If A Random Girl Walks Up and Punches You Would You Hit Her Back?

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Tradjus

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Apr 25, 2011
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No, I don't think I'd be capable of much of anything for a few seconds after being randomly hit in the face by some woman I didn't know.
If she -kept- hitting me I'd just pull my carry gun and tell her to back the fuck off, otherwise I'd call the cops with my cell.
 

CorruptCor3

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May 17, 2010
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Maybe...I do believe in gender equality in all senses, not just the positive ones. But then again, I probably wouldn't even punch a dude back because I am a big softie.
 

Reaper195

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Jul 5, 2009
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*Walking down street, woman randomly punches me out of nowhere*
"Wha...fuck you!"
*Punch back*

I have no problem punching women. But then again, like men, I'll only hit someone if I feel they deserve it. So yes, I would punch her back almost immediately.

Edit:
Vilcus said:
I wear glasses, so I'd have to drop her on principle. These things are expensive.
An also this. My current pair cost me a little over $400NZD.
 

Eynimeb

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Jun 15, 2012
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agrajagthetesty said:
While I don't deny the existence of peer pressure in general, I think the implication that it exists in any serious way around false rape charges is somewhat absurd - for peer pressure to work, there needs to be an established culture of whatever the peers are pressuring towards, and I don't think there's evidence for that with false charges. I, personally, have never heard any woman advocate such a thing, and have only ever seen people condemn false charges. Obviously, that doesn't count as evidence either - but unless either of us runs into a real study on this topic, we're probably best sticking with a discussion of the numbers given by the police and other sources, since they cover issues rather more solid and easily defined than "peer pressure".
(cut down the quote block for conservation of electrons)

-You're correct. The 60% figure includes the 50% who decide not to press charges. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but over here, that is considered a clear sign that someone was not telling the truth.

-It'd be nearly impossible to get an investigation into abuses by the police here. Though they take rape charges very seriously, they do so because those are the social norms, not because the police are not corrupt. No investigation into the integrity of the police is going to have a snowball's chance in hell. The police, justice, local governments, they all know and support eachother. Dutch society ultimately *is* extremely corrupt. I could go on an endless tirade about this, but there are not enough electrons in the internet.

-You're correct about what I meant about old priviliges and new equality being a catalyst for resentment. One can't have it both ways. One can *try* of course, certainly when there are countless men who will accept a completely one-sided relationship.

I know on an intellectual level that defense and support of rapists exists in many parts of the world, but beyond that it is something I can't fathom on an emotional level. I'm a fairly cynical person, but even I don't believe hate of women is somehow a fundamental part of men. I *do* believe that the notions of right and wrong are artificial. It is good that we have them, but they are not universal.

I believe there are many men who are extremely frustrated about women. I think most resentful comments on internet fora are from them. That makes it pretty much impossible to criticize women, because one will immediately be lumped in with that group, and verbally attacked by hordes of white knights. I myself am one of countless males on the internet who have never been with a woman, and likely never will. But I try not to let that turn into anger. People don't choose what they are attracted to, I can't hold them responsible for what they feel when they see me.

-The peer pressure thing exists when it gets brought up. If a group of women supports it, or doesn't support it, then that is peer pressure in action. If there are places where peer support for rapists exists, why is it such a stretch that support for false rape charges exists? I have met women who are simply ruthless or selfish, I have met women who feel that women are at war with men and must give no quarter, I have met women who believe they are better and deserve more than men. I have also met women who do believe in fairness and justice, but they are in *my* experience not the majority. But you're absolutely right, my experiences are not statistically useful.
 

agrajagthetesty

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Jan 29, 2010
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(I'm going to use a lot of electrons here, my apologies! My style is to respond to specific points individually, and I find this layout easier to work with.)

Eynimeb said:
-You're correct. The 60% figure includes the 50% who decide not to press charges. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but over here, that is considered a clear sign that someone was not telling the truth.
This may be cultural, I'm not sure. But I've already offered you reasons why I think not pressing charges doesn't automatically mean that the person was lying (any more than pressing charges necessarily means that they're telling the truth). So, I'm going to continue to view that 60% figure as downright false. In fact, it seemed earlier in the conversation that you agreed with me that not pressing charges doesn't equal a false report? [a href="http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.378738-If-A-Random-Girl-Walks-Up-and-Punches-You-Would-You-Hit-Her-Back?page=11#14852027"]When I said that "somebody recanting or choosing not to press charges does not automatically mean that their report was false", and you responded "You're right, it doesn't".[/a] So do you agree with me that the 60% figure isn't reliable, since it relies on that flawed assumption?

-It'd be nearly impossible to get an investigation into abuses by the police here. Though they take rape charges very seriously, they do so because those are the social norms, not because the police are not corrupt. No investigation into the integrity of the police is going to have a snowball's chance in hell. The police, justice, local governments, they all know and support eachother. Dutch society ultimately *is* extremely corrupt. I could go on an endless tirade about this, but there are not enough electrons in the internet.
This is unfortunate. But corruption is pretty much a fact of life in this world. I like to think it's still within our scope to debate the issues, though.

-You're correct about what I meant about old priviliges and new equality being a catalyst for resentment. One can't have it both ways. One can *try* of course, certainly when there are countless men who will accept a completely one-sided relationship.

I know on an intellectual level that defense and support of rapists exists in many parts of the world, but beyond that it is something I can't fathom on an emotional level. I'm a fairly cynical person, but even I don't believe hate of women is somehow a fundamental part of men. I *do* believe that the notions of right and wrong are artificial. It is good that we have them, but they are not universal.

I believe there are many men who are extremely frustrated about women. I think most resentful comments on internet fora are from them. That makes it pretty much impossible to criticize women, because one will immediately be lumped in with that group, and verbally attacked by hordes of white knights. I myself am one of countless males on the internet who have never been with a woman, and likely never will. But I try not to let that turn into anger. People don't choose what they are attracted to, I can't hold them responsible for what they feel when they see me.
I think to a certain extent, we won't get very far towards agreement on this particular topic. Our approaches are too different. You say that "there are countless men who will accept a completely one-sided relationship"; I look at my experiences and the studies I've read and see a different picture. You separate "hate of women" from being "extremely frustrated about women"; I think both feelings involve sexism, as being "frustrated" about a group of people requires generalisation and some level of belief that the members of that group are all the same. Ultimately, we're probably both approaching the issue according to the point of view of our own gender. Which is, you know, unsurprising.

There are some things you say which I will respond to directly, though. First, the idea of "having it both ways". I certainly can't speak for "women", but I can say that for myself, gender-related chivalry is unwanted - insulting, in fact. It relies on an assumption that women are helpless to do things for themselves.

Second, I'm very glad to hear that you can't fathom defending rape! And I agree that hate of women is not a fundamental part of men. Misogyny is societal, and women are capable of perpetuating it too.

Third, I am encouraged to see you say this: "I myself am one of countless males on the internet who have never been with a woman, and likely never will. But I try not to let that turn into anger. People don't choose what they are attracted to, I can't hold them responsible for what they feel when they see me." This contrasts with many men on these forums, who do seem to resent women for not expressing attraction to them, and it's nice to see someone take a reasonable approach. I also happen to think that those men's resentment and sense of entitlement are off-putting and therefore likely to perpetuate the cycle of women's lack of interest, whereas the feelings you express aren't.

Fourth, I think that wanting to "criticize women" without being lumped into a group with unpleasant feelings towards women is... kind of unrealistic? Since "criticising women" as a homogeneous group relies, again, on generalisation. One can criticise individual women, of course, and sometimes tendencies among women (depending on the specifics, and as long as one can prove those tendencies and isn't relying on stereotypes) - but "criticising women" as a whole means taking a group of roughly 3.5 billion people and talking about them as if they're all the same.

-The peer pressure thing exists when it gets brought up. If a group of women supports it, or doesn't support it, then that is peer pressure in action. If there are places where peer support for rapists exists, why is it such a stretch that support for false rape charges exists? I have met women who are simply ruthless or selfish, I have met women who feel that women are at war with men and must give no quarter, I have met women who believe they are better and deserve more than men. I have also met women who do believe in fairness and justice, but they are in *my* experience not the majority. But you're absolutely right, my experiences are not statistically useful.
It seems from this that we have different definitions of peer pressure - I was imagining a culture-wide phenomenon while your definition requires only a group holding the same opinion. In that case, my thoughts on the false-charge-supporting people you describe are pretty much the same as your thoughts on the existence of people who support or defend rape: it seems there must be some people like that out there, but I find it impossible to fathom or understand.
 

Eynimeb

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Jun 15, 2012
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agrajagthetesty said:
(I'm going to use a lot of electrons here, my apologies! My style is to respond to specific points individually, and I find this layout easier to work with.)

So do you agree with me that the 60% figure isn't reliable, since it relies on that flawed assumption?
It's not *proof* of anything, certainly. But it's not that far out of line with the huge numbers of other suspected false claims. Either the police are structurally paranoid, or people just lie to them a lot. Maybe both. Honestly, I couldn't tell you which I believed, but in most of my life, I have not been too paranoid. I *want* to believe you're right, but for every decent person, I see many who are not so decent.

This is unfortunate. But corruption is pretty much a fact of life in this world. I like to think it's still within our scope to debate the issues, though.
Sure, but in a practical sense, I don't trust an investigation to yield much practical use. If you somehow manage to get something out of it, more power to you.

I think to a certain extent, we won't get very far towards agreement on this particular topic. Our approaches are too different. You say that "there are countless men who will accept a completely one-sided relationship"; I look at my experiences and the studies I've read and see a different picture. You separate "hate of women" from being "extremely frustrated about women"; I think both feelings involve sexism, as being "frustrated" about a group of people requires generalisation and some level of belief that the members of that group are all the same. Ultimately, we're probably both approaching the issue according to the point of view of our own gender. Which is, you know, unsurprising.
Frustration easilly leads to hate. I think that this hate being projected onto a large mass of people is the default, actually, rather than requiring a belief that all are the same. It takes effort to distinguish, especially if one finds one's prejudice confirmed over and over again. These prejudices and social memes are sometimes even taken way out of context and considered to be fundamental biological factors, and that we should cater to them as much as we can. It may express itself as sexism, but ultimately it's little more than an intellectual and emotional faillure of humans who are either unable or unwilling to evolve beyond simple tribalism. A lot of people simply like to see the world in simple terms...

There are some things you say which I will respond to directly, though. First, the idea of "having it both ways". I certainly can't speak for "women", but I can say that for myself, gender-related chivalry is unwanted - insulting, in fact. It relies on an assumption that women are helpless to do things for themselves.
That is how it originated, and I can certainly see women being offended by it. However, not every woman cares where it came from. Personally, I have met a handful of women who were, like you, offended by it. Some even made every effort to ensure it was not applied to them - to the point of cutting men out of their lives entirely.

However, and this may be yet another cultural thing, while Dutch women are extremely enthusiastic about declaring themselves independant and powerful, the majority of them still cling to traditional gender roles in specific areas. (And so do many men.) If you're curious, you should look up how Dutch women balance their careers and personal lives. Despite all the advances in women's rights that have been made in the Netherlands, Dutch women are far less independent than their american counterparts. The notion that a woman *needs* to be taken care of is considered pretty offensive by most women here, but a man who doesn't want to support a woman is still not often going to be appreciated. (This should be viewed in the context of Dutch culture having a very different work ethos. Working hard to support oneself is not by definition going to earn respect here.)

In addition, many men rely on it to be what they consider charming. I don't think it does them much good, but for some, it may be their only chance.

Second, I'm very glad to hear that you can't fathom defending rape! And I agree that hate of women is not a fundamental part of men. Misogyny is societal, and women are capable of perpetuating it too.

Third, I am encouraged to see you say this: "I myself am one of countless males on the internet who have never been with a woman, and likely never will. But I try not to let that turn into anger. People don't choose what they are attracted to, I can't hold them responsible for what they feel when they see me." This contrasts with many men on these forums, who do seem to resent women for not expressing attraction to them, and it's nice to see someone take a reasonable approach. I also happen to think that those men's resentment and sense of entitlement are off-putting and therefore likely to perpetuate the cycle of women's lack of interest, whereas the feelings you express aren't.
Sorry, but I have to disagree here. While I do not hate women, I *am* a frustrated individual. The world is not how I imagined it was, growing up. The media turned me into a hopeless romantic, only for me to wake up in an incredibly cynical and selfish society. I believe that for the most part, on a practical level, emotional commitment and reciprocity have gone out of fashion. Having a rational attitude towards one's place in society doesn't make a person more attractive. I've seen horrible misogynists, rapists, violent sociopaths, have no problems finding partners, and I know men far better than I who have never enjoyed so much as a woman's smile. There are countless men who have no better perspective than finding peace in solitude.

Fourth, I think that wanting to "criticize women" without being lumped into a group with unpleasant feelings towards women is... kind of unrealistic? Since "criticising women" as a homogeneous group relies, again, on generalisation. One can criticise individual women, of course, and sometimes tendencies among women (depending on the specifics, and as long as one can prove those tendencies and isn't relying on stereotypes) - but "criticising women" as a whole means taking a group of roughly 3.5 billion people and talking about them as if they're all the same.
Criticising women can be on an individual basis, it can be a generalization, etc. The response will often be the same, regardless of context. In a practical sense, it is very common attract an unwanted personal army by criticizing a woman. (Though it's also common for an ad-hoc counter-army to form.)

It seems from this that we have different definitions of peer pressure - I was imagining a culture-wide phenomenon while your definition requires only a group holding the same opinion. In that case, my thoughts on the false-charge-supporting people you describe are pretty much the same as your thoughts on the existence of people who support or defend rape: it seems there must be some people like that out there, but I find it impossible to fathom or understand.
A culture-wide phenomenon could find expression in peer pressure, but a specific kind of peer pressure doesn't need to be a culture-wide phenomenon.

All it takes is a different or missing sense of right and wrong. If someone is raised with the notion that up is down and down is up, they will die fighting for that notion, regardless of what gravity has to say on the matter. We were raised with a different morality, and as such we can't understand it on an emotional level.