For example, guess who fixed Oblivion and guess who didn't? Bethesda wasn't shy about selling you Horse Armor but actually patching the game is something they largely left to the mod community.

You can demo most products, want to try out that new TV? Buy it and if it sucks, take it back for a refund. What's wrong with people doing the internet equivalent of that for software?

A demo of a TV and a demo of a video game are really quite different, a TV is a completed physical product, when you demo it you are basically just borrowing the TV you may or may not buy, you aren't borrowing a part of the TV while the rest is still in developement.

And I agree on your point about refunds, if you buy a thing and it's shit get a refund, but you have to pay for something to get a refund, if you pirate a game and you don't like it than you just stole something that you turned out not to like, so why not just buy it? Best case scenario it's money well spent, worst case you get your money back.

As for digital copies, well I've never bought a digital copy of a game in my life so I really don't know if refunds are applicable to that line of thinking, but even then you can just but the game for PC and install it off the disc.

But honestly are we going to agree on this matter any time soon? Because we've been going back and forth for like 2 or 3 days now.

I love the "but video games are different than every other product in existance and should have special anti-consumer rules" argument. You do too I see.

Let me explain the whole refund thing to you. I buy a TV, it costs $1000, it sucks so I take it back and get my $1000 back. I am out $0. I download a game, it sucks, I delete it, I am out $0. I buy a game, it sucks, I can't return it, I am out $60.

Game companies want you to buy blind but you don't have to. If they want to discourage honest people from downloading a full game demo, they should make a demo for honest people to download.

I really do just love that argument, I just wanna cozy on up to it by the fireplace, but back to the matter at hand.

Where are you getting your games at? Because I always get a refund for shit games, do you exclusively download digital copies? And besides, what if you pirate the game and you like it, do you just not buy it and keep the stolen version? Because that's kind of shitty.

If you actually do want to buy it after pirating I guess that's not to bad, but I highly doubt many people would go out to buy a good game they already pirated. If you really want to know if you'll like a game before you buy it you can always rent it like most normal people would, you can rent a game for a week for under 5 bucks, or you can use Redbox or Gamefly or Blockbuster.

I completely understand that you want to test drive a game before buying it, and I really love demos, but just because you don't get a demo doesn't mean you have to resort to theft.

I buy physical copies at places like Wal Mart, Best Buy, Target, etc... None of those places will take back an opened game for a refund. PC games won't be taken back at all if opened. Console games can be exchanged for the same title. Those are the industry standards.

We are talking about people who pirate a game so they can demo it, not people who pirate a game to keep. Two different groups of people but there are overlaps. In fact, once a person has been introduced to piracy because of nasty DRM or to see if a game will run on their PC, there's no going back. The shit cannot be put back in the horse at that point. Once you've done something once and learned how, it's easier the second time and that is the number one reason why devs should make demos and why nasty DRM should be avoided.

Sorry, back to the group of people who just want to demo the game (for free as a demo should be). Those people are just refusing to buy blind and think they are smart people. Smarter than me actually since I have dropped alot of money on bad games over the years.

Can you rent a PC game to see if it runs well on your PC? Suggesting renting to people who pirate PC games is pointless.

Which is worse, devs requiring you to buy blind or you downloading a game to demo it and then buying it?

I understand that people will pirate to demo, but do you honestly think that people like that exist in any great number? Because I sure don't.

Buy your games from Gamestop from now on by the way, you have 7 days to decide if you like the game and you can get 100% refund. We can debate the merits of second hand games too if you feel like it.

All I'm saying is that there are better ways of seeing if you'll like the game than pirating, honestly we can go on for days as we already have, I know nothing you will say is likely to persuade me, I say we just agree to disagree while we're still civil.

I'll be in Gamestop tomorrow to pick up Zelda and I will ask them if they will accept returns for opened PC games. I already know the answer but I'll ask anyway. Here's a hint: Gamestop doesn't sell used PC games and they won't let you return them either.

 

[Epona]

nope.

there are no valid reasons for piracy.

it's always up to you whether or not you think you're comfortable with doing it, but there aren't any excuses that make it "ok".

I'd argue that it does have some justifications, albeit very very few.

For example I downloaded Morrowind to see if my PC could run it, and upon seeing that It did I immediately bought the game on Steam. I've generally found system specs to be unreliable, perhaps because the PC I had at the time was ancient and completely backwards.

However pirating a game to provide yourself with a gameplay demo isn't ok.

I mean how long would you play for? Do you seriously trust yourself to delete the game after that amount of time? Perhaps the game doesn't kick in for a while, are you going to keep playing waiting for the good bits to start? Their are just far too many unknowns, and often developers have a good reason for not releasing a demo. I also guarantee most people would say "I didn't like it enough to buy it but I'm gonna keep it anyway".

If developers want to avoid those unknowns that then they should provide a demo that they designed. The good reason why developers don't offer a demo is usually because they don't want to spend the money to make one. Well, there are consequences. Buying blind isn't something that should be expected of consumers.

You're not buying a game blind though. Buying a game blind would be buying a game that you know nothing about. If a game has been long enough to be pirated then there's probably a plethora of both professional and user reviews, and probably gameplay videos too. Those are there for to help you make an informed choice.

I just don't know how many times I am going to have to say this.

THE MAIN PURPOSE OF A DEMO IS TO SEE IF THE GAME WILL RUN ON YOUR PC. Reviews, rentals and used copies are NOT an option!

 

[LarenzoAOG]

So I had this come up in a debate with my friend, if a gaming company doesn't provide a demo for a game is it ok to pirate it, to try it out for yourself?

That's like saying "If a car dealer doesn't let me test drive this sedan is it ok to steal it?" Unless there is literally no way to legally obtain a game you have no right to pirate it.

I'm not going to march around with a picket sign saying that pirating is litterally the worst thing for the industry, but unless you absolutly need something and you cannot obtain it through proper channels then you shouldn't steal it.

Where cars are concerned, there are Lemon Laws.

I'm sure you got the point, just because you can't try something out before purchasing it doesn't give you a right to steal it.

I am sure you missed the point. Software does not have Lemon Laws so if you buy a game that should run on your PC (you are at or above the min specs) and it doesn't run or if it is extremely buggy, you can't return it.

Games are released in extremely buggy states these days. Just in the last week there are two games that released buggy as hell Skyrim and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7. Skyrim has serious framerate and texture issues plus a few broken quests as I understand and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7 on the PC won't even run because of faulty DRM.

Now tell me, if you bought a car that kept slowing down to 20 MPH or that wouldn't even start, what would you do? I'll bet you would demand a test drive before you buy a car anyway and isn't that all that people are asking for here?

I understand, but a demo isn't some right that we all have, if you can't get a demo and your not sure then don't buy the game, and while there are no lemon laws for game any dev who actually cares about the customer will put out a free patch, or a helpful gamer will.

The point still stands, a lack of a demo doesn't justify what is essentially theft.

No one has argued that demos are a right but that is irrelevant since most things in general are not a right. However, day one patches have become all too common and that shows just how careless devs have become. Last gen and before there were no patches and the game simply had to work out of the box. Even though games can be patched, they aren't always patched. For example, guess who fixed Oblivion and guess who didn't? Bethesda wasn't shy about selling you Horse Armor but actually patching the game is something they largely left to the mod community.

You can demo most products, want to try out that new TV? Buy it and if it sucks, take it back for a refund. What's wrong with people doing the internet equivalent of that for software?

A demo of a TV and a demo of a video game are really quite different, a TV is a completed physical product, when you demo it you are basically just borrowing the TV you may or may not buy, you aren't borrowing a part of the TV while the rest is still in developement.

And I agree on your point about refunds, if you buy a thing and it's shit get a refund, but you have to pay for something to get a refund, if you pirate a game and you don't like it than you just stole something that you turned out not to like, so why not just buy it? Best case scenario it's money well spent, worst case you get your money back.

As for digital copies, well I've never bought a digital copy of a game in my life so I really don't know if refunds are applicable to that line of thinking, but even then you can just but the game for PC and install it off the disc.

But honestly are we going to agree on this matter any time soon? Because we've been going back and forth for like 2 or 3 days now.

I love the "but video games are different than every other product in existance and should have special anti-consumer rules" argument. You do too I see.

Let me explain the whole refund thing to you. I buy a TV, it costs $1000, it sucks so I take it back and get my $1000 back. I am out $0. I download a game, it sucks, I delete it, I am out $0. I buy a game, it sucks, I can't return it, I am out $60.

Game companies want you to buy blind but you don't have to. If they want to discourage honest people from downloading a full game demo, they should make a demo for honest people to download.

I really do just love that argument, I just wanna cozy on up to it by the fireplace, but back to the matter at hand.

Where are you getting your games at? Because I always get a refund for shit games, do you exclusively download digital copies? And besides, what if you pirate the game and you like it, do you just not buy it and keep the stolen version? Because that's kind of shitty.

If you actually do want to buy it after pirating I guess that's not to bad, but I highly doubt many people would go out to buy a good game they already pirated. If you really want to know if you'll like a game before you buy it you can always rent it like most normal people would, you can rent a game for a week for under 5 bucks, or you can use Redbox or Gamefly or Blockbuster.

I completely understand that you want to test drive a game before buying it, and I really love demos, but just because you don't get a demo doesn't mean you have to resort to theft.

I buy physical copies at places like Wal Mart, Best Buy, Target, etc... None of those places will take back an opened game for a refund. PC games won't be taken back at all if opened. Console games can be exchanged for the same title. Those are the industry standards.

We are talking about people who pirate a game so they can demo it, not people who pirate a game to keep. Two different groups of people but there are overlaps. In fact, once a person has been introduced to piracy because of nasty DRM or to see if a game will run on their PC, there's no going back. The shit cannot be put back in the horse at that point. Once you've done something once and learned how, it's easier the second time and that is the number one reason why devs should make demos and why nasty DRM should be avoided.

Sorry, back to the group of people who just want to demo the game (for free as a demo should be). Those people are just refusing to buy blind and think they are smart people. Smarter than me actually since I have dropped alot of money on bad games over the years.

Can you rent a PC game to see if it runs well on your PC? Suggesting renting to people who pirate PC games is pointless.

Which is worse, devs requiring you to buy blind or you downloading a game to demo it and then buying it?

I understand that people will pirate to demo, but do you honestly think that people like that exist in any great number? Because I sure don't.

Buy your games from Gamestop from now on by the way, you have 7 days to decide if you like the game and you can get 100% refund. We can debate the merits of second hand games too if you feel like it.

All I'm saying is that there are better ways of seeing if you'll like the game than pirating, honestly we can go on for days as we already have, I know nothing you will say is likely to persuade me, I say we just agree to disagree while we're still civil.

I'll be in Gamestop tomorrow to pick up Zelda and I will ask them if they will accept returns for opened PC games. I already know the answer but I'll ask anyway. Here's a hint: Gamestop doesn't sell used PC games and they won't let you return them either.

Having never bought a PC game from Gamestop I didn't know that little nugget of truth, good day.

 

[kebab4you]

We live in a time where most people that buy games frequently got a steady internet connection and as such you can research the game other way then through a demo.

Only time I have done it is when the developers have gone out of business and only way I can get it is through piracy.

 

[Dexiro]

nope.

there are no valid reasons for piracy.

it's always up to you whether or not you think you're comfortable with doing it, but there aren't any excuses that make it "ok".

I'd argue that it does have some justifications, albeit very very few.

For example I downloaded Morrowind to see if my PC could run it, and upon seeing that It did I immediately bought the game on Steam. I've generally found system specs to be unreliable, perhaps because the PC I had at the time was ancient and completely backwards.

However pirating a game to provide yourself with a gameplay demo isn't ok.

I mean how long would you play for? Do you seriously trust yourself to delete the game after that amount of time? Perhaps the game doesn't kick in for a while, are you going to keep playing waiting for the good bits to start? Their are just far too many unknowns, and often developers have a good reason for not releasing a demo. I also guarantee most people would say "I didn't like it enough to buy it but I'm gonna keep it anyway".

If developers want to avoid those unknowns that then they should provide a demo that they designed. The good reason why developers don't offer a demo is usually because they don't want to spend the money to make one. Well, there are consequences. Buying blind isn't something that should be expected of consumers.

You're not buying a game blind though. Buying a game blind would be buying a game that you know nothing about. If a game has been long enough to be pirated then there's probably a plethora of both professional and user reviews, and probably gameplay videos too. Those are there for to help you make an informed choice.

I just don't know how many times I am going to have to say this.

THE MAIN PURPOSE OF A DEMO IS TO SEE IF THE GAME WILL RUN ON YOUR PC. Reviews, rentals and used copies are NOT an option!

If you reread my first post I did say that I thought demo'ing a game just to see if it runs on your PC was justified. And you infact did not say anything regarding the reasons for demo'ing a game.

 

[Epona]

nope.

there are no valid reasons for piracy.

it's always up to you whether or not you think you're comfortable with doing it, but there aren't any excuses that make it "ok".

I'd argue that it does have some justifications, albeit very very few.

For example I downloaded Morrowind to see if my PC could run it, and upon seeing that It did I immediately bought the game on Steam. I've generally found system specs to be unreliable, perhaps because the PC I had at the time was ancient and completely backwards.

However pirating a game to provide yourself with a gameplay demo isn't ok.

I mean how long would you play for? Do you seriously trust yourself to delete the game after that amount of time? Perhaps the game doesn't kick in for a while, are you going to keep playing waiting for the good bits to start? Their are just far too many unknowns, and often developers have a good reason for not releasing a demo. I also guarantee most people would say "I didn't like it enough to buy it but I'm gonna keep it anyway".

If developers want to avoid those unknowns that then they should provide a demo that they designed. The good reason why developers don't offer a demo is usually because they don't want to spend the money to make one. Well, there are consequences. Buying blind isn't something that should be expected of consumers.

You're not buying a game blind though. Buying a game blind would be buying a game that you know nothing about. If a game has been long enough to be pirated then there's probably a plethora of both professional and user reviews, and probably gameplay videos too. Those are there for to help you make an informed choice.

I just don't know how many times I am going to have to say this.

THE MAIN PURPOSE OF A DEMO IS TO SEE IF THE GAME WILL RUN ON YOUR PC. Reviews, rentals and used copies are NOT an option!

If you reread my first post I did say that I thought demo'ing a game just to see if it runs on your PC was justified. And you infact did not say anything regarding the reasons for demo'ing a game.

I have said it more than once just in the last hour. Anyway, it seems we agree.

 

[Epona]

So I had this come up in a debate with my friend, if a gaming company doesn't provide a demo for a game is it ok to pirate it, to try it out for yourself?

That's like saying "If a car dealer doesn't let me test drive this sedan is it ok to steal it?" Unless there is literally no way to legally obtain a game you have no right to pirate it.

I'm not going to march around with a picket sign saying that pirating is litterally the worst thing for the industry, but unless you absolutly need something and you cannot obtain it through proper channels then you shouldn't steal it.

Where cars are concerned, there are Lemon Laws.

I'm sure you got the point, just because you can't try something out before purchasing it doesn't give you a right to steal it.

I am sure you missed the point. Software does not have Lemon Laws so if you buy a game that should run on your PC (you are at or above the min specs) and it doesn't run or if it is extremely buggy, you can't return it.

Games are released in extremely buggy states these days. Just in the last week there are two games that released buggy as hell Skyrim and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7. Skyrim has serious framerate and texture issues plus a few broken quests as I understand and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7 on the PC won't even run because of faulty DRM.

Now tell me, if you bought a car that kept slowing down to 20 MPH or that wouldn't even start, what would you do? I'll bet you would demand a test drive before you buy a car anyway and isn't that all that people are asking for here?

I understand, but a demo isn't some right that we all have, if you can't get a demo and your not sure then don't buy the game, and while there are no lemon laws for game any dev who actually cares about the customer will put out a free patch, or a helpful gamer will.

The point still stands, a lack of a demo doesn't justify what is essentially theft.

No one has argued that demos are a right but that is irrelevant since most things in general are not a right. However, day one patches have become all too common and that shows just how careless devs have become. Last gen and before there were no patches and the game simply had to work out of the box. Even though games can be patched, they aren't always patched. For example, guess who fixed Oblivion and guess who didn't? Bethesda wasn't shy about selling you Horse Armor but actually patching the game is something they largely left to the mod community.

You can demo most products, want to try out that new TV? Buy it and if it sucks, take it back for a refund. What's wrong with people doing the internet equivalent of that for software?

A demo of a TV and a demo of a video game are really quite different, a TV is a completed physical product, when you demo it you are basically just borrowing the TV you may or may not buy, you aren't borrowing a part of the TV while the rest is still in developement.

And I agree on your point about refunds, if you buy a thing and it's shit get a refund, but you have to pay for something to get a refund, if you pirate a game and you don't like it than you just stole something that you turned out not to like, so why not just buy it? Best case scenario it's money well spent, worst case you get your money back.

As for digital copies, well I've never bought a digital copy of a game in my life so I really don't know if refunds are applicable to that line of thinking, but even then you can just but the game for PC and install it off the disc.

But honestly are we going to agree on this matter any time soon? Because we've been going back and forth for like 2 or 3 days now.

I love the "but video games are different than every other product in existance and should have special anti-consumer rules" argument. You do too I see.

Let me explain the whole refund thing to you. I buy a TV, it costs $1000, it sucks so I take it back and get my $1000 back. I am out $0. I download a game, it sucks, I delete it, I am out $0. I buy a game, it sucks, I can't return it, I am out $60.

Game companies want you to buy blind but you don't have to. If they want to discourage honest people from downloading a full game demo, they should make a demo for honest people to download.

I really do just love that argument, I just wanna cozy on up to it by the fireplace, but back to the matter at hand.

Where are you getting your games at? Because I always get a refund for shit games, do you exclusively download digital copies? And besides, what if you pirate the game and you like it, do you just not buy it and keep the stolen version? Because that's kind of shitty.

If you actually do want to buy it after pirating I guess that's not to bad, but I highly doubt many people would go out to buy a good game they already pirated. If you really want to know if you'll like a game before you buy it you can always rent it like most normal people would, you can rent a game for a week for under 5 bucks, or you can use Redbox or Gamefly or Blockbuster.

I completely understand that you want to test drive a game before buying it, and I really love demos, but just because you don't get a demo doesn't mean you have to resort to theft.

I buy physical copies at places like Wal Mart, Best Buy, Target, etc... None of those places will take back an opened game for a refund. PC games won't be taken back at all if opened. Console games can be exchanged for the same title. Those are the industry standards.

We are talking about people who pirate a game so they can demo it, not people who pirate a game to keep. Two different groups of people but there are overlaps. In fact, once a person has been introduced to piracy because of nasty DRM or to see if a game will run on their PC, there's no going back. The shit cannot be put back in the horse at that point. Once you've done something once and learned how, it's easier the second time and that is the number one reason why devs should make demos and why nasty DRM should be avoided.

Sorry, back to the group of people who just want to demo the game (for free as a demo should be). Those people are just refusing to buy blind and think they are smart people. Smarter than me actually since I have dropped alot of money on bad games over the years.

Can you rent a PC game to see if it runs well on your PC? Suggesting renting to people who pirate PC games is pointless.

Which is worse, devs requiring you to buy blind or you downloading a game to demo it and then buying it?

I understand that people will pirate to demo, but do you honestly think that people like that exist in any great number? Because I sure don't.

Buy your games from Gamestop from now on by the way, you have 7 days to decide if you like the game and you can get 100% refund. We can debate the merits of second hand games too if you feel like it.

All I'm saying is that there are better ways of seeing if you'll like the game than pirating, honestly we can go on for days as we already have, I know nothing you will say is likely to persuade me, I say we just agree to disagree while we're still civil.

I'll be in Gamestop tomorrow to pick up Zelda and I will ask them if they will accept returns for opened PC games. I already know the answer but I'll ask anyway. Here's a hint: Gamestop doesn't sell used PC games and they won't let you return them either.

Having never bought a PC game from Gamestop I didn't know that little nugget of truth, good day.

You buy a game on console, you know it's going to work (excluding Bethesda games on the PS3). On PC it isn't that simple and often the specs are complete BS. Still, once you take that leap of faith, your stuck with it. There are no refunds and no second hand market.

My PC specs are atleast double the recommended (not minimum) specs for Lego Pirates but by the time I turned all the graphics down (had no choice) to "below Wii quality", it still had framerate issues in the hub area. It should be illegal to publish false specs but it happens all the time. Lego Pirates did have a demo but I think the hub area wasn't in the demo, the laggiest area of the game.

 

[Whyso]

I can remember something i saw once

Remember kids, piracy is the best option (although i think they only refered to kindle e-books but still)

 

[LarenzoAOG]

So I had this come up in a debate with my friend, if a gaming company doesn't provide a demo for a game is it ok to pirate it, to try it out for yourself?

That's like saying "If a car dealer doesn't let me test drive this sedan is it ok to steal it?" Unless there is literally no way to legally obtain a game you have no right to pirate it.

I'm not going to march around with a picket sign saying that pirating is litterally the worst thing for the industry, but unless you absolutly need something and you cannot obtain it through proper channels then you shouldn't steal it.

Where cars are concerned, there are Lemon Laws.

I'm sure you got the point, just because you can't try something out before purchasing it doesn't give you a right to steal it.

I am sure you missed the point. Software does not have Lemon Laws so if you buy a game that should run on your PC (you are at or above the min specs) and it doesn't run or if it is extremely buggy, you can't return it.

Games are released in extremely buggy states these days. Just in the last week there are two games that released buggy as hell Skyrim and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7. Skyrim has serious framerate and texture issues plus a few broken quests as I understand and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7 on the PC won't even run because of faulty DRM.

Now tell me, if you bought a car that kept slowing down to 20 MPH or that wouldn't even start, what would you do? I'll bet you would demand a test drive before you buy a car anyway and isn't that all that people are asking for here?

I understand, but a demo isn't some right that we all have, if you can't get a demo and your not sure then don't buy the game, and while there are no lemon laws for game any dev who actually cares about the customer will put out a free patch, or a helpful gamer will.

The point still stands, a lack of a demo doesn't justify what is essentially theft.

No one has argued that demos are a right but that is irrelevant since most things in general are not a right. However, day one patches have become all too common and that shows just how careless devs have become. Last gen and before there were no patches and the game simply had to work out of the box. Even though games can be patched, they aren't always patched. For example, guess who fixed Oblivion and guess who didn't? Bethesda wasn't shy about selling you Horse Armor but actually patching the game is something they largely left to the mod community.

You can demo most products, want to try out that new TV? Buy it and if it sucks, take it back for a refund. What's wrong with people doing the internet equivalent of that for software?

A demo of a TV and a demo of a video game are really quite different, a TV is a completed physical product, when you demo it you are basically just borrowing the TV you may or may not buy, you aren't borrowing a part of the TV while the rest is still in developement.

And I agree on your point about refunds, if you buy a thing and it's shit get a refund, but you have to pay for something to get a refund, if you pirate a game and you don't like it than you just stole something that you turned out not to like, so why not just buy it? Best case scenario it's money well spent, worst case you get your money back.

As for digital copies, well I've never bought a digital copy of a game in my life so I really don't know if refunds are applicable to that line of thinking, but even then you can just but the game for PC and install it off the disc.

But honestly are we going to agree on this matter any time soon? Because we've been going back and forth for like 2 or 3 days now.

I love the "but video games are different than every other product in existance and should have special anti-consumer rules" argument. You do too I see.

Let me explain the whole refund thing to you. I buy a TV, it costs $1000, it sucks so I take it back and get my $1000 back. I am out $0. I download a game, it sucks, I delete it, I am out $0. I buy a game, it sucks, I can't return it, I am out $60.

Game companies want you to buy blind but you don't have to. If they want to discourage honest people from downloading a full game demo, they should make a demo for honest people to download.

I really do just love that argument, I just wanna cozy on up to it by the fireplace, but back to the matter at hand.

Where are you getting your games at? Because I always get a refund for shit games, do you exclusively download digital copies? And besides, what if you pirate the game and you like it, do you just not buy it and keep the stolen version? Because that's kind of shitty.

If you actually do want to buy it after pirating I guess that's not to bad, but I highly doubt many people would go out to buy a good game they already pirated. If you really want to know if you'll like a game before you buy it you can always rent it like most normal people would, you can rent a game for a week for under 5 bucks, or you can use Redbox or Gamefly or Blockbuster.

I completely understand that you want to test drive a game before buying it, and I really love demos, but just because you don't get a demo doesn't mean you have to resort to theft.

I buy physical copies at places like Wal Mart, Best Buy, Target, etc... None of those places will take back an opened game for a refund. PC games won't be taken back at all if opened. Console games can be exchanged for the same title. Those are the industry standards.

We are talking about people who pirate a game so they can demo it, not people who pirate a game to keep. Two different groups of people but there are overlaps. In fact, once a person has been introduced to piracy because of nasty DRM or to see if a game will run on their PC, there's no going back. The shit cannot be put back in the horse at that point. Once you've done something once and learned how, it's easier the second time and that is the number one reason why devs should make demos and why nasty DRM should be avoided.

Sorry, back to the group of people who just want to demo the game (for free as a demo should be). Those people are just refusing to buy blind and think they are smart people. Smarter than me actually since I have dropped alot of money on bad games over the years.

Can you rent a PC game to see if it runs well on your PC? Suggesting renting to people who pirate PC games is pointless.

Which is worse, devs requiring you to buy blind or you downloading a game to demo it and then buying it?

I understand that people will pirate to demo, but do you honestly think that people like that exist in any great number? Because I sure don't.

Buy your games from Gamestop from now on by the way, you have 7 days to decide if you like the game and you can get 100% refund. We can debate the merits of second hand games too if you feel like it.

All I'm saying is that there are better ways of seeing if you'll like the game than pirating, honestly we can go on for days as we already have, I know nothing you will say is likely to persuade me, I say we just agree to disagree while we're still civil.

I'll be in Gamestop tomorrow to pick up Zelda and I will ask them if they will accept returns for opened PC games. I already know the answer but I'll ask anyway. Here's a hint: Gamestop doesn't sell used PC games and they won't let you return them either.

Having never bought a PC game from Gamestop I didn't know that little nugget of truth, good day.

You buy a game on console, you know it's going to work (excluding Bethesda games on the PS3). On PC it isn't that simple and often the specs are complete BS. Still, once you take that leap of faith, your stuck with it. There are no refunds and no second hand market.

My PC specs are atleast double the recommended (not minimum) specs for Lego Pirates but by the time I turned all the graphics down (had no choice) to "below Wii quality", it still had framerate issues in the hub area. It should be illegal to publish false specs but it happens all the time. Lego Pirates did have a demo but I think the hub area wasn't in the demo, the laggiest area of the game.

Well the matter of falsifying specs is a completely different one than pirating, although I see how one could lead to the other, that doesn't change the fact that this little debate has dragged on for too long.

 

[midknight129]

This [http://www.atomic-robo.com/2010/12/22/internet-piracy-of-the-19th-century/]

 

[Epona]

So I had this come up in a debate with my friend, if a gaming company doesn't provide a demo for a game is it ok to pirate it, to try it out for yourself?

That's like saying "If a car dealer doesn't let me test drive this sedan is it ok to steal it?" Unless there is literally no way to legally obtain a game you have no right to pirate it.

I'm not going to march around with a picket sign saying that pirating is litterally the worst thing for the industry, but unless you absolutly need something and you cannot obtain it through proper channels then you shouldn't steal it.

Where cars are concerned, there are Lemon Laws.

I'm sure you got the point, just because you can't try something out before purchasing it doesn't give you a right to steal it.

I am sure you missed the point. Software does not have Lemon Laws so if you buy a game that should run on your PC (you are at or above the min specs) and it doesn't run or if it is extremely buggy, you can't return it.

Games are released in extremely buggy states these days. Just in the last week there are two games that released buggy as hell Skyrim and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7. Skyrim has serious framerate and texture issues plus a few broken quests as I understand and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7 on the PC won't even run because of faulty DRM.

Now tell me, if you bought a car that kept slowing down to 20 MPH or that wouldn't even start, what would you do? I'll bet you would demand a test drive before you buy a car anyway and isn't that all that people are asking for here?

I understand, but a demo isn't some right that we all have, if you can't get a demo and your not sure then don't buy the game, and while there are no lemon laws for game any dev who actually cares about the customer will put out a free patch, or a helpful gamer will.

The point still stands, a lack of a demo doesn't justify what is essentially theft.

No one has argued that demos are a right but that is irrelevant since most things in general are not a right. However, day one patches have become all too common and that shows just how careless devs have become. Last gen and before there were no patches and the game simply had to work out of the box. Even though games can be patched, they aren't always patched. For example, guess who fixed Oblivion and guess who didn't? Bethesda wasn't shy about selling you Horse Armor but actually patching the game is something they largely left to the mod community.

You can demo most products, want to try out that new TV? Buy it and if it sucks, take it back for a refund. What's wrong with people doing the internet equivalent of that for software?

A demo of a TV and a demo of a video game are really quite different, a TV is a completed physical product, when you demo it you are basically just borrowing the TV you may or may not buy, you aren't borrowing a part of the TV while the rest is still in developement.

And I agree on your point about refunds, if you buy a thing and it's shit get a refund, but you have to pay for something to get a refund, if you pirate a game and you don't like it than you just stole something that you turned out not to like, so why not just buy it? Best case scenario it's money well spent, worst case you get your money back.

As for digital copies, well I've never bought a digital copy of a game in my life so I really don't know if refunds are applicable to that line of thinking, but even then you can just but the game for PC and install it off the disc.

But honestly are we going to agree on this matter any time soon? Because we've been going back and forth for like 2 or 3 days now.

I love the "but video games are different than every other product in existance and should have special anti-consumer rules" argument. You do too I see.

Let me explain the whole refund thing to you. I buy a TV, it costs $1000, it sucks so I take it back and get my $1000 back. I am out $0. I download a game, it sucks, I delete it, I am out $0. I buy a game, it sucks, I can't return it, I am out $60.

Game companies want you to buy blind but you don't have to. If they want to discourage honest people from downloading a full game demo, they should make a demo for honest people to download.

I really do just love that argument, I just wanna cozy on up to it by the fireplace, but back to the matter at hand.

Where are you getting your games at? Because I always get a refund for shit games, do you exclusively download digital copies? And besides, what if you pirate the game and you like it, do you just not buy it and keep the stolen version? Because that's kind of shitty.

If you actually do want to buy it after pirating I guess that's not to bad, but I highly doubt many people would go out to buy a good game they already pirated. If you really want to know if you'll like a game before you buy it you can always rent it like most normal people would, you can rent a game for a week for under 5 bucks, or you can use Redbox or Gamefly or Blockbuster.

I completely understand that you want to test drive a game before buying it, and I really love demos, but just because you don't get a demo doesn't mean you have to resort to theft.

I buy physical copies at places like Wal Mart, Best Buy, Target, etc... None of those places will take back an opened game for a refund. PC games won't be taken back at all if opened. Console games can be exchanged for the same title. Those are the industry standards.

We are talking about people who pirate a game so they can demo it, not people who pirate a game to keep. Two different groups of people but there are overlaps. In fact, once a person has been introduced to piracy because of nasty DRM or to see if a game will run on their PC, there's no going back. The shit cannot be put back in the horse at that point. Once you've done something once and learned how, it's easier the second time and that is the number one reason why devs should make demos and why nasty DRM should be avoided.

Sorry, back to the group of people who just want to demo the game (for free as a demo should be). Those people are just refusing to buy blind and think they are smart people. Smarter than me actually since I have dropped alot of money on bad games over the years.

Can you rent a PC game to see if it runs well on your PC? Suggesting renting to people who pirate PC games is pointless.

Which is worse, devs requiring you to buy blind or you downloading a game to demo it and then buying it?

I understand that people will pirate to demo, but do you honestly think that people like that exist in any great number? Because I sure don't.

Buy your games from Gamestop from now on by the way, you have 7 days to decide if you like the game and you can get 100% refund. We can debate the merits of second hand games too if you feel like it.

All I'm saying is that there are better ways of seeing if you'll like the game than pirating, honestly we can go on for days as we already have, I know nothing you will say is likely to persuade me, I say we just agree to disagree while we're still civil.

I'll be in Gamestop tomorrow to pick up Zelda and I will ask them if they will accept returns for opened PC games. I already know the answer but I'll ask anyway. Here's a hint: Gamestop doesn't sell used PC games and they won't let you return them either.

Having never bought a PC game from Gamestop I didn't know that little nugget of truth, good day.

You buy a game on console, you know it's going to work (excluding Bethesda games on the PS3). On PC it isn't that simple and often the specs are complete BS. Still, once you take that leap of faith, your stuck with it. There are no refunds and no second hand market.

My PC specs are atleast double the recommended (not minimum) specs for Lego Pirates but by the time I turned all the graphics down (had no choice) to "below Wii quality", it still had framerate issues in the hub area. It should be illegal to publish false specs but it happens all the time. Lego Pirates did have a demo but I think the hub area wasn't in the demo, the laggiest area of the game.

Well the matter of falsifying specs is a completely different one than pirating, although I see how one could lead to the other, that doesn't change the fact that this little debate has dragged on for too long.

Absolutely it leads to piracy. Getting burned because the minimum specs are way off and you can't even run a game (whilst you also can't take it back) only needs to happen once to make a person less trusting and less likely to buy blindly. In fact, I think this debate exists largely because people don't trust the specs on the box anymore.

 

[LarenzoAOG]

So I had this come up in a debate with my friend, if a gaming company doesn't provide a demo for a game is it ok to pirate it, to try it out for yourself?

That's like saying "If a car dealer doesn't let me test drive this sedan is it ok to steal it?" Unless there is literally no way to legally obtain a game you have no right to pirate it.

I'm not going to march around with a picket sign saying that pirating is litterally the worst thing for the industry, but unless you absolutly need something and you cannot obtain it through proper channels then you shouldn't steal it.

Where cars are concerned, there are Lemon Laws.

I'm sure you got the point, just because you can't try something out before purchasing it doesn't give you a right to steal it.

I am sure you missed the point. Software does not have Lemon Laws so if you buy a game that should run on your PC (you are at or above the min specs) and it doesn't run or if it is extremely buggy, you can't return it.

Games are released in extremely buggy states these days. Just in the last week there are two games that released buggy as hell Skyrim and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7. Skyrim has serious framerate and texture issues plus a few broken quests as I understand and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7 on the PC won't even run because of faulty DRM.

Now tell me, if you bought a car that kept slowing down to 20 MPH or that wouldn't even start, what would you do? I'll bet you would demand a test drive before you buy a car anyway and isn't that all that people are asking for here?

I understand, but a demo isn't some right that we all have, if you can't get a demo and your not sure then don't buy the game, and while there are no lemon laws for game any dev who actually cares about the customer will put out a free patch, or a helpful gamer will.

The point still stands, a lack of a demo doesn't justify what is essentially theft.

No one has argued that demos are a right but that is irrelevant since most things in general are not a right. However, day one patches have become all too common and that shows just how careless devs have become. Last gen and before there were no patches and the game simply had to work out of the box. Even though games can be patched, they aren't always patched. For example, guess who fixed Oblivion and guess who didn't? Bethesda wasn't shy about selling you Horse Armor but actually patching the game is something they largely left to the mod community.

You can demo most products, want to try out that new TV? Buy it and if it sucks, take it back for a refund. What's wrong with people doing the internet equivalent of that for software?

A demo of a TV and a demo of a video game are really quite different, a TV is a completed physical product, when you demo it you are basically just borrowing the TV you may or may not buy, you aren't borrowing a part of the TV while the rest is still in developement.

And I agree on your point about refunds, if you buy a thing and it's shit get a refund, but you have to pay for something to get a refund, if you pirate a game and you don't like it than you just stole something that you turned out not to like, so why not just buy it? Best case scenario it's money well spent, worst case you get your money back.

As for digital copies, well I've never bought a digital copy of a game in my life so I really don't know if refunds are applicable to that line of thinking, but even then you can just but the game for PC and install it off the disc.

But honestly are we going to agree on this matter any time soon? Because we've been going back and forth for like 2 or 3 days now.

I love the "but video games are different than every other product in existance and should have special anti-consumer rules" argument. You do too I see.

Let me explain the whole refund thing to you. I buy a TV, it costs $1000, it sucks so I take it back and get my $1000 back. I am out $0. I download a game, it sucks, I delete it, I am out $0. I buy a game, it sucks, I can't return it, I am out $60.

Game companies want you to buy blind but you don't have to. If they want to discourage honest people from downloading a full game demo, they should make a demo for honest people to download.

I really do just love that argument, I just wanna cozy on up to it by the fireplace, but back to the matter at hand.

Where are you getting your games at? Because I always get a refund for shit games, do you exclusively download digital copies? And besides, what if you pirate the game and you like it, do you just not buy it and keep the stolen version? Because that's kind of shitty.

If you actually do want to buy it after pirating I guess that's not to bad, but I highly doubt many people would go out to buy a good game they already pirated. If you really want to know if you'll like a game before you buy it you can always rent it like most normal people would, you can rent a game for a week for under 5 bucks, or you can use Redbox or Gamefly or Blockbuster.

I completely understand that you want to test drive a game before buying it, and I really love demos, but just because you don't get a demo doesn't mean you have to resort to theft.

I buy physical copies at places like Wal Mart, Best Buy, Target, etc... None of those places will take back an opened game for a refund. PC games won't be taken back at all if opened. Console games can be exchanged for the same title. Those are the industry standards.

We are talking about people who pirate a game so they can demo it, not people who pirate a game to keep. Two different groups of people but there are overlaps. In fact, once a person has been introduced to piracy because of nasty DRM or to see if a game will run on their PC, there's no going back. The shit cannot be put back in the horse at that point. Once you've done something once and learned how, it's easier the second time and that is the number one reason why devs should make demos and why nasty DRM should be avoided.

Sorry, back to the group of people who just want to demo the game (for free as a demo should be). Those people are just refusing to buy blind and think they are smart people. Smarter than me actually since I have dropped alot of money on bad games over the years.

Can you rent a PC game to see if it runs well on your PC? Suggesting renting to people who pirate PC games is pointless.

Which is worse, devs requiring you to buy blind or you downloading a game to demo it and then buying it?

I understand that people will pirate to demo, but do you honestly think that people like that exist in any great number? Because I sure don't.

Buy your games from Gamestop from now on by the way, you have 7 days to decide if you like the game and you can get 100% refund. We can debate the merits of second hand games too if you feel like it.

All I'm saying is that there are better ways of seeing if you'll like the game than pirating, honestly we can go on for days as we already have, I know nothing you will say is likely to persuade me, I say we just agree to disagree while we're still civil.

I'll be in Gamestop tomorrow to pick up Zelda and I will ask them if they will accept returns for opened PC games. I already know the answer but I'll ask anyway. Here's a hint: Gamestop doesn't sell used PC games and they won't let you return them either.

Having never bought a PC game from Gamestop I didn't know that little nugget of truth, good day.

You buy a game on console, you know it's going to work (excluding Bethesda games on the PS3). On PC it isn't that simple and often the specs are complete BS. Still, once you take that leap of faith, your stuck with it. There are no refunds and no second hand market.

My PC specs are atleast double the recommended (not minimum) specs for Lego Pirates but by the time I turned all the graphics down (had no choice) to "below Wii quality", it still had framerate issues in the hub area. It should be illegal to publish false specs but it happens all the time. Lego Pirates did have a demo but I think the hub area wasn't in the demo, the laggiest area of the game.

Well the matter of falsifying specs is a completely different one than pirating, although I see how one could lead to the other, that doesn't change the fact that this little debate has dragged on for too long.

Absolutely it leads to piracy. Getting burned because the minimum specs are way off and you can't even run a game (whilst you also can't take it back) only needs to happen once to make a person less trusting and less likely to buy blindly. In fact, I think this debate exists largely because people don't trust the specs on the box anymore.

My god, it's like the end of Watchmen, I'm Ozymandias and you're Night Owl, I no longer give a shit but you just keep going hoping I'll start debating you again, I'm done with this conversation, we've been going for 2 days and neither of us has swayed the other, I'm dropping it, you may want to as well or the debate will become very one-sided.